To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[CrystalDragon]

That has everything to do with your points. And if you deny the inspiration of scriptures then no scripture I give you will mean anything to you.

Funny that you have no problem agreeing that God is a jealous God, which is in scripture written by man. But you deny God is love, as written in the same scripture just by another man, the very man that was "loved by Jesus"

That is the situation and I cannot help you with that. You deny some scriptures while accepting only those that fit your POV.

Until you accept them all as equally valid and see them as such, nothing I or anyone else can say to you will matter. We will only be chasing each other around the proverbial tree.

I have no interest in doing so.

Point is, even if those Scriptures weren't inspired, one is said to be a claim by God, which contradicts a claim made by a human that God is love. Even if it's not a complete factual account (again, why use "inspired" in a completely different meaning than normal?) So in the context of the Scriptures regardless of the truth of it one would expect it to be consistent.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Point is, even if those Scriptures weren't inspired, one is said to be a claim by God, which contradicts a claim made by a human that God is love. Even if it's not a complete factual account (again, why use "inspired" in a completely different meaning than normal?) So in the context of the Scriptures regardless of the truth of it one would expect it to be consistent.

But the two are not opposed to each other, that is the point. I am jealous for my wife, and that in no way negates my love for her. Even from a human POV it is completely valid. How much more from God's POV which far transcends what we can even comprehend?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

God is a jealous God because He is love.

See the tendency for humans is to bring these ideas down to a human perspective which isn't in itself a bad thing because we want to understand God.

But we cannot reduce him to our limitations of understanding. That is the danger and that is when we "create a god in our own image".

Yahweh exists outside of all reasoning and understanding. He is above all things.

His eternal attributes may be unlimited, he has only chosen to reveal a few of them to us. None of them are opposed to the other, and he doesn't suspend one in order to operate in another.

So when He says, I am holy, he doesn't suspend his love in his holiness. Nor does his jealousy cause his love or holiness to cease.

Because God is love, he is jealous.

From a human POV, my love for my wife causes me to want her to only love me. Her love for me should mean her devotion is only towards me. All her actions and thoughts should be aimed towards expressing her love for me. So she will not cheat on me by even talking to another man in an adulterous way. She will not violate my trust in her by defrauding me or etc. You get the point. If I am disposed to my wife in a certain way how much more is God to us?

His love demands that He be jealous for us. He wants us! The phrase "Jesus didn't want heaven without us" is a statement both of his love and his jealousy. His jealousy said, " I want a relationship with all my creation" and he demonstrated his love by sacrificing himself to make that happen. So neither is opposed to the other, they work in unison. As all his attributes do.

This is why it is important to understand the entirety of scriptures before we just create a doctrine that in itself creates a new god in human form. That is universalism in a nutshell.

 

[Code Phox]

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

Well, the Roman Catholic Church also worship Mary, confess their sins to a 'father' priest rather than Jesus and idolize the pope rather than scripture. I'm not a Catholic, but a Christian who follows the teaching of Jesus Christ and old testament.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

"The path to destruction is wide and the path to heaven is narrow".
I trust God's judgment of myself and others is Just and is justified by him being the un-created one.
If I am correct, our hearts allegiance goes to God first and our neighbors second. Assuming someone goes into everlasting punishment from the judgment of how someone uses their freewill by the entity who created them... It's not my place to question as his wisdom is far greater than mine. Look around you and see how great God is

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

What if you stop spiritual growth after you die? I assume, close to everyone would repent so they could be freed from their punishment.. God doesn't what to force people to follow him, I currently follow him because it's simply the correct thing to do. If it takes experiencing hell for someone to follow God then do they really serve God, with their heart?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

You can hope for anything you want, doesn't mean it will happen. You can also wish anything you want, but it won't be granted unless it comes from God. I believe God loves his creations. God wants to be his creations God, not his creations serve other Gods or make themselves Gods.

Hell for me is the concept of a place completely cut off from God, where Heaven is a place where he is fully present. How you live your life and what loyalty is found in your heart when you die might be what's needed to determine your destination. Do you serve God? Will you go to heaven or hell?

 

[CrystalDragon]

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

Well, the Roman Catholic Church also worship Mary, confess their sins to a 'father' priest rather than Jesus and idolize the pope rather than scripture. I'm not a Catholic, but a Christian who follows the teaching of Jesus Christ and old testament.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

"The path to destruction is wide and the path to heaven is narrow".
I trust God's judgment of myself and others is Just and is justified by him being the un-created one.
If I am correct, our hearts allegiance goes to God first and our neighbors second. Assuming someone goes into everlasting punishment from the judgment of how someone uses their freewill by the entity who created them... It's not my place to question as his wisdom is far greater than mine. Look around you and see how great God is

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

What if you stop spiritual growth after you die? I assume, close to everyone would repent so they could be freed from their punishment.. God doesn't what to force people to follow him, I currently follow him because it's simply the correct thing to do. If it takes experiencing hell for someone to follow God then do they really serve God, with their heart?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

You can hope for anything you want, doesn't mean it will happen. You can also wish anything you want, but it won't be granted unless it comes from God. I believe God loves his creations. God wants to be his creations God, not his creations serve other Gods or make themselves Gods.

Hell for me is the concept of a place completely cut off from God, where Heaven is a place where he is fully present. How you live your life and what loyalty is found in your heart when you die might be what's needed to determine your destination. Do you serve God? Will you go to heaven or hell?

We as Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. We pray to her and the saints for intercession.

Think of it this way. See God as the CEO of a company, Mary and the saints as an employee, and us as customers. It's easier for a customer to request that an employee talks to the CEO on their behalf rather than to talk to the CEO themselves.

Also, isn't the Catholic Church the one that was directly founded by Peter?

 

[Ron Gurley]

Methinks the OP confuses:

A> the HOPE/WANT/DESIRE of theTRI-UNE GOD that each Man be saved

WITH:

B> the FACT that ONLY John 3 as explained in Ephesian 2 TRUE BELIEVERS are saved.

RCC "HOPE":

The new, post-Vatican II Catechism of the Catholic Church also gives us to >>HOPE<< that all will be saved.
• 1058 The Church >>prays<< that no one should be lost :'Lord, let me never be parted from you.' If it is true that no one can save himself,
it is also true that God >>'desires<< all men to be saved' (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him 'all things are possible' (Mt 19:26).
• 1821 We can therefore >>hope<< in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.
In every circumstance, each one of us should >>hope<<, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven,
as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In >>hope<<, the Church>> prays<< for 'all men to be saved.'

The new Roman Missal and Divine Office do too.
• Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the >>hope<< of rising again;
bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all. (Eucharistic Prayer II)
• Almighty God, we recall how you sent your angel to the centurion Cornelius to show him the way of salvation. Open our hearts to >>work more zealously for<< the salvation of the world, so that your Church may bring us and all men into your presence. (Divine Office, Tuesdays, Afternoon Prayer)

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor, the head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales,
recently expressed his >>hope<< that all will be saved in an interview with a Catholic newspaper.
• We're not bound to believe that anybody's there (in hell), let's face it... I cannot think of heaven without thinking of being in communion with all the saints and with all the people I've loved on this earth... I hope I will be surprised in heaven, I think I will be.
ref: http://tentmaker.org/articles/universal_salvation_roman_catholic.html

God's WANT:

ONLY If the unsaved spiritual man answers the call / draw of God the Holy Spirit by ACCEPTING the Gift of Grace through spirit-led Faith / Belief will he be saved

God "wants to" AND "gives" the opportunity to
be "saved" for ALL who truly and spiritually seek Him and His spiritually ACCEPT His Loving Provisions.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (4-5) (NASB)
...(God) who desires all men
to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is
one God, and
one mediator also
between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus,
who gave Himself as a ransom for all,
the testimony given at the proper time...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing (wanting) that ANY should perish,
but that ALL should come to repentance.("turn to God")

But there is always a CHOICE for the "wicked" also.
Spiritual REJECTION of the TRI-UNE GOD before death leads to eternal and infinite spiritual SEPARATION from Him in the realm of the "Lake of Fire"
UNBELIEVERS will always be "dead in their sins / imprisoned by their "sin nature" / separated from God and His own / UN-forgiven!

2 Corinthians 4:4 (NIV)
The god of this age (satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB); SEE ALSO: Rev. 21:8
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (LAMB'S) "Book of Life" (believers),
he (unbelievers) was thrown into the "lake of fire".

"wicked"
occurs 314 times in 300 verses in the NASB...that's a lot of "wickedness" ! BUT only 11 times in the NT!

The Matthew 13 prophecy seems to harmonize with the one in Matthew 24..." the end of the age"

Matthew 13: 36-43....Jesus Judgment: The Parable of the Tares Explained
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at "the end of the age".
The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and
they will gather out of His kingdom (on earth?)
all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, (wicked!)and will throw them into the "furnace of fire"; ("lake of fire"?)
in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
He who has ears, let him hear.

Acts 3: 11-26...Peter’s Second Sermon...bottom line
26 For you (Nation Israel) FIRST (before the Gentiles), God raised up His Servant and
sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.” (re-pent = turn around + re-think)

 

[Der Alte]

If something is "forever" then no "and ever" can be added to it. It doesn't make sense.

Actually it does make sense when one understands that in Jewish speech a word was often repeated for emphasis. In E.W. Bullinger's Figures of Speech in the Bible this figure of speech is called Epezeuxis. "It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it."

"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation":
Chapter Five
Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
The Eon of the Eons, A. E. Knoch
Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; (Rev.14:11)
Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; (Rev.14:11)
Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, (Rev.14:11)
Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; (Rev.14:11)
Concordant Literal Version
And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. (Rev.14:11)
And many others likewise, without the self-contradictory "forever AND ever".

Let us review some highly accredited Greek language resources.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον
- Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. ​

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[Monk Brendan]

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

While I admit that God wants all men saved, and I would like all men saved, God WILL NOT contravene man's free will. I actively chose to cooperate with Jesus 40 years ago. My choice, my free will. The path has been painful, but not without some rewards. But if a man chooses to walk away from the standard that God has set, then, when he dies, he goes before God. And God will say to him,
"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

BTW, there is NO part of the Catholic Communion of Churches that teaches, or has ever taught universal salvation.

 

[CrystalDragon]

While I admit that God wants all men saved, and I would like all men saved, God WILL NOT contravene man's free will. I actively chose to cooperate with Jesus 40 years ago. My choice, my free will. The path has been painful, but not without some rewards. But if a man chooses to walk away from the standard that God has set, then, when he dies, he goes before God. And God will say to him,
"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

BTW, there is NO part of the Catholic Communion of Churches that teaches, or has ever taught universal salvation.

But God determined everything that will happen. Free will can't really exist.

 

[PropheticTimes]

Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Der Alte]

The contempt that is held for them might be everlasting, but this passage says nothing about everlasting life.

Daniel 12:2, "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, ...to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel was written about 700 years BC as I read it, it does not say that those who awake to to shame and everlasting contempt will die again or be saved.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

This is what makes the fact that Christianity isn't the only religion with a 'hell' rather unsettling. After all, what if it turns out that Islam is the True Religion™? All those who had thought they'd escaped the Christian hell would end up in Islam's hell instead (and from what little I've read, it's pretty awful).


Those who felt certain that they themselves were going to heaven, but that their loved ones weren't, would probably have a problem with it.


Jesus conquered death at the cross, right?


Technically, it's about what we believe God says. As one can see, there are variations on that theme.


"Love me or burn in hell forever" doesn't sound forceful?


God created a hell to begin with that people would allegedly send themselves there.


And mercy triumphs over judgment.

Exactly. Given all the potential for suffering on this plane of existence, just what would hell accomplish? What would be the point, if it's endless (meaning fruitless)?

How about the testimonies of those who allegedly spent time in hell and came back to tell us all about it?

I read of one near-death (or maybe it was absolute clinical-death) experience where an individual who was formerly a real pain to get along with was running through the hospital with flames all around her, crying "Fire, fire!". When she was revived, she was changed for the better. She wasn't purged, something was purged from her.

God is able to remove a tumor without having to kill the entire person, as Christian Partialism would have us think via the hell-thing.


First, one would have to find out if the person is rejecting Christ directly, or whether they're simply rejecting someone else's concpet thereof.

Another thing to keep in mind is that "rejecting Christ" could be a symptom of being "lost", much like coughing is a symptom of tuberculosis. Therefore, for God to withhold restoration from someone as punishment for rejecting Him would be akin to a doctor withholding medicine from a tuberculosis patient as punishment for coughing.

It's been said that we're not punished for our sins, but by our sins.

Actually, that's a myth. Some bibles don't mention "hell" at all.

Those testimonies are rare first of all so it's best to be saved now, and some when you listen to theim clearly made up. But for those that are true possibly usually the individual when you hear it wasn't in there for long they usually just have a vision of hell or if they are in it get a taste. I think the OP is referring to universiliasm where someone who's been in there an hour + or even years can get out.

 

[claninja]

The scripture does not say destroyed as done away with or non existing

Actually it does.

The greek word used in Matthew 10:28 is ἀπολέσαι. This word means to fully and utterly destroy, cut off completely, permanent destruction, to cancel out.

Now if the greek word ἀπώλειαν was used, which means destruction but does not imply annihilation, then what your saying would be correct. However, that word isn't used in this verse

 

[Mark Corbett]

I grew up believing that God will torment the unrighteous forever. I even defended this view to others. But after much study of the Bible, I came to see that the Bible teaches that the unrighteous will eventually be completely destroyed and burned up. This view is often called annihilationism. I preached a two part sermon on this which many have found helpful. Here is part 1:

 

[claninja]

The Matthew 13 prophecy seems to harmonize with the one in Matthew 24..." the end of the age"

Hebrews 9:26 helps us know when the full end of the ages occurred.

Matthew 13:40 (YLT)
`As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,

Hebrews 9:26 (YTL)
since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;

 

[aiki]

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

The Bible does not teach universalism. And Scripture's plain teaching on the reality of eternal, conscious torment in hell eradicates any ground upon which one might try to erect a universalist doctrine.

Matthew 13:40-42
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:11-14
11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.
12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Revelation 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:44-46
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

And so on.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

Because "everlasting" means "without end" or "permanently enduring." Besides, there is the problem of imperfect creatures satisfying God's demand for a perfect atonement for sin. Imperfection cannot produce perfection. No unrepentant, Christ-rejecting sinner will ever be able to atone for their sins in the manner in which the Lamb of God has. But this is what the sinner in hell is left to do - for all of eternity.

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

You don't have to assume people will go into eternal torment in hell. The Bible is quite clear that the majority of people will end up there.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NKJV)
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Hell is not a place of remediation; it is a place of punishment. God is not intending to produce repentance in the unrepentant wicked in hell nor does He care if repentance occurs. Hell is about the meting out of the just and wrathful punishment of God upon the sin of the wicked.

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

The plain declaration of Scripture that denies such "hope."

 

[Petros2015]

Has anybody else considered the way in which black hole theory might relate to this subject?
An object that falls into a black hole faces eternal destruction and yet simultaneously it exists in a state stretched between the event horizon and the point of singularity.

Yep. Time slows too as you get into high gravity field. From the perspective of everyone else you'd be falling for Eternity.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Can you be hopeful of universalism

I can hope for universalism but the Bible does not teach universalism. The Bible teaches annihilation because there are lots of scriptures that talk about total destruction. You have to look at how many times the Bible talks about a subject and I do not know of any scriptures that talks about universalism. Everything seems to hinge on the one scripture that talks about the lake of fire and the second death that takes place at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. So whatever torment takes place I would think that could not last more than 1,000 years. What the Bible talks about the most is God's love for us and His desire for all to be saved. Only we do have free will, so we have to decide for ourselves. God does not make the decision for us.

 

[claninja]

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I would argue this has to do with the judgment of Israel because the context leading up to the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 21-24 is about the judgment of Israel.
Matthew 21:33-45 = parable of wicked tenants: destruction of Israel and kingdom going to another nation
Matthew 22:1-14 = parable of marriage feast: destruction of Israel and kingdom going to others
Matthew 23:1-39 = woes to Pharisees and Jerusalem for killing the prophets.
Matthew 24: prediction of jerusalem temple destruction and coming of son of man which will happen during the disciple's generation

Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27 all tell us that the son of man/kingdom of God will come before some of Jesus' disciples taste death. We also know that Christ is seated at the right hand of God on his throne.

Sheep= Gentiles and remnant elect Jews; Those who did not pursue righteousness but did obtain it. Notice the sheep's humble response in the parable of the sheep and goats. They did not even know they were doing righteousness for God. This fulfills what Isaiah 65:1 and what Paul says in Romans 9-11. T

Matthew 25:37-38 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
Romans 9:30
That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
Romans 10:20
“I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

Goats=hardened Israel; Those who pursued the law, but did not obtain righteousness. Notice the goat's self righteous response below. They pursued righteousness, but did not obtain it. Paul explains in this Romans 9-11

Matthew 25:44
Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
Romans 9:31
but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.

My point is that this parable, when taken in context, is not about a future time from us, but about the end of the age/world and judgment for Israel as God's chose people.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Because "everlasting" means "without end" or "permanently enduring."

No it does not. If you look the word up in the original language it means until the end of this age. Or even the end of the Ages. Even science does not believe in anything being eternal and without end. That was a theory that came and went. There is a beginning and an end and God knows the end from the beginning. That is why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.