Universalism...why not?

[JacksBratt]

In the end...........if you know scripture as well as you do, to be able to discuss and argue the points here.....................why wait and see? Why not just accept that He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and that He made the ultimate sacrifice for your sins.

Why is this even a discussion?

 

[Rajni]

Why does there have to be "bad news" in order for the "Good News" of God's immense love for us to be enough?

^This.

The King of the Universe loves us. How is this not Good Great Absolutely Fantastic News already?

 

[Rajni]

Unitarian Universalism is an ideology that prepares the world for the coming Antichrist.

Unitarian Universalism is a different thing altogether.

Here we're discussing Christian Universalism, as contrasted with Christian Partialism.

 

[Rajni]

In the end...........if you know scripture as well as you do, to be able to discuss and argue the points here.....................why wait and see? Why not just accept that He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and that He made the ultimate sacrifice for your sins.

Why is this even a discussion?

And what better way to glorify Him and His sacrifice than to accept that He might be 100% successful in executing it, as would be fitting for a King of King and Lord of Lords?

 

[The Times]

Unitarian Universalism is a different thing altogether.

Here we're discussing Christian Universalism, as contrasted with Christian Partialism.

They attract the same crowd, who claim diplomatic immunity when it comes to the commonwealth of heavenly Israel.

I am not sure that Jesus will grant them diplomatic immunity from the sins of the world that they enjoy, be it their lifestyles.

Either way......

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

One thing is certain, those who part take or aid and abet the sins of the world will have a lake view.

 

[GillDouglas]

And what better way to glorify Him and His sacrifice than to accept that He might be 100% successful in executing it, as would be fitting for a King of King and Lord of Lords?

In my opinion, this is entirely unbiblical and in no way glorifying of God, especially the work of Christ. Once a person dies, there are no more second chances. I sincerely plead with you to think about the consequences of being wrong in this line of thinking! Why not teach that God is 100% successful at bringing His own during their lifetime? Because after death, there is only judgement. (Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 20:12-15)

 

[Hillsage]

And what better way to glorify Him and His sacrifice than to accept that He might be 100% successful in executing it, as would be fitting for a King of King and Lord of Lords?

As well as being the 'shepherd of shepherds'. One who isn't going to lose MOST, but will go after...even that very last ONE. All the while the nominal church of today often proclaims; " I FOUND THE SHEPHERD/Jesus!"

 

[Light of the East]

Absolutely correct!

Might I also add that Jesus warned about hell and the coming end of days judgement in the singular more so than any old testament prophet or new testament apostle.

Please find the word "hell" for me in the original Greek so that I may believe in this also. I simply cannot find it in all my searchings of the Scriptures. But perhaps I am missing something.

 

[Light of the East]

In my opinion, this is entirely unbiblical and in no way glorifying of God, especially the work of Christ. Once a person dies, there are no more second chances. I sincerely plead with you to think about the consequences of being wrong in this line of thinking! Why not teach that God is 100% successful at bringing His own during their lifetime? Because after death, there is only judgement. (Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 20:12-15)

How do you know there is no more chance for change and repentance?

For one thing, what you are saying is that if you die with your passions undealt with, you stay that way forever? Let me give you an example:

A man hears that Christ died to give him eternal life and to free him from the slavery and power of his sins. He responds to the message with belief in his heart and makes a profession of faith in Christ, being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He begins to attend church faithfully, rejoicing in his new found faith and the fact that so many sins he easily committed are no longer enslaving him.

But.........

One sin still remains, still vexes him, still is committed on a regular basis. This causes him no amount of sadness and sometimes even despair, as he realizes that he is not yet fully holy or fully like Christ. In other words, he has a warp in his nature which is not yet totally submitted to Christ and in complete union with God.

And the man dies......

So he dies with this passion still part of his soul. Are you saying that he remains this way forever, that there is no opportunity for further change, growth into Christ, and eventually union with Him?

Think about it before you reply, please.

 

[Light of the East]

Unitarian Universalism is an ideology that prepares the world for the coming Antichrist.

Since the Unitarian Universalism ideology considers that all the sins of the world can be forgiven, then that paves the way for the man of lawlessness to give the world what it wants, the AS ABOVE SO BELOW Luciferean gospel.

However the real Jesus, the only true authority and not man, said that....

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. (Matthew 10:34-36)

This is the spiritual sword of separation, that separates the Wheat from amongst the Tares, the true disciples from amongst the false disciples.

The AntiChrist as far as the sins of the world is concerned will bring in the unity of sins, under a global Unitarian Universalism Luciferean gospel.

Why else is he called the man of lawlessness, except he comes to unite the sins of the world.

This took place in the years from Christ's death and glorious resurrection to the end of the Jewish era in AD 70 when the Temple was leveled, the Old Covenant destroyed, and the Jews killed and enslaved by the Romans.

Are you an Orthodox convert from Protestantism? You sound so much like a Protestant that it ain't funny!

 

[Light of the East]

Unitarian Universalism is a different thing altogether.

Here we're discussing Christian Universalism, as contrasted with Christian Partialism.

Thank you! Some people still don't "get it!"

 

[Light of the East]

They attract the same crowd, who claim diplomatic immunity when it comes to the commonwealth of heavenly Israel.

I am not sure that Jesus will grant them diplomatic immunity from the sins of the world that they enjoy, be it their lifestyles.

Either way......

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

One thing is certain, those who part take or aid and abet the sins of the world will have a lake view.

And you seem, along with many other hellists such as Calvinists, to take an unholy delight in mentioning this.

If you are so all-fired sure that everyone except a rare few "elect of God" are going to eternal burning, how many people have you told in the last week that they need to repent? How many have you warned that they are in danger of eternal fire?

That would be the loving thing to do, and certainly Christ-like

IF

what you say is true.

But in reading the words of Christ, I don't even see Him warning people of eternal fire. I see Him warning the Jews to whom He was sent ("I was sent to the House of Israel") to repent lest judgment fall upon them. This warning gets very intense in Matthew 23 and 24 as He absolutely excoriates the Pharisees and tells them that their house is left in desolation. He goes on to describe in detail in Matthew 24 how this will take place and how the Temple will be destroyed.

But you go ahead and show me where Jesus mentioned either "hell" or "eternal punishment." I could be missing something somewhere.

 

[Hillsage]

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

One thing is certain, those who part take or aid and abet the sins of the world will have a lake view.

Which exactly where HELL along with the last enemy DEATH is going to end up. So if hell is gone and death is destroyed???? Sulphur has never been used to torture, only to preserve or purify. Indeed the very word for "theion/sulfur" in the Greek etymologically comes from "theios/Godlike", which comes from the Greek root "theos/supreme deity". And that FIRE that's scares the pants off most orthodox pew warmers is the Greek word Pur. Guess what english word comes from that? PURE. So mix the Pur fire with supreme deity" and guess what you have.

HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Now, all of a sudden, that lake of fire takes on the same purpose of the FIRE all Christians get to experience. "He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and FIRE." "Everyone with be salted with FIRE." "He will be saved yet as though by FIRE." And all that FIRE, is the same Greek word Pur from which Purgative & Purification comes from, but not the word Punitive eternal purposeless torture.

 

[Light of the East]

Which exactly where HELL along with the last enemy DEATH is going to end up. So if hell is gone and death is destroyed. Sulphur has never been used to torture, only to preserve or purify. Indeed the very word for "theion/sulfur" in the Greek etymologically comes from "theios/Godlike", which comes from the Greek root "theos/supreme deity". And that FIRE that's scares the pants off most orthodox pew warmers is the Greek word Pur. Guess what english word comes from that? PURE. So mix the Pur fire with supreme deity" and guess what you have.

HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Now, all of a sudden, that lake of fire takes on the same purpose of the FIRE all Christians get to experience. "He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and FIRE." "Everyone with be salted with FIRE." "He will be saved yet as though by FIRE." And all that FIRE, is the same Greek word Pur from which Purgative & Purification comes from, but not the word Punitive eternal purposeless torture.

Very interesting, Hillsage, and completely in line with the understanding of the Holy Orthodox church and the afterlife. It is our God who is the fire of the next life. There is no such place as the "hell" that Augustine, Anselm of Canterbury, and the whole Western Church scared up to scare the hell (yes, deliberate pun there!) out of the massa damnata in the pews and make them behave.

I am in total agreement with you there.

 

[mkgal1]

why wait and see? Why not just accept that He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and that He made the ultimate sacrifice for your sins.

It's not about us "waiting and seeing"---it's more that we have greater hope that "all will be well" (as Julian of Norwich wrote) and that God WILL accomplish His desires in due time.

That draws me closer to Him (and, I'm presuming, that's how most feel that advocate for this belief). It also gives me a greater sense of peace when confronted with horribly evil things people do. I can truly leave it in God's hands.....(once I know innocent people aren't being harmed by these people). It also seems to make a lot of Scripture make a lot more sense than it did before---for instance:

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect [completeness] comes, the partial will pass away.

...prior to coming to this belief, I didn't quite know what to do with this verse. Now it's much fuller.....much more powerful.....more hopeful.

 

[mkgal1]

Really? That's what you think of God?

No, the fact of the matter is this....

Unrighteousness cannot exist in the presence of God without being consumed. This is why God could no longer walk in the garden with Adam and Eve.

The only way anyone can be cleansed of this unrighteousness is to have the debt paid.

The payment for this debt is death.

Christ paid the debt for everyone. However, it can only be accepted by the willingness of the receiver.

The attitude of the heart of the person, while on this earth, is the metric that is used for free will and acceptance of who Jesus is and what He has done for each person.

No.....it's not what I think of God---it seems it's what YOU think of God by putting a expiration on His love when you wrote all this (where are you even getting this "fine print" in His gift to us?):

The Bible says that every knee shall bow. It's just that for many, it will be too late.

Exactly, it's easy to believe once you have seen. All will believe, when they have died and all is revealed

 

[mkgal1]

One who isn't going to lose MOST, but will go after...even that very last ONE.

This is a very key point--and according to the "this lifetime only" camp God would be losing MOST.

 

[Mike Fleming]

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

This is a good question. My personal belief here is that God's final judgement goes beyond His feelings. God has a divine law that He established, which judges sin unless that sin has been covered by the blood of Christ and intercession has taken place. Upon death, God's dealing with sin has more to do with a courtroom illustration at this point than in a parent/child context. He can move within the parent/child context during this life. However, we can separate ourselves from his covering as in Hebrews 6:4-6 " For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God." At this point, even God's love cannot force the person to change their heart. The bible shows that once we are dead, we either ascend to heaven accompanied by angels, or we fall into hell. God does not send anyone to hell. The person makes that choice and because of His love, He does not force himself on us. Death is the point of no return. Jesus described hell in Mark 9:47 , "And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out. I know this sounds bad, but this is the word of God. In his love, he warns us because her doesn't want ANYONE to go there. So we have his warning and his patience so that we have opportunity to repent of our sins and avoid going to this place. God's love is great and His mercy is sufficient to cover any sin. But we must seek it and approach Him with a contrite heart.

 

[mkgal1]

The bible shows that once we are dead, we either ascend to heaven accompanied by angels, or we fall into hell

Where does it show that?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

...first, to answer this, one must assume that ALL souls do wish to be saved. While I'd like to think everyone would, I've encountered plenty of people who have told me that whatever the Biblical idea of happiness is....it's is something they would never want to have. I'd call this the Aesthetic Problem. That is, some people just don't have a taste for a biblical eternal happiness....and they know they never will.

It's kind of like this: God is in the place of the poor, nerdy man who thinks the beautiful girl down the street is indeed beautiful. She, on the other hand, while truly being beautiful, has no desire to be with the poor, nerdy man down the street. It's just not what she'll ever want; and it's a situation she feels she would never want to have to put up with.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid