Universalism...why not?

[Dartman]

Scripture has to agree with reality, however, correct?

Absolutely.

And the truth of the matter is, your claim that Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless clashes with the reality of the situation.

If everyone is going to be saved anyway, what value is righteousness and obedience??

Let's face it, there are those who really don't want everyone to make it. Therefore, they'll gravitate towards those passages that seem to coincide with that wish.

And there are those who want everyone to make it, regardless of the Scriptures that contradict their wishes. The TRUTH is, EVERY Scripture has equal weight, and EVERY Scripture MUST be harmonized. "universal salvation" CANNOT be harmonized with the VAST number of verses that state the wicked will be destroyed. Many stated by Jehovah/YHVH Himself.

Given that there are other verses that, unlike Psalms 145:20, point toward a God whose ways are actually higher than man's ways, the punitive, petty god-as-fire-insurance model doesn't quite hold water.

When you read your sentence carefully, it is apparent you are pitting Scripture AGAINST Scripture. That is placing yourself as the judge of which Scripture is better/correct. Rather, the Bible student MUST harmonize ALL Scripture.

[By the way, on the non-related technical front, you might want to fix your post, #231, since the quote feature is inaccurately attributing to me your statement about Universalism making righteousness and obedience meaningless.

]

Thank you! I think I've fixed it.

 

[Lazarus Short]

You welcome. I have been following this from my research going back to the 80s. The eastern religions in the 70s, but especially the 80s were being infused within western cultures and lightly sprayed with Jesus, for this is what Unitarian Universalism is. What they have done is to drop off the term Unitarian to bolster their deceptive ploys to conscript more unsuspecting Christians to their ideology and cause.

I endeavoured to give you a heads up as a friendly person who is bating for you and others, who are unsuspecting of these deceptive ploys by Progressive Liberals and Full Preterists who have teamed up to destroy the faith of Jesus Christ and to steal from the unsuspecting their salvation.

In case you are wondering, I have never set foot in a UU church, and am not unaware of the unwholesome trends in nominal Christianity.

 

[ClementofA]

"Church Fathers" are not to be trusted

Who said to trust them? You said:

"Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless."

Then we shouldn't trust you, either! Right?

Though i'd probably trust them before i trusted you.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

Human experience doesn't overrule Scripture;
Ps 145:20 Jehovah preserveth all them that love him; but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever (Lam.3:31)

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Lazarus Short]

If everyone is going to be saved anyway, what value is righteousness and obedience??

The value is this: Righteousness & obedience tend to place a person in the first resurrection, with rewards. Otherwise, the risk is great of being in the second resurrection and suffering loss, including inheritance as adopted sons/daughters of the King, and the Lake of Fire. If some see this as "fire insurance lite," sobeit.

 

[ClementofA]

It must be of free will. God does not want robotic servants.

If i were God I'd rather have billions of robot-human androids enjoying heaven forever than seeing freewill-robots tortured in hell forever & ever & ever.

 

[Dartman]

Who said to trust them? You said:

"Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless."

Then we shouldn't trust you, either! Right?

Though i'd probably trust them before i trusted you.

I have never asked you to "trust me", which explains why I quote Scripture instead of "church fathers".

Mal 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

 

[Light of the East]

Within the covenantial blood contract, where there are two parties, that is God and man.

It is not a contract. Covenant is relationship.

 

[Dartman]

Human experience doesn't overrule Scripture;
Ps 145:20 Jehovah preserveth all them that love him; but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

For no one is cast off by the Lord forever (Lam.3:31)

Two classic errors;
1) Pitting Scripture against Scripture
2) Taking a tiny phrase out of context

 

[Light of the East]

"Church Fathers" are not to be trusted (Acts 20:28-31, 2 Thess 2:1-12), only Jesus, his apostles, and the prophet are trust worthy:
Eph 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Why are the Church Fathers not to be trusted?

 

[ClementofA]

Polls? There isn't a Christian church that officially teaches that doctrine...

[snip]

Not a thing in that paragraph comes close to refuting the statement that Universalists are a tiny minority.

If your trust is in majority opinion, then in Noah's day God would have drowned you in the flood.

BTW, the largest Church today, the RCC, teaches a hope for universalism & a possibility of hell. IOW everyone may be saved.

Also what the 100's or 1000's of church denominations "officially" teach may not necessarily represent what many or most of a church's members believe:

"...Is it safe to say that the post-Vatican II Church is functionally Universalist? Might that play a role? This would apply to most Mainline Prots as well. Yes, also far too many Orthodox parishes.

"...I’d estimate that 95 – 98% of all the Catholics – including pastoral leaders – that I’ve ever worked with are functional universalists."

Universalism is the new Christian orthodoxy

"The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great

"There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)"

The Church Fathers on Universalism

 

[Dartman]

It is not a contract. Covenant is relationship.

Looking at all the related Scriptures, a covenant IS a contract. It CAN be based on a relationship.

 

[Dartman]

Church Fathers" are not to be trusted (Acts 20:28-31, 2 Thess 2:1-12), only Jesus, his apostles, and the prophet are trust worthy:
Eph 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Why are the Church Fathers not to be trusted?

(Acts 20:28-31, 2 Thess 2:1-12)

 

[ClementofA]

I have never asked you to "trust me", which explains why I quote Scripture instead of "church fathers".

Satan can quote Scripture. So do many cults. And 100's or 1000's of church denominations.

 

[Light of the East]

Absolutely. If everyone is going to be saved anyway, what value is righteousness and obedience??]

If you were to see the suffering that souls are going through as they are scourged by God's love in punishment for their sins and to change their souls, you would know the answer to this. Just because all will be eventually restored to God does not mean that they get a free pass without any form of scourging for their sins committed in this life.

And there are those who want everyone to make it, regardless of the Scriptures that contradict their wishes. The TRUTH is, EVERY Scripture has equal weight, and EVERY Scripture MUST be harmonized. "universal salvation" CANNOT be harmonized with the VAST number of verses that state the wicked will be destroyed. Many stated by Jehovah/YHVH Himself.

Patristic, or Universal Salvation is consistent with God's being and character as revealed in Scripture. The problem with the verses that you think apply to eternity is that a great many of them are speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant, which happened in AD 70. They are talking about temporal judgment rather than eternal judgment.

When you read your sentence carefully, it is apparent you are pitting Scripture AGAINST Scripture. That is placing yourself as the judge of which Scripture is better/correct. Rather, the Bible student MUST harmonize ALL Scripture.

Well, that's pretty much what most people do rather than to read the Bible with an open mind. Even you do it, sir.

 

[The Times]

In case you are wondering, I have never set foot in a UU church, and am not unaware of the unwholesome trends in nominal Christianity.

I understand where you are coming from. But remember that God reassured Paul, that he has his people placed strategically everywhere and this I truly believe.

There is a chest game being played out by God and Satan, we are all the pieces on the chest board and what we find today is as scriptures prophesied.....

Jerusalem, the city of peace is no longer a physical city of nations, rather a city of the Holy Spirit, where the Lord of the Sabbath dwells in the hearts of believers. So the Church is the fenceless city Jerusalem, the dwelling place of God.

So we are discerning and at the same anticipating what is culminating in these end of days.....

A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem/Christ's Church, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

The enemies are now within the Church as expected.

I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem/Church to fight against it; the city will be captured/infiltrated, the houses of prayer overrun/ransacked by the enemy within, and the women/denominations raped/defiled by perverse doctrines of devil's. Half of the city/Church will go into exile/will be lost and fall away from the faith, but the rest of the people, who are God's chosen elect will not be taken from the city and will forever stand true to the Lord.

The final spiritual battle is being played out within every denomination as the forces of good and evil are clashing, until the supreme commander Jesus Christ reigns in his justice arm against these reprobates.

Then the Lordwill go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14)

 

[ClementofA]

I have never asked you to "trust me", which explains why I quote Scripture instead of "church fathers".

You said:

"Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless."

Which is not Scripture & is a lie.

 

[Dartman]

You said:

"Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless."

Which is not Scripture & is a lie.

Show me Scripture.

 

[The Times]

It is not a contract. Covenant is relationship.

No, a Covenant is a contract in the same way the apostolic Church in Jerusalem understood it as being dedicated with blood, the blood of the lamb as a substitutionary Atonement for those who are called and sanctified in the Lord.

It is a transaction dedicated and paid in full by blood, blood to blood.....

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testamentwas dedicated without blood. (Hebrews 9:15-18)

 

[Light of the East]

(Acts 20:28-31, 2 Thess 2:1-12)

Where are the wolves who will come into the Church and teach these damnable things? Are they in the Church as leaders and members, or are they outside the Church and drawing away sheep to themselves to set up false worship? Seems that the Scripture is pretty clear that they are outsiders preying on the sheep.

Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. (Matthew 16: 18 -19) He promised the Apostles that they would be led into all truth (John 16:13).

If the Church is His Bride, what kind of man is Jesus if He allows the evil one to rape His Bride with false doctrine?


II Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the end of the Old Covenant age. It is a continuation of Matthew 23-24 which speaks about all the things that were about to happen to the remnants of the Old Covenant congregation, including the coming of false Messiahs, the destruction of the Temple, etc. Has nothing to do with the true Church which Christ established upon St. Peter.