To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[CrystalDragon]

Stop humanizing God.

God is love - so he provided all people with a way to escape his wrath. His Son Jesus

God is mercy - Those who believe in Jesus will find the mercy of God on Judgement Day

God is Just - The greatest crime any soul can commit is refusing to believe in the shed blood of God Himself. The Justice of God demands this crime be paid for. The soul that commits this act will pay for that crime, eternal punishment. Just as those who believe will receive eternal life.

God is not limited to our understanding of love or justice. God is not confined to perform anything out of any compulsion. He could very well have condemned all to death and hell, but in his love he provided a way to life. Himself! Those who refuse to believe will bear the penalty in themselves for all eternity

In that case, we have to find a new definition of "love" as we use it. God never says that he is love, only one person on the Bible said that. God in the Bible said that He is Jealous. The Bible's own definition of love—patient, kind, does not keep record of wrongs, etc. is in line with our understanding of love and is the exact opposite of what the doctrine of hell implies.

Saying that "it's merciful he doesn't send us to hell" means little if God created hell to begin with and it's implied it's our set destination unless we believe.

Greetings @pollyton
The worse woman raping serial killer does not go to hell for raping and killing.
If he goes to hell it is because he never accepted Jesus into his heart.

The unpardonable sin is Rejecting Christ

So if it is by refusing to allow Jesus to become Lord of your Life that keeps you from eternity with God.

Then it is NOT GOD that sends anyone to hell. It ultimately is truly by their own choice.
That choice being.....refused the Blood of Christ which could have saved them.

Blessings
FCJ

So someone can be a terrible person but not be punished if they accept Jesus, but someone who is a very good person but doesn't believe gets tortured forever? How does that make sense? How is that "loving"? He is that "just"?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Where would you suggest i look?

From the same page & in agreement with Strong's i posted earlier:

There is a link to the page in the blue text. I'd like you to look at that link.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

In that case, we have to find a new definition of "love" as we use it. God never says that he is love, only one person on the Bible said that. God in the Bible said that He is Jealous. The Bible's own definition of love—patient, kind, does not keep record of wrongs, etc. is in line with our understanding of love and is the exact opposite of what the doctrine of hell implies.

Saying that "it's merciful he doesn't send us to hell" means little if God created hell to begin with and it's implied it's our set destination unless we believe.





So someone can be a terrible person but not be punished if they accept Jesus, but someone who is a very good person but doesn't believe gets tortured forever? How does that make sense? How is that "loving"? He is that "just"?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit inspired the scriptures?

If you do then God did indeed inspire the scriptures and this he IS love, thus rendering your entire post moot.

If not then you have bigger issues than universalism.

 

[Daniel9v9]

First, one would have to find out if the person is rejecting Christ directly, or whether they're simply rejecting someone else's concpet thereof.

Another thing to keep in mind is that "rejecting Christ" could be a symptom of being "lost", much like coughing is a symptom of tuberculosis. Therefore, for God to withhold restoration from someone as punishment for rejecting Him would be akin to a doctor withholding medicine from a tuberculosis patient as punishment for coughing.

This is not really answering the question I posed, for in the way you put it, it becomes a question of human reasoning. If someone hates Jesus Christ, regardless of their understanding of Christ, and through sin, rebellion and disbelief rejects God, will he be saved? No. Scriptures makes absolutely no such claim, but explicitly teaches otherwise.

Your analogy of sin as a mere sickness, while it's a possible analogy (Luke 5:32), doesn't quite apply in the way you described it. For only God is good, but we are evil. Only because of God's grace and the works and merits of Christ can we be counted as righteous, through faith. Salvation is entirely from God, but damnation is entirely our fault. Is man's damnation then injustice on God's part? By no means, for it is because God is good that he punishes evil. Furthermore, he showed his grace by becoming sin for us and taking our sins - so whoever despise and rejects God's grace, knowingly or not, what other hope is there? Salvation by rejection of Christ is simply impossible and entirely unscriptural. I would challenge you to this: See if you can find any Biblical evidence, even a hint, to the effect that salvation by disbelief and rejection of Christ is possible.

The reason I'm hammering down on this is not because I wish people to suffer damnation, and I think there is value in hoping and praying for all things and people to be restored, but I hold that to teach others that even if they hate and reject God - that their sins doesn't matter - that they will still be saved, is a false gospel and very harmful, full of serious implications.

 

[HereIStand]

As much as we would like to believe otherwise, having a hope that God will save all is a hope without foundation in Scripture. Stay with the warnings of Scripture about hell, and don't rationalize based on personal feelings. Would recommend the book Christ Alone: An Evangelical Response to Rob Bell's "Love Wins" by Michael Wittmer.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

As much as we would like to believe otherwise, having a hope that God will save all is a hope without foundation in Scripture. Stay with the warnings of Scripture about hell, and don't rationalize based on personal feelings. Would recommend the book Christ Alone: An Evangelical Response to Rob Bell's "Love Wins" by Michael Wittmer.

Bingo we have a winner.

Universalism in any form is a belief that rationalizes God which is never a good thing.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Do you believe the Holy Spirit inspired the scriptures?

If you do then God did indeed inspire the scriptures and this he IS love, thus rendering your entire post moot.

If not then you have bigger issues than universalism.

Why is it that in this case "inspired" is used in a completely different meaning than any other meaning we ever use of the word "inspired"? Paintings and stories are inspired by God. How do we know the Bible isn't the same way? Especially because it took centuries to compile what was "inspired" and what wasn't. If it was "God-breathed" there would be no centuries-long debates, there would be a consensus that would only take a week or so to be reached at most, or even one meeting. Not years, let alone centuries.

And as I mentioned, God never himself said that he was love. Two people second-hand implied that God is love, but God Himself in the Bible never said he was love. In fact he said he was Jealous (he even said his name was Jealous if I recall correctly), that he was in charge of both good and evil, and that he poured out wrath. In the Bible love is defined as being patient, kind, not keeping record of wrongs, etc., all of which are the exact opposite of anything hell's existence stands for. Therefore God cannot be love by the Bible's own definition, and to say so would require us to redefine "love" both in our modern understanding and the Bible's own understanding.

 

[frettr00]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

1. There's the hope that all will be saved, not that everyone will definitely be saved.
2. Because it's everlasting.
3. You can't repent in Hell and it's eternal. If it wasn't eternal God would've said otherwise in the Bible. God wouldn't say it's eternal then later say well sorry I lied it really isn't eternal, you can come out now.

 

[SkyWriting]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

The torments are self-inflicted and voluntary. There is no outside tormentor.

 

[CrystalDragon]

The torments are self-inflicted and voluntary. There is no outside tormentor.

But no one would choose to be put in a place of torture for eternity.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Why is it that in this case "inspired" is used in a completely different meaning than any other meaning we ever use of the word "inspired"? Paintings and stories are inspired by God. How do we know the Bible isn't the same way? Especially because it took centuries to compile what was "inspired" and what wasn't. If it was "God-breathed" there would be no centuries-long debates, there would be a consensus that would only take a week or so to be reached at most, or even one meeting. Not years, let alone centuries.

And as I mentioned, God never himself said that he was love. Two people second-hand implied that God is love, but God Himself in the Bible never said he was love. In fact he said he was Jealous (he even said his name was Jealous if I recall correctly), that he was in charge of both good and evil, and that he poured out wrath. In the Bible love is defined as being patient, kind, not keeping record of wrongs, etc., all of which are the exact opposite of anything hell's existence stands for. Therefore God cannot be love by the Bible's own definition, and to say so would require us to redefine "love" both in our modern understanding and the Bible's own understanding.

So you deny the inspiration of the scriptures then... that explains a lot and is not overly surprising. I wish you well

 

[CrystalDragon]

So you deny the inspiration of the scriptures then... that explains a lot and is not overly surprising. I wish you well

You didn't really address my points though.

 

[SkyWriting]

But no one would choose to be put in a place of torture for eternity.

There is no outside influence causing people
not to love God. They choose that.

Imagine sitting in Heaven dealing with God, you don't believe in.
Communing with Him. It would be pure insanity for you.
That would be mean to subject non-believers to that.

Let's say the Pope is God and I have to listen to polish sermons
for eternity and eat with him. But I don't believe he is God.
That would be mean.

Hell is not being with God.

 

[CrystalDragon]

There is no outside influence causing people
not to love God. They choose that.

Imagine sitting in Heaven dealing with God, you don't believe in.
Communing with Him. It would be pure insanity for you.
That would be mean to subject non-believers to that.

Many people though I'm sure would believe if they saw adequate evidence for God's existence. If they could, I'm sure many would want to go to heaven. Why would the only other choice be eternal conscious torment. We humans have a more humane and just system of punishment than that.

 

[Adstar]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

If the catholic church believes in universalisim then the cathoilic church is wrong.... But when i was a catholic i never heard my priest preaching universalism at all..

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

Because God said in His Word that they will be in torment for ever and ever.. God cannot lie so therefore they shall be in torment in the lake of fire for ever and ever...

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

The WORD of God which is the inspired word of God tells us that it shall not happen...

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

No such thing as proof of universalism in the Bible....

 

[ByTheSpirit]

You didn't really address my points though.

That has everything to do with your points. And if you deny the inspiration of scriptures then no scripture I give you will mean anything to you.

Funny that you have no problem agreeing that God is a jealous God, which is in scripture written by man. But you deny God is love, as written in the same scripture just by another man, the very man that was "loved by Jesus"

That is the situation and I cannot help you with that. You deny some scriptures while accepting only those that fit your POV.

Until you accept them all as equally valid and see them as such, nothing I or anyone else can say to you will matter. We will only be chasing each other around the proverbial tree.

I have no interest in doing so.

 

[SkyWriting]

Many people though I'm sure would believe if they saw adequate evidence for God's existence. If they could, I'm sure many would want to go to heaven. Why would the only other choice be eternal conscious torment. We humans have a more humane and just system of punishment than that.

Existence is adequate.
The Cosmos couldn't
be much bigger, could it?

Science tells us that things
don't just appear in a vacuum
because the vacuum wants it so badly.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Many people though I'm sure would believe if they saw adequate evidence for God's existence. If they could, I'm sure many would want to go to heaven. Why would the only other choice be eternal conscious torment. We humans have a more humane and just system of punishment than that.

People had God in the flesh walking amongst them and openly condemned him and denied him. Not sure if this is an adequate way to view things.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Existence is adequate.
The Cosmos couldn't
be much bigger, could it?

True, but even disregarding an argument that the cosmos may have somehow come about by natural means, it might be argued that though this is evidence for a God, it's not adequate evidence for specifically the Christian God.

 

[SkyWriting]

True, but even disregarding an argument that the cosmos may have somehow come about by natural means, it might be argued that though this is evidence for a God, it's not adequate evidence for specifically the Christian God.

Nature follows laws.....and we all know how laws are created.
Laws don't just write themselves.
Jesus SEEMS to have had his head on straight.
That or He was insane as a fruitloop.