Pregnant at 18. Hailed by Abortion Foes. Punished by Christian School.

[Dave-W]

Do you deny then that Amish communities use the method of 'shunning' that I mentioned?

Not at all. But that is for members of their own community, not for outsiders.

 

[miamited]

Not at all. But that is for members of their own community, not for outsiders.

Hi dave,

Yes, I understand that, but...

So is this issue with the school an issue within it's own membership and not something concerning an outsider. The young woman student was a member of the school community. The other point is that, while you say that it is the Amish understanding of 'judge not lest ye be judged', the Amish community does judge. They judge by use of a consequence known as 'shunning'. Shunning is a method by which the community at large, puts out of fellowship, a member who has been deemed to have broken a rule or committed some sin. That, my friend, is exactly what this school is doing.

So, while I surely believe God's ways, I'm not so confident that this idea that the Amish community necessarily follows it in any manner that is appreciably different than the manner that this school is following it, is a true representation of that belief. This school is 'shunning' a law breaker. They aren't trying to put her in jail. They aren't asking that she be executed. They aren't even asking the civil authorities to do anything with the girl and if it hadn't garnered national attention through the work of the parents and student or some civil rights group, the civil authorities would have never even been aware of the incident. Despite what some on this thread and the linked report might try to convince us to believe, they aren't encouraging the young woman to have an abortion. That option is her own free choice to make. They just don't want her to be a part of their school community because she is not a good example of a leader or an exemplary student, except in the matter of her grades. Her moral values and personal code of conduct are not in keeping with what they believe is a basic leadership quality and also not in keeping with her commitment of personal sexual purity that is a part of their membership requirements. So, they are asking/requiring that she leave their fellowship.

I agree.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, let's ignore Romeo. Let's also ignore Juliette if she doesn't want out attention.

This is, in my opinion, between them and their families. The school or public shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place.

The school is involved because it's their ceremony.

 

[Nithavela]

The school is involved because it's their ceremony.

Yes, and they shouldn't base such a decision on things that happen privately in bedrooms.

I can see them barring someone from Prom because of bad behaviour, fighting or crime, but this? Nope, no understanding.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Hi dave,

Do you deny then that Amish communities use the method of 'shunning' that I mentioned?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

I would not suggest any one join the Amish

However I will say that I visited there comunity briefly years ago in Lancastor.....
and I was told they have 0 divorces......actually only 1........

So the LAW does work if everyone keeps it ......but as humans we dont.......

However if anyone has had divorces in thier family it would be nice to turn back to the 1950s where there were very few if any divorces in the Church.......
I only knew of 1 or 2 divorces in my church as a kid.........
and that was before they joined the church.........

 

[miamited]

Yes, and they shouldn't base such a decision on things that happen privately in bedrooms.

I can see them barring someone from Prom because of bad behaviour, fighting or crime, but this? Nope, no understanding.

Hi nthavela,

So, for you, premarital sex is not representative of 'bad' behavior? It's just what people do and there's nothing at all wrong with it. Those who are striving to exemplify and follow the teachings of the Lord are fully acting in a righteous manner by engaging in premarital sex. Would that be a correct understanding of your understanding of premarital sex?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[RDKirk]

So, i just want to make sure i get this right; as a christian, i am meant to make moral judgement calls that affect peoples day to day loves? And i am supposed to stare at them unflinching with shrugged shoulders like, "There is nothin i can do. Sorry dude/dudette. Wha? Grace? Whats that?" when their terrible decisions impact them?

Sometimes. 1 Corinthians 5.

 

[RDKirk]

I think the issue being raised is not whether the school has a right to enforce their code of conduct (or whether the family should have adhered to it without fuss) but whether the code of conduct handles this in the best way possible in the first place.

Myself, I have doubts about this...

What would have been your suggestion?

 

[RDKirk]

It is graduation, not the prom.

She is being graduated. She is just being denied participation in the ceremony.

And I suspect a big reason is because her pregnancy is obvious.

 

[RDKirk]

This seems like a bizarre thought process. I would think that seeing someone who is pregnant would result in girls thinking "I best not have sex or I could end up pregnant like her".

Not if all of society appears to make accommodation for it. What consequences do the other girls see? Having been the father of both a boy and a girl and working with many teenagers, my observation is that their effective perception of consequences at that age goes no farther than their line of sight.

 

[miamited]

I would not suggest any one join the Amish

However I will say that I visited there comunity briefly years ago in Lancastor.....
and I was told they have 0 divorces......actually only 1........

So the LAW does work if everyone keeps it ......but as humans we dont.......

However if anyone has had divorces in thier family it would be nice to turn back to the 1950s where there were very few if any divorces in the Church.......
I only knew of 1 or 2 divorces in my church as a kid.........
and that was before they joined the church.........

Hi TT,

Any ideas as to why they might have 0 divorces? Is it possible that just like in America 100 years ago, getting a divorce was akin to committing some felonious sin? Is there any possibility that both husbands and wives do understand what a godly marriage means, but also understand that the breaking of one's wedding vows would put them out of fellowship with their community? In other words, perhaps just a small part of why divorces are, for the most part non-existent, is the understanding that there would be some community consequence for such an action. Some judgment by the community at large that you were not a person who will keep his/her commitments. Is it possible that there actually are more divorces among the Amish believers than you know, but that once an Amish couple divorces, they are put out and not accepted as Amish? So, those Amish who get divorces do exist, but they have to go live among some other community because of their divorce.

Here's an article that is Amish based that explains a bit about the situation:

Can Amish get divorced?

Notice that the very first sentence is that divorce among the Amish is grounds for excommunication. There obviously is some judgment of consequence for divorce. However, please don't misunderstand. I applaud the Amish approach to marriage and would gladly adopt it as a national understanding in our nation, but...

Overall, we're a nation of unrepentant sinners who loathe to be placed under some strict and burdensome 'law'. Even among those who claim to be christians.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, and they shouldn't base such a decision on things that happen privately in bedrooms.

I can see them barring someone from Prom because of bad behaviour, fighting or crime, but this? Nope, no understanding.

Well, although you would not approve, within the culture of Christianity, there is some attention placed on what happens in bedrooms. Let's say there was wifeswapping going on among the deacons and their wives. Although you would not approve, most Christian congregations are going to take a dim view of that.

Just this past Tuesday in our own congregation management meeting, the lead pastor advised us of a junior pastor who was relieved of his pastoral duties because he's been discovered having been in the beds of a number of young women in the congregation. He hasn't been kicked out of the congregation, at least not at this point. But for sure, all that activity occurred in private bedrooms.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

To be clear, that sin is between her and God and it is something that those two will figure out together; it is not our business to involve ourselves in.

No, but it is the school's if she's a student there...

 

[miamited]

Hi all,

Now, as I see it, here's the question to be answered regarding the Amish and divorce as it pertains to this matter of the young woman and the school:

If an Amish couple were to get a divorce would it somehow be wrong to excommunicate them? Should the rule of Amish law specifically created to deal with the issue of divorce not be enforced if an Amish couple should get a divorce? Even if the wife and husband were exemplary Amish people in every other aspect of their lives. They helped out in the community and were always there for others who were struggling and were leaders in the Amish fellowship. Would it be against the will of God that they be excommunicated from their people?

For me, this issue has now been soundly discussed and so I'm out of here, although I will likely come back from time to time to see how things are going.

God bless you all,
In Christ, ted

 

[Nithavela]

Hi nthavela,

So, for you, premarital sex is not representative of 'bad' behavior? It's just what people do and there's nothing at all wrong with it. Those who are striving to exemplify and follow the teachings of the Lord are fully acting in a righteous manner by engaging in premarital sex. Would that be a correct understanding of your understanding of premarital sex?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

I'm not a christian, so what pleases a god that I don't believe in doesn't factor much into my opinion.

 

[dmmesdale]

I think the issue being raised is not whether the school has a right to enforce their code of conduct (or whether the family should have adhered to it without fuss) but whether the code of conduct handles this in the best way possible in the first place.

Myself, I have doubts about this...

If they are taking funds from the government then they do not have the right to discriminate or impose codes of conduct. Out of wedlock pregnancy breaks no law. Public education takes every student that walks in. Private can discriminate if they do not take public monies in the form of vouchers. If they do??
DeVos asked to address Lighthouse Christian Academy, federal funding in congressional hearing | Local news | heraldtimesonline.com
The eight-page brochure, titled "Admissions Information and Policies 2017-2018," can be found on Lighthouse Christian Academy's website with other admission materials.

Under a section titled, Biblical Lifestyle, its lists 10 behaviors "prohibited in the Bible," including "heterosexual activity outside of one man-one-woman marriage;" "homosexual or bisexual activity or any form of sexual immorality;" and "practicing alternate gender identity or any other identity or behavior that violates God’s ordained distinctions between the two sexes, male and female." Specific Bible verses are cited after each of the 10 behaviors.

"In situations in which the home life violates these standards, LCA reserves the right, within its sole discretion, to refuse admission of an applicant or to discontinue enrollment of a student," the brochure reads. Why the double standard?

 

[miamited]

I'm not a christian, so what pleases a god that I don't believe in doesn't factor much into my opinion.

Hi nighavela,

Fair enough. But other than the question concerning those who are striving to follow the Lord, your position on premarital sexual relations is that it's all good? I think that difference in understanding of the reality of things should be noted as a valid reason why you likely aren't going to approach this issue in the same way that believers would approach it.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Nithavela]

Hi nighavela,

Fair enough. But other than the question concerning those who are striving to follow the Lord, your position on premarital sexual relations is that it's all good? I think that difference in understanding of the reality of things should be noted as a valid reason why you likely aren't going to approach this issue in the same way that believers would approach it.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

I think that as long as it is between two consenting adults, it's not my buisness one way or the other.

 

[RDKirk]

If they are taking funds from the government then they do not have the right to discriminate or impose codes of conduct. Out of wedlock pregnancy breaks no law. Public education takes every student that walks in. Private can discriminate if they do not take public monies in the form of vouchers. If they do?]

First, yes there is a wide range of "discrimination" available to private schools that take some public funding. If they can take public funding at all, the discrimination that makes them "private" is obviously permitted.

There are only certain limited types of discrimination that are prohibited, and prohibition of volitional sexual activity is not one of them. Nor is there any law implying that everything not illegal must be permitted.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

If they are taking funds from the government then they do not have the right to discriminate or impose codes of conduct. Public education takes every student that walks in. Private can discriminate if they do not take public monies in the form of vouchers. If they do??

This is the problem that I have with the voucher system - not that I have an taxpayer funds supporting private schools in itself, but that this funding, even indirect funding through vouchers, will always have strings attached, that will increase government control over private education. There is no free lunch.