The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

[sparow]

When Jesus told his disciples to forgive those who were crucifying him because they were ignorant, what do you think that he meant about the ignorant?

I suspect there is more to this question than meat the eye. I think the scripture is, "for give them for they know not what they do". But there motivation was not lack of knowledge; it was as though they were drunk and being pushed. They were fulfilling prophesy and Jesus implied that the days events would not be held against them; The were covered by the daily sacrifice who on that day was Jesus; but the daily sacrifice does not provide salvation; only appeasement for the day. One might wonder how many Laws they broke, apart from murder; the people could not claim to be ignorant of the Law; if they were ignorant of the Law they had no excuse for being ignorant, these were the covenant people.

Matthew 23:37-38 (NKJV)
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

 

[Radrook]

I suspect there is more to this question than meat the eye. I think the scripture is, "for give them for they know not what they do". But there motivation was not lack of knowledge; it was as though they were drunk and being pushed. They were fulfilling prophesy and Jesus implied that the days events would not be held against them; The were covered by the daily sacrifice who on that day was Jesus; but the daily sacrifice does not provide salvation; only appeasement for the day. One might wonder how many Laws they broke, apart from murder; the people could not claim to be ignorant of the Law; if they were ignorant of the Law they had no excuse for being ignorant, these were the covenant people.

Matthew 23:37-38 (NKJV)
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

You expect Roman guards to know and to follow the Mosaic Law?

In any case, you would have God destroy people even if they are ignorant?
Or perhaps if you believe in hellfire, slowly roast them alive forever even if they are ignorant?

You don't realize how that sounds to unbelievers such as atheists?

 

[Andrew4jesus]

This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

The holocaust was the start of the releasing, the scales are falling from our eyes, the truth is that much blood was spilled and sacrifices were made.
These sacrifices were essential, blood had to be spilt and the cradles of slavery were smashed.
The kingdom of God is upon us, we are entering the jubilee let's rejoice. We are all sown from the seeds of our Lord. This is why we don't remember our past lives, they were dark times, but the hand of God was upon us. I have felt my spirit rise from the darkness. The time of sacrifice is almost over. Praise be to him upon high.

 

[Steve Petersen]

So what are we to make of OT passages and passages in the book of Revelation where "Holocausts" happen and they are the wrath and judgment of God?

People trying to find an explanation for suffering and putting their ideas in the mouth of God.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Supposing that the Holocaust was not the wrath and judgment of God, let me ask you this: why would God allow the Holocaust, and what does that say about his nature and His character?

This is why some people are deists. They don't have to apologize for God when this type of question is raised. It is what it is.

 

[LastSeven]

When Jesus told his disciples to forgive those who were crucifying him because they were ignorant, what do you think that he meant about the ignorant?

I know your question was not directed at me, but this is pertinent here:

John 9:41
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

Only if you know your actions are sinful, are you guilty.

 

[sparow]

You expect Roman guards to know and to follow the Mosaic Law?

In any case, you would have God destroy people even if they are ignorant?
Or perhaps if you believe in hellfire, slowly roast them alive forever even if they are ignorant?

You don't realize how that sounds to unbelievers such as atheists?

I believe ignorance is subject to relativity; we are all ignorant to some degree and we all have knowledge. Ultimately the whole world is going to be Judged by God's Law whether they have knowledge of it or not.

The Roman guards were just following orders, that does not make them innocent of course. The Pharisees first were responsible for His death and secondly the screaming mob were responsible for his death; the Pharisees and the mob were the covenant people; if they were ignorant it was their own fault, God is blameless.

Ignorance of the Law is no excuse, the Roman soldier was no different to the Nazis who also followed orders; were the Nazis excused.

 

[Radrook]

I believe ignorance is subject to relativity; we are all ignorant to some degree and we all have knowledge. Ultimately the whole world is going to be Judged by God's Law whether they have knowledge of it or not.

The Roman guards were just following orders, that does not make them innocent of course. The Pharisees first were responsible for His death and secondly the screaming mob were responsible for his death; the Pharisees and the mob were the covenant people; if they were ignorant it was their own fault, God is blameless.

Ignorance of the Law is no excuse, the Roman soldier was no different to the Nazis who also followed orders; were the Nazis excused.

So you as a judge would have the same punishment for those killing a person on purpose and those doing it accidentally?

 

[sparow]

So you as a judge would have the same punishment for those killing a person on purpose and those doing it accidentally?

You say this and you do not even know me. God distinguishes between murder and killing; this an be known because God has often sanctioned killing and God does not break His Laws. The Law is dependant on the death penalty and salvation is about acquiring a remission from the second death. Satan is a murder, God is not.

 

[pgardner2358]

This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

 

[pgardner2358]

BUT: at the end of this age there will be only 3 categories of human beings.
1. Born-again- people who have received God in Christ as the Spirit into their human spirit (a part of their created being made to receive and contain God- who is spirit.
2. God's Old Testament people (the Old Testament is our 'picture book', without which we could not understand, grasp, or experience spiritual reality) , the Jews in Israel at that time who <upon seeing a tremendous supernatural vision of Jesus Christ> repent and receive Jesus as their Messiah and are rescued from imminent total annihilation.
3. Unbelievers: A. Sheep: those who treat God's people well during the 3 1/2 year Tribulation., and B. Goats: Those who do not. Thrown into the lake of fire.
FYI: Genuineness is the only and absolutely required trait of a human being regarding God. Those who call themselves 'Christians' but who are not born again, having not received the Lord into their being, are 'tares- false wheat', and will be cast directly, alive into the lake of fire before any of the other human beings are judged.
Otherwise, you don't know what your eternal fate is.
THIS is why I nag and harp, because there is no greater matter that I can communicate to you. I would be negligent and irresponsible otherwise. PLEASE do NOT think I stress these things out of some mere religious belief and inclination. I do NOT merely think or believe these things, I have seen and become these eternal truth matters.
Love in Christ
God has to respect man's free will, we are NOT spiritual robots.
Christ is NOT divided, Christianity IS. So, does that tell you whose kingdom christianity is REALLY in? Read the Two Babylons. I feel sorry for alcoholic, homosexual pedophiles. Is there a global organization that supports, protects, and hides them that I may join? Yes! I can join the catholic 'church'!

 

[pgardner2358]

I believe God does not always put a stop to things to be honest. God is there but there is no reason that God has to intervene. Humans caused the Holocaust and humans put an end to it. Perhaps it was a test for us. That's the best I have at the moment.

 

[pgardner2358]

There is religion, which is man's concept of (and approach to) God (Ecc: "God has put eternity in man's hearts"). AND there is there is Jesus Christ, who is God becoming a man. We could not come to God, so He came to us. ALL that the Father is He embodied and expressed in the Son, and now we can receive and apply all that the Father is and all that the Son accomplished into us as the life-giving Spirit into our human spirit.

 

[jaybird88]

the Jews were a burned offering to their gods. the gods of the dark belief systems have always called for human sacrifice.

 

[LastSeven]

I believe ignorance is subject to relativity; we are all ignorant to some degree and we all have knowledge. Ultimately the whole world is going to be Judged by God's Law whether they have knowledge of it or not.

The Roman guards were just following orders, that does not make them innocent of course. The Pharisees first were responsible for His death and secondly the screaming mob were responsible for his death; the Pharisees and the mob were the covenant people; if they were ignorant it was their own fault, God is blameless.

Ignorance of the Law is no excuse, the Roman soldier was no different to the Nazis who also followed orders; were the Nazis excused.

Funny that you would say that, immediately after I posted this:

John 9:41
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

So Jesus says, if you don't know you're sinning, then you're not guilty, but sparow says even if you don't know, you're still guilty because ignorance is no excuse. Who should I believe?

 

[sparow]

Funny that you would say that, immediately after I posted this:

John 9:41
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

So Jesus says, if you don't know you're sinning, then you're not guilty, but sparow says even if you don't know, you're still guilty because ignorance is no excuse. Who should I believe?

There is a thing called one verse theology, that is, when one verse is being examined the rest cease to exist.

The Daily sacrifice is for sin committed in ignorance; but the covenant people knew the Law so as to be not ignorant of the Law yet they still sinned while not conscious of sinning; so the need for the daily sacrifice. The daily sacrifice did not help the Pharisees, our righteousness has to be greater than theirs.

Those to whom Jesus was speaking could not claim ignorance of the Law that they used to accuse Him; and Jesus never said they were blind or that they could see; had they been ignorant of the Law they could not have accused Him or falsely accuse Him. Nobody is innocent of sin; all have sinned; the ignorant may not be held accountable but neither is salvation offered to them; salvation is according to knowledge and understanding never according to ignorance; when the second death dispensation arrives, those who haven't arranged a reprieve, via the covenant, from the second death will perish, never to be resurrected again.

God does not raise stupid children:
Proverbs 9:4-6 (NKJV)
4 "Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!" As for him who lacks understanding, she says to him,
5 "Come, eat of my bread And drink of the wine I have mixed.
6 Forsake foolishness and live, And go in the way of understanding.

Ecclesiastes 7:16-18 (NKJV)
16 Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
17 Do not be overly wicked, Nor be foolish: Why should you die before your time?
18 It is good that you grasp this, And also not remove your hand from the other; For he who fears God will escape them all.

 

[LastSeven]

There is a thing called one verse theology, that is, when one verse is being examined the rest cease to exist.

The Daily sacrifice is for sin committed in ignorance; but the covenant people knew the Law so as to be not ignorant of the Law yet they still sinned while not conscious of sinning; so the need for the daily sacrifice. The daily sacrifice did not help the Pharisees, our righteousness has to be greater than theirs.

Those to whom Jesus was speaking could not claim ignorance of the Law that they used to accuse Him; and Jesus never said they were blind or that they could see; had they been ignorant of the Law they could not have accused Him or falsely accuse Him. Nobody is innocent of sin; all have sinned; the ignorant may not be held accountable but neither is salvation offered to them; salvation is according to knowledge and understanding never according to ignorance; when the second death dispensation arrives, those who haven't arranged a reprieve, via the covenant, from the second death will perish, never to be resurrected again.

God does not raise stupid children:
Proverbs 9:4-6 (NKJV)
4 "Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!" As for him who lacks understanding, she says to him,
5 "Come, eat of my bread And drink of the wine I have mixed.
6 Forsake foolishness and live, And go in the way of understanding.

Ecclesiastes 7:16-18 (NKJV)
16 Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
17 Do not be overly wicked, Nor be foolish: Why should you die before your time?
18 It is good that you grasp this, And also not remove your hand from the other; For he who fears God will escape them all.

That's a good rebuttal, but not good enough. I appreciate that you put some effort into it though.

Your position, that we can be guilty of sin even without realizing our sin, makes a couple of issues impossible to reconcile.

1. If a baby dies, is he guilty of sin and doomed to death? I don't think so (as I'm sure neither do you), but your position would require some kind of "age of accountability" doctrine in order for that baby to be saved and that makes no sense because at what age do you draw the line? It makes a lot more sense to say the baby is innocent because he didn't know better, and that same logic can be applied to the mentally disabled, or those who never heard the gospel before they died.

2. On the new earth, will we still have a free will? Of course we will, so how then can God guarantee that we won't be guilty of sin? Your position would require that we all just decide to never sin again, but realistically, if we still have a free will we can still choose to sin, so that makes no sense. God would have to take away our free will and of course that would defeat the whole purpose of our creation. No, it makes a lot more sense for us to remain free of guilt on the new earth because we remain ignorant of the knowledge of good and evil, as it says in Isaiah 65:17.

 

[sparow]

That's a good rebuttal, but not good enough. I appreciate that you put some effort into it though.

Your position, that we can be guilty of sin even without realizing our sin, makes a couple of issues impossible to reconcile.

1. If a baby dies, is he guilty of sin and doomed to death? I don't think so (as I'm sure neither do you), but your position would require some kind of "age of accountability" doctrine in order for that baby to be saved and that makes no sense because at what age do you draw the line? It makes a lot more sense to say the baby is innocent because he didn't know better, and that same logic can be applied to the mentally disabled, or those who never heard the gospel before they died.

2. On the new earth, will we still have a free will? Of course we will, so how then can God guarantee that we won't be guilty of sin? Your position would require that we all just decide to never sin again, but realistically, if we still have a free will we can still choose to sin, so that makes no sense. God would have to take away our free will and of course that would defeat the whole purpose of our creation. No, it makes a lot more sense for us to remain free of guilt on the new earth because we remain ignorant of the knowledge of good and evil, as it says in Isaiah 65:17.

I am amazed that you would confuse my position with the position of God which is "that we can sin even without realizing our sin"; God reconciles using the daily sacrifice which is not for any specific sin.

1. You have everything upside down and back to front; the wicked go astray as soon as they are born. At birth the default is not eternal life but is the second death and the saved have find the way through Christ to life; as did the thief on the cross; you throw "guilty" around as though you were a Pharisee. Innocents is not a default it is something achieved as is righteousness and guilt; I am not aware that the Bible discusses the salvation of babies or the mentally handicapped but my position is God has everything in hand and He isn't required to account to me.

2. Nonsense; the first resurrection is where the righteous are made perfect. Free will is close to a oxymoron it is at least a double positive; If your will is not free then it is someone else's will. "Will" is interchangeable with non-cognitive; If we are God's then our will, will be God's will; if we use only His name and wear our own garments and eat our own food the our will will be our own.

 

[LastSeven]

1. You have everything upside down and back to front; the wicked go astray as soon as they are born. At birth the default is not eternal life but is the second death and the saved have find the way through Christ to life; as did the thief on the cross; you throw "guilty" around as though you were a Pharisee. Innocents is not a default it is something achieved as is righteousness and guilt; I am not aware that the Bible discusses the salvation of babies or the mentally handicapped but my position is God has everything in hand and He isn't required to account to me.

So you must believe that a baby who dies is not considered clean of sin and therefore will die the second death. Also, the mentally handicapped, incapable of accepting let alone understanding Jesus, will die the second death. That's an interesting position.

2. Nonsense; the first resurrection is where the righteous are made perfect.

"Perfect"? What does that mean?

Free will is close to a oxymoron it is at least a double positive; If your will is not free then it is someone else's will. "Will" is interchangeable with non-cognitive; If we are God's then our will, will be God's will; if we use only His name and wear our own garments and eat our own food the our will will be our own.

So "if we are God's", as you say then there's no way we could choose to do wrong? Are you sure about that?

 

[sparow]

So you must believe that a baby who dies is not considered clean of sin and therefore will die the second death. Also, the mentally handicapped, incapable of accepting let alone understanding Jesus, will die the second death. That's an interesting position.

"Perfect"? What does that mean?

So "if we are God's", as you say then there's no way we could choose to do wrong? Are you sure about that?

If you had not raise the issue I would not have an opinion about Babies dying ; there was a time when a descendant of Abraham who was not circumcised was not acknowledged by God; this continued under Moses and it applied to babies also. Then there is the hypothetical where if two men are behaving recklessly or illegally and a woman passing by is injured then the men are to account for those injuries, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth and life for life, but if the woman was pregnant and had a miscarriage the men were to pay compensation for the loss of the child, two bull and two goats or something like that. I trust God knows what He is doing and everyone will have an opportunity for salvation.

The word "perfect" is the choice of the interpreters/translators; in the case of the Bible the Bible defines what it means and if one reads from Genesis to Revelation one should have a good Idea what God means; other wise God has defined the Law as perfect so the Law is a subset of the perfect set.

You must have heard of the new covenant where the perfect Law is written on heats and minds such that the Law does not have to be learned, it is automatic; evil will no longer exist. Evil is banned in the future; you think there will be the free will to chose evil; I think the will will not be free but will have the ultimate price because God will still have the second death option should such a one be missed during judgement.