To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[Ron Gurley]

"UNIVERSALISM" is a false docrine, based on snippets of Scripture taken out of context!

"Christian Universalism" is the theological position that: ALL of mankind will ultimately be "saved" through Jesus whether or not spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF by Grace leads to salvation in this life.
It claims that God's qualities require that ALL people be saved and that "eternal punishment" is a false doctrine.There is no distinction between those who spiritually ACCEPT God and REJECT God.
Salvation is not from "hell" and eternal spiritual separation / death, but Salvation is ONLY from sin.

This erroneous doctrine is contrary to the very heart of orthodox Christ-following.

John 3: 17-18, 36
...For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might be SAVED THROUGH Him.
He who BELIEVES in Him is not judged; (spiritually)
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten (not made. unique epitome) Son of God...
He who BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life;
BUT he who does not obey the Son (to believe) will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Salvation is a spiritual CHOICE: to ACCEPT or REJECT the spiritual CALLING/DRAWING of God.
Not all will be saved , although He WISHES it so. And God FORE-KNOWS but does NOT irrevocably PRE-DETERMINE who will be John 3 + Ephesians 2 saved.

God spiritually calls/draws/knocks to ALL.
EACH Man's spirit must accept or reject.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

1 Chronicles 28:9...KING David to wise son Solomon
“As for you, my son Solomon,
know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
IF you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
BUT if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

God "sees" the spirits of Mankind in TWO PILES!

2 Cor. 6 (NASB)...Paul: commending BELIEVERS!
14 Do not be bound together (YOKED!) with unbelievers; for what partnership have
1. righteousness and lawlessness, or what
2. fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what
3. harmony has Christ with Belial, or
4.what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or
5. what agreement has the temple of God with idols?
For we (believers) are the temple of the living God

 

[Daniel9v9]

There is no hope outside of Christ. Abraham didn't know Christ until Christ went to Abraham after Abraham was already dead. And all the other old testament people who died before Christ. And didn't Jesus go preach to spirits after he died?

It's written that Abraham was credited righteous on account of his faith in God - this is important for two reasons: (1) his faith is in the Lord (2) his faith is apart from works; and there is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism. With this in mind, whoever rejects God - will they have life? No, they are already condemned. John 3:18

The key point here is that the OT people had faith in God's promise of salvation, namely His Word (who is Jesus), but for someone who rejects God's grace through sin and rebellion, how can he have life? Scripture teaches no such thing and it's harmful to teach otherwise.

 

[Ron Gurley]

POST#98: "That theology came from the mind of man, not from the mind of God."

NO! That TRUE DOCTRINE came from rightly dividing the "word of truth"...The BIBLE!

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB)
But a "natural"(unsaved) man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him;
and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually appraised.(discerned)

 

[ClementofA]

OP: Q2: "...why then can't they (un-believers)... come out of "everlasting punishment"?

A2: Because the all powerful and all everything God has sentenced them to eternal spiritual SEPARATION from Him and His "heavenly spiritual realm". They are in a spiritual PRISON!

Those are your words. Where does Scripture say God can't change His mind? Has God ever changed His mind before? Yes, He has. So what's stopping Him from doing it again?

I'm not sure what your objection is here. Just to clarify. I am not aware of any scripture which states that the dietary laws are everlasting. Even if there is such a scripture Jesus is God and can abrogate anything He chooses. I quoted the scripture which does abrogate the dietary laws. Peter's vision, Act 10, and Paul's writings support that.

People can hope for anything they want that does not mean that it is scriptural or that it will happen. Where did Jesus teach that everyone would be saved, no matter what or that sinners would be annihilated?

If, as you say, Jesus can abrogate (annul) anything He chooses, then He can annul or cancel the threat of everlasting punishment. Assuming what you've said is Scriptural, then you have Scriptural backing for a hope that all will be saved.

Then even those who believe in everlasting punishment can hope for universal salvation, just like the Catholic church does. Because, according to you, God can abrogate anything He chooses. That includes everlasting punishment.

So do you have hope that all will be saved? If not, why not?

Is it Biblical to separate the moral law from the other parts of the Law?

 

[ClementofA]

Posts 1/5" "God will/will not change His "mind"

This is erroneous theologically!

The many attributes / character traits / nature of the TRI-UNE GOD which are found in the Bible and spirit-led writings!

1. Existent
2. Unified
3. Simple...Holy...Righteous...perfectly Good...omnibenevolence
4. Infinite
5. Eternal
6. Unchanging and unchangeable CHARACTER + attributes
7. All Present (spiritually available)
8. All Sovereign (supreme rule over all)
9. All Knowing (omniscience)
10. All powerful (omnipotence)
11. Perfectly JUST
12. Perfectly LOVING / Merciful
13. Perfectly TRUE / Truthful
14. Perfectly FREE
15. Perfectly separate and pure

"He delights in unchanging love"
"..Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
...The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind...
...Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it...
(“ THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, ‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);

God is not dead, asleep, or changing / changeable. He is IMMUTABLE!

Perhaps they will listen and each one will turn back from his evil way, and I will change my mind concerning the calamity that I intend to bring on them because of their evil deeds.”—Jeremiah 26:3.

 

[ClementofA]

Why don't you look for yourself and then get back to me with your comments. Daniel 12:2 Interlinear: 'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

Strong's most times goes down to the root word, see the little (e) on the page. Yup, variations of that root word.

Sorry to share with you that Strong's is not the end-all-be-all of Bible language.

Where would you suggest i look?

From the same page & in agreement with Strong's i posted earlier:

Brown-Driver-Briggs
עוֺלָם439 noun masculine long duration, antiquity, futurity; —

From the same page again:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time,
Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare netsach, ad.

Gesenius' Lexicon, much the same as the others:

Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)

According to the following page:

"Koehler & Baumgartner's "The Hebrew & Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament," volume 1 gives the definition of, "long time, duration."

Jehovah's Witness Research Blog: Micah 5:2 & Jesus' Eternal Origins

 

[friend of]

Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Anguspure]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Has anybody else considered the way in which black hole theory might relate to this subject?
An object that falls into a black hole faces eternal destruction and yet simultaneously it exists in a state stretched between the event horizon and the point of singularity.
I prefer to think that what the Bible promises as the penalty for sin, which is death, is exactly that, and that eternal destruction is exactly that: destruction for eternity as opposed to eternal life in a nasty place. And yet when I consider this metaphysical aspect of the universe (black holes) something niggles me about it all.

 

[Anguspure]

Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The contempt that is held for them might be everlasting, but this passage says nothing about everlasting life.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Post #106: "Where does Scripture say God can't change His mind?"

Wrong question. God CAN change his method or economy of dealing with Man (E>G> OT vs. NT). because He is all everything...Sovreign. God responds to prayer, worship, and praise from His "children", e.g.

BUT His spiritual characteristics and attributes are:
UNCHANGING / UNCHANGEABLE / IMMUTABLE.
Otherwise, we cannot TRUST + OBEY!

I REPEAT:

"He delights in unchanging love"
Micah 7:18-19

"..Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
1 Samuel 15:29

Psalm 110:4
The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind

Hebrews 7:21
(“ THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, ‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);

 

[Ron Gurley]

Re: Post #107:

Jeremiah 26:3 (NASB)
‘Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.’

that I may repent...Hebrew 5162...nacham...to be sorry, console oneself,...comfort, be comforted

NOT CHANGE MIND!

 

[ClementofA]

Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;

CLOT
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."

The Hebrew word for eonian above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations
in the OT & other writings.

Scriptural Evidence of Universalism

 

[Ron Gurley]

When you get to heaven, look for me holding a sign saying: "Universalism vs. Jesus' sayings: WHO WINS?"

 

[GingerBeer]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Why does it matter to you what other people believe? If the bible is sufficient for you then what people say ought not matter.

 

[Kiwi Christian]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

Umm, the Bible says so.

HELL.

1. GEHENNA 1067 referred to the continually burning rubbish dump on the south west side of Jerusalem, known as the valley of the sons of Hinnom (or Tophet). Jesus used the word "Gehenna" to describe the place of everlasting punishment because hell is a place of filth and stink, a place of smoke and pain, a place of everlasting fire and suffering. This garbage dump was likened to hell. It is used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment of the lost. It occurs twelve times in the New Testament. It is the ultimate hell of fire. It is the same as the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14,15).
Matthew 5:22 “whosoever shall say, “Thou fool”, shall be in danger of hell fire” (gehenna of the fire).
Matthew 5:29 “And if thy right eye offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 5:30 “And if thy right hand offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 10:28 “...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”(gehenna).
Matthew 18:9 “And if thine eye offend thee, ... rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (gehenna).
Matthew 23:15 “Pharisees, ... ye make him twofold more the child of hell (gehenna) than yourselves.”
Matthew 23:33 “Ye serpents,... how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (gehenna).
Mark 9:43 “And if thy hand offend thee, ... two hands to go into hell (gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched.”
Mark 9:45 “And if thy foot offend thee, ... two feet to be cast into hell (gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched.”
Mark 9:47 “And if thine eye offend thee, ... two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (gehenna of fire).
Luke 12:5 “Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell” (gehenna).
James 3:6 “the tongue is ... set on fire of hell” (set on fire by gehenna).

2. HADES 86 is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell (gehenna), the Lake of Fire. It is where unsaved departed spirits reside. Luke 16:23. Hades never denotes the physical grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost. Hades occurs 10 times in the New Testament, and Sheol, the Old Testament equivalent occurs 59 times.
Hades is associated with privation, detention and just punishment of the unsaved dead. Matthew 11:23 “Thou, Capernaum...shalt be brought down to hell” (hades). Luke 10:15 Hades here expresses Capernaum's absolute overthrow, from pride to humiliation.Matthew 16:18 “The gates of hell (hades) shall not prevail against it” (the churches’ attack). Luke 16:19-31 “And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments 931 (punishment)” v.23. Hades here has two compartments, close to each other, yet different. Acts 2:27 “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades).” Acts 2:31 “That his (Christ's) soul was not left in hell (hades).”
Christ here descended into the underworld of the departed (Ephesians 4:9,10), to take the believers in it (eg: thief on the cross) up to heaven.
Believers now go to heaven at death, while unbelievers still go to hades at death, a place of punishment. Revelation 1:18 “I (Christ) ... have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”
Revelation 6:8 “a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and hell (hades) followed with him.” Hades here is personified as the temporary destiny of the unsaved.
Revelation 20:13 “death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them.”
Revelation 20:14 “death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire.” Note: Fire is used 27 times in the New Testament to describe the after-death punishment of unbelievers and of demons. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Matthew 13:42, 50 “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.” Matthew 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43,45,47 “cast into fire unquenchable, hell fire.” Isaiah 66:24 “... look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.”
Mark9:44,46,48. Isaiah 33:14 “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with the everlasting burnings?” Matthew 18:8 “Two hands or two feet be cast into everlasting fire.”
Matthew 25:41 “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
and his angels.” Jude 7 “Sodom and Gomorrha ... an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Literally: of fire eternal, the penalty undergoing).
Revelation 19:20 “Beast, .. false prophet, ... and them that worshipped his image.
These were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.” Revelation 20:10 “the devil ... shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (for the ages of the ages).
Revelation 20:14,15 and Rev. 21:8 “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 14:10,11 “tormented with fire and brimstone ... the smoke of their torment
ascends up for ever and ever (for ages of ages), and they have no rest
(respite) day nor night...”
3. SHEOL 7585 is hades of the Old Testament. In Hebrew, it means the depth, abyss, pit, world of the dead, underworld. It occurs 66 times in the Old Testament (grave 31 times, hell 30 times, pit 3 times). Though all Old Testament people went to the grave, the souls of some will receive punishment in sheol. Numbers 16:30 “Korah, Dathan and Abiram went down into the pit.”Psalm 9:17 “The wicked shall be turned into hell (sheol).”
4. TARTARUS 5020 is the deepest abyss of Hades; a place where evil angels are imprisoned in torment, awaiting judgment and everlasting punishment. 2 Peter 2:4 is its only reference in the Bible. “If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

 

[A_Thinker]

What did the Pharisees see? Certainly not the resurrected Christ walking through walls.

They saw the blind seeing, the deaf hearing, the lame walking, the diseased healed, the demon-possessed demion free and in their right mind, dead men walking, etc. They saw Jesus preaching spiritual healing to the people.

They saw all of this ... so much so, that they stooped to attribute these GOOD WORKS ... to the Devil/Beelzebub ... rather than to the one Whom their own scripture prophsied would come ...

Luke 4:16-21
16 - And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 - And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 - The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 - To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 - And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 - And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Just remember that the Lord Jesus spoke far more about hell than about heaven; it was by way of warning.

 

[Rajni]

Eternity is a long time to be wrong and was hoping for an "if".

This is what makes the fact that Christianity isn't the only religion with a 'hell' rather unsettling. After all, what if it turns out that Islam is the True Religion™? All those who had thought they'd escaped the Christian hell would end up in Islam's hell instead (and from what little I've read, it's pretty awful).

Heaven is eternal
Hell is eternal

Now IF you knew for sure you were going to heaven, you would have no problem with the word eternal.

Those who felt certain that they themselves were going to heaven, but that their loved ones weren't, would probably have a problem with it.

DEATH is eternal

Jesus conquered death at the cross, right?

It's really not about what I believe, it is about what God says.

Technically, it's about what we believe God says. As one can see, there are variations on that theme.

God will never force himself or his love on anyone

"Love me or burn in hell forever" doesn't sound forceful?

God Does NOT send anyone to hell.
People make that choice on their own.

God created a hell to begin with that people would allegedly send themselves there.

Exactly! He did all this "to show mercy on them all."

And mercy triumphs over judgment.

I experience quite a bit of personal torment. I have Dr. diagnosed clinical depression and anxiety. That is it's own hell, believe me.

Exactly. Given all the potential for suffering on this plane of existence, just what would hell accomplish? What would be the point, if it's endless (meaning fruitless)?

2. Because there's no indication whatsoever in the Bible or just in general that they come out.

How about the testimonies of those who allegedly spent time in hell and came back to tell us all about it?

Well, I don't think it's hell like only men can imagine hell (i.e. to bring pain out of revenge). But I do think it will be a time of purging and refining, which is painful in spiritual way. No one can convince me that God's punishment is anything but corrective and for good.

I read of one near-death (or maybe it was absolute clinical-death) experience where an individual who was formerly a real pain to get along with was running through the hospital with flames all around her, crying "Fire, fire!". When she was revived, she was changed for the better. She wasn't purged, something was purged from her.

God is able to remove a tumor without having to kill the entire person, as Christian Partialism would have us think via the hell-thing.

How can someone who in sin and rebellion reject Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior have life? What hope is there outside Jesus Christ? Can anyone find any part of Scripture that teaches that if we reject Christ, we will have life?

First, one would have to find out if the person is rejecting Christ directly, or whether they're simply rejecting someone else's concpet thereof.

Another thing to keep in mind is that "rejecting Christ" could be a symptom of being "lost", much like coughing is a symptom of tuberculosis. Therefore, for God to withhold restoration from someone as punishment for rejecting Him would be akin to a doctor withholding medicine from a tuberculosis patient as punishment for coughing.

Probably not going to happen. But there will be a punishment for sure.

It's been said that we're not punished for our sins, but by our sins.

Just remember that the Lord Jesus spoke far more about hell than about heaven; it was by way of warning.

Actually, that's a myth. Some bibles don't mention "hell" at all.

 

[JoeP222w]

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

Matthew 8:11-12 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, (12) while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Not all will be saved, and the Bible does not teach that all humans that have ever existed will be saved.

Romans 9:15-23 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

God is infinitely holy, righteous and perfect. When a person sins, they are committing an infinite crime, because sin is always against the infinite God. For there to be justice and the punishment to fit the crime, Hell must be eternal. If Hell was not eternal, than God would not be just. Yet for this time God is grant grace and mercy.

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them?

No one who is in Hell will repent, because they have no ability to repent after their death. They hate God and always will. Again if God releases them from Hell, than He is not just.

Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

For the living, never for the dead. Repentance is also a gift from God for the living.

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Hell is not an unjust punishment. If God was to save every human who has ever existed, than the cross of Jesus Christ is meaningless and God is not just.

 

[A_Thinker]

Just remember that the Lord Jesus spoke far more about hell than about heaven; it was by way of warning.

This, simply, is not true.

It is an old preacher's tale ...

In these days of electronic scripture, it is easy to confirm (and it makes sense) ... that Jesus spoke 3-4 times as much about heaven ... than He spoke about any alternative ...