Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

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JesusLovesOurLady

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God did not die, the man Jesus died. Romans 5 makes it clear that we are saved by the man Jesus just as we were condemned by the man Adam. However, since the early believers did not understand Paul, they condemned it as the Nestorian heresy. But calling something an error does not make it an error, nor does creating a new error make that error right.
Really so the Crucifixion is human sacrifice? I thought that was an abomination against God, but please correct me if I'm wrong, tell me how God loves human sacrifice!
 
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Vicomte13

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You say catholics don't believe that Mary is omniscient etc but yet catholics believe Mary can hear the prayers of thousands of catholics simultaneously. She would need to be omniscient to do that. Mary is not the Mother of God. She was known as Jesus' mother while He was on earth because she gave birth to Him but that was 2000 years & Jesus existed before Mary was born. He created her. She is no longer His mother. He is not in heaven referring to her as 'mom'... He is God the Son who is uncreated unlike Mary who was created by Him. Technically she was seen as His mother but she is not His mother today because God does not have a mother. To call her the mother of God means she is the mother of God the Father too and Holy Spirit because God is a Triune being consisting of Father, Son & Holy Spirit. According to scripture Jesus was made a little lower than the angels while He was on earth so Mary could be seen as His mother but after He was resurrected He became fully God Almighty again & she was no longer His mother from that moment on. Read the bible without your Catholic glasses on and you will see the truth. I was a Catholic by the way but then I got born again.

You have diminished Mary to practically nothing. God obviously does not agree, given that He sent Mary to convert the Aztecs, as Our Lady of Guadelupe, and He sent her to open the healing spring of Lourdes in the 1850s, and He sent her to bring hope to the world at Fatima in 1917.

It is well that you were "born again", but God has been active in the world since 96 AD (estimated date of the completion of the last writing in the Bible), so if you really want to be fully with Him, you need to examine what He has done since, which would include sending Mary as emissary and missionary.

If your current view of the structure of the world doesn't include those facts, you need to incorporate the rest of the facts into it, and that will force you to reassess.
 
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FenderTL5

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Martin Luther meant that the only authoritative source was the Bible, not traditions nor non-canonical books.
If this thread illustrates anything at all; it shows that with Luther's thinking of rejecting Tradition, we get to revisit the ancient heresies over and over again.
 
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PeaceB

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You say catholics don't believe that Mary is omniscient etc but yet catholics believe Mary can hear the prayers of thousands of catholics simultaneously. She would need to be omniscient to do that. Mary is not the Mother of God. She was known as Jesus' mother while He was on earth because she gave birth to Him but that was 2000 years & Jesus existed before Mary was born. He created her. She is no longer His mother. He is not in heaven referring to her as 'mom'... He is God the Son who is uncreated unlike Mary who was created by Him. Technically she was seen as His mother but she is not His mother today because God does not have a mother. To call her the mother of God means she is the mother of God the Father too and Holy Spirit because God is a Triune being consisting of Father, Son & Holy Spirit. According to scripture Jesus was made a little lower than the angels while He was on earth so Mary could be seen as His mother but after He was resurrected He became fully God Almighty again & she was no longer His mother from that moment on. Read the bible without your Catholic glasses on and you will see the truth. I was a Catholic by the way but then I got born again.
You were born again when you were baptized as an infant, but that is something we can discuss later.

Do you realize that you are denying the doctrine of the Incarnation, that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human?

Jesus did not become "less God" when he was incarnated and "more God again" when he was resurrected. And he most certainly did not become "less human" when he was resurrected and glorified, in case this is what you also hold.

I am not sure where these beliefs of yours stem from, but if you allow me to refer back to my Encyclopedia of Early Christian Heretics, I should be able to get back to you later today.
 
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tadoflamb

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The problem is semantics. By saying Mary is the mother of God, it implies that she preceded the eternal in giving birth to the eternal, which is a logical impossibility if the word "eternal" is understood to mean, "with no beginning nor end". Was the eternal Word inside Mary in the birth of Jesus? Of course He was. On the other hand, the Holy Spirit dwells in me as a born again Christian. Does that make me the father of God? We all know that is absurd.

Mary, Mother of God was defined by the council of Ephesus in 431. Even some sola scripturists accept that.

Let's try another one. What do sola scripturists believe exactly about the perpetual virginity of Mary?
 
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Phil 1:21

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Really so the Crucifixion is human sacrifice? I thought that was an abomination against God, but please correct me if I'm wrong, tell me how God loves human sacrifice!

My sister in Christ, based on your answer to me a few weeks ago when I asked you if you'd ever read the entire Bible I say this with utmost love. After you have read the entire Bible, start to finish, you'll understand exactly what Alex is saying. You'll also look back and smile at your ironic use of the word "sacrifice."
 
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kepha31

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PeaceB

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My sister in Christ, based on your answer to me a few weeks ago when I asked you if you'd ever read the entire Bible I say this with utmost love. After you have read the entire Bible, start to finish, you'll understand exactly what Alex is saying. You'll also look back and smile at your ironic use of the word "sacrifice."
Well why don't you come down from your high horse and enlighten us, Kemosahbee?

Was the man who offered Himself on the cross for our salvation God, or wasn't He?
 
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Phil 1:21

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Well why don't you come down from your high horse and enlighten us, Kemosahbee?

Was the man who offered Himself on the cross for our salvation God, or wasn't He?

Every time I think you've stopped trolling, you prove me wrong. :sigh:
 
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Halbhh

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I have questions about Luke chapter 11 where a woman called out:

27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” -NIV

27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” -ESV

27 And it came to pass, in his saying these things, a certain woman having lifted up the voice out of the multitude, said to him, ‘Happy the womb that carried thee, and the paps that thou didst suck!’
28 And he said, ‘Yea, rather, happy those hearing the word of God, and keeping [it]!’ - YLT

All of these I took from Biblehub

But I found an online "Catholic Bible" which reads:

27 It happened that as he was speaking, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, 'Blessed the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you!'
28 But he replied, 'More blessed still are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'
Luke - Chapter 11 - Bible - Catholic Online

Either way, it does also seem to have a message, right? What is that message? Why did He say this?

What is the reason He spoke and said these words?
 
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PeaceB

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Every time I think you've stopped trolling, you prove me wrong. :sigh:
Likewise, my pharisaical "If you had only read the entire Bible like I have, you would understand. I say this only because I love you" friend.

Do you honestly believe that people do not see right through you?
 
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kepha31

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Mary, Mother of God was defined by the council of Ephesus in 431. Even some sola scripturists accept that.

Let's try another one. What do sola scripturists believe exactly about the perpetual virginity of Mary?
There has been a shift of belief. Some sola scripturists still follow the original reformers who did not deny the perpetual virginity of Mary (PVM). The shift away from the original reformers occurred at the advent of Modernism around the 19th century. Before that, all Protestants believed in the PVM. This fad theology has been popularized within certain Protestant circles in the last 50 years. This link, using Bible alone, debunks the myth that Jesus had biological siblings.
Jesus' "Brothers" and Mary's Perpetual Virginity
You might want to bookmark that page.
 
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kepha31

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I have questions about Luke chapter 11 where a woman called out:

27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” -NIV

27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” -ESV

27 And it came to pass, in his saying these things, a certain woman having lifted up the voice out of the multitude, said to him, ‘Happy the womb that carried thee, and the paps that thou didst suck!’
28 And he said, ‘Yea, rather, happy those hearing the word of God, and keeping [it]!’ - YLT

All of these I took from Biblehub

But I found an online "Catholic Bible" which reads:

27 It happened that as he was speaking, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, 'Blessed the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you!'
28 But he replied, 'More blessed still are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'
Luke - Chapter 11 - Bible - Catholic Online

Either way, it does also seem to have a message, right? What is that message? Why did He say this?

What is the reason He spoke and said these words?
If Mary didn't hear the word of God and keep it, would Jesus have been born? Jesus is making a unity with those hear the word of God and keep it, with His mother as a model of faith (who kept the word of God), then we are like His mother and brothers. Mary heard God's voice perfectly and she obeyed perfectly.
Furthermore, is Jesus is slighting His mother??, a violation of the 4th Commandment, (honor your parents)???.
It's not the "gotcha" verse Protestants think it is.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Either way, it does also seem to have a message, right? What is that message? Why did He say this?

What is the reason He spoke and said these words?

So someone called out to bless Mary, and Jesus immediately turned the focus back to the Word of God? Hmmmmmm....... :scratch:
 
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Albion

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No, I'm not of the opinion that God only heals Catholics, and yes, it has EVERYTHING to do with this thread.

God heals Methodists, but he never leaves behind miracles that the public can forensically study 100 years later when he does so. He heals Methodists the same way he healed me: by healing them and sending them on their way.
Right. That's why I had to wonder why you so carefully explained the history of your healings--if it didn't pertain to the kind of miracles we're dealing with here, that is.

Besides, Lourdes is not the only point made that was called into question. Remember that the theory of Jesus allegedly appointing Peter to be the head of the Apostles was also part of your presentation.
 
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A good friend of mine (who is Pentacostal) has some very confused ideas about what Catholics believe. I mentioned to him that there are people who call themselves "Christian Wiccans" and believe that Mary is a goddess, and he said that it sounds like they've got some Catholic ideology behind them. I'm like, uh, Catholics don't think that Mary is a goddess. He said, "They think she's the Queen Of Heaven and the mother of God. So yeah, they kinda do." He thinks that, while Catholics don't actually refer to her as a goddess, she's given the same status minus the name. I tried to explain that Catholics DO NOT believe that Mary is an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being and that there's a big difference between honoring Mary more than they should and actually worshipping her, and my friend just said, "You don't know much about pantheons, do you?" I asked my dad (who is Eastern Orthodox but knows a lot about other denominations' beliefs) if he could explain what Catholics ACTUALLY believe so I could tell my friend, and he said that my friend has heard misinformation spread by Chick Publishing. He's busy right now and won't be able to explain what Catholics believe until this evening, and I realized it would probably be better to ask Catholics anyway. So, Catholics. What do you ACTUALLY believe about Mary?
Thank you for asking! So many Protestants are confused and then don't believe us when we try to correct them. I really appreciate your inquiry.

1. We do NOT believe that Mary is a goddess, or part of the trinity, or anything like that. We do not worship her. Mary is the first and best Christian. As such, we give her great honor, and we love her as her Son loves her. What we do is called veneration. It is NOT the same thing as worshiping her as a deity. Bowing CAN be worship, but it is not ALWAYS. Kissing CAN be worship, but it is not ALWAYS. A statue CAN be an idol (a god), but sometimes it's just inspirational art.

2. We ask Mary for her to pray for us to God through her Son, Jesus Christ. We sometime speak of Mary doing this or that, but this is short-hand talk, the way that we might say that Peter healed someone, or that someone was raised from the dead by John. The truth is that only God does these miracles, but he acts THROUGH the saints. Mary prays to God, and God answers her prayers. So if I pray to Mary that God will bless my husband with work, and then he finds a job, what has really happened is that I have asked Mary to pray to God through Christ, she has done so, and God has answered my prayers via Mary. Asking Mary to pray for us is not worship. Prayers are not worship. They CAN be worship, but are not always. Asking Mary to pray for us is no different than asking you or any other Christian to pray for us. Some people use the phrase "Co mediatrix" to describe Mary's role as an intercessor for us. OF COURSE she doesn't take the place of Christ's unique role of mediator. But by praying to God THROUGH Christ, she "CO"operates with that mediation.

3. We believe that when Mary said YES to God, that she actively participated in God's plan for salvation. Of course, it is Christ himself who is our Savior, but Christians work on his behalf. Every time you or I share the gospel, we participate in God's plan for salvation. But Mary's role was so very big, bigger than any other Christians. So... we especially honor her. Some people use the term "Co-Redemptrix" to describe Mary's "CO"operative role in Christ's being the Savior.

4. We believe that from conception, Mary has been preserved from Sin. In order for this to happen, she had to have had the grace of God. IOW she needed a Savior. We call this act the Immaculate Conception. It made her pure to carry the Savior within her womb. One of the things we base this on is Luke 1:28, which describes her as being Kecharitomene, or "full of grace." How can she be FULL of grace if she has sin?

5. We believe she has been assumed into heaven, like Enoch and Elijah. This is based on oral teachings that have been passed down. It is the only Marian teaching that has no basis in the Bible. However, it is not contradicted by anything in the Bible either.

6. We give Mary the Title, "Queen of Heaven" for two reasons:
  • In Judaism, we have the concept of the Queen Mother. Because there is polygamy, it is not the wife that is the queen, but rather the King's mother. Since Christ is the King of Kings, it is his mother, Mary, who is the Queen Mother.
  • In Revelation 12, we have a description of the mother of the messiah standing on the moon, clothed in the sun, with a crown of 12 stars. Thus not only is Mary Queen, but she is depicted as Queen of Heaven.
7. Catholics are known for praying the Rosary. It is NOT a requirement. Indeed, no Catholic ever need pray a single prayer to any saint, even Mary. But it is certainly part of our Catholic culture. The HEART of the Rosary is not the prayers for each bead, but the MYSTERIES (meditations) for each decade. There are 4 sets of mysteries, for five decades, meaning that there are 20 mysteries in all -- all of them meditations on the life of Christ. So you can see that the HEART of the Rosary is not Mary, but Christ. If one says the Rosary without doing the Mysteries, they are simply doing it wrong.

8. It is true that SOME Catholics get carried away with Mary and cross a line. One of our Popes said, "Mary is not please when we put her above her son." Unfortunately, this is common in some places of the world where folk Catholicism (where Catholicism blends with the native paganism) is dominant. It is important to remember that THIS IS NOT CATHOLIC TEACHING.

9. Protestants are often alarmed by the extreme language of Marian poems and song. If you can remember that Catholics have a "Courtley Love" or "Chivalrous Love" for Mary, it may help to explain our choice of words. Think of love poetry. The suitor may say extreme things because of his love, like, "I worship the very ground you walk upon, " or "You are my hope, my song, my all!" It's just being in love. That's what you are hearing in Marian prayers and songs.

I hope this is helpful to you!
 
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wilts43

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Catholic understanding of scriptures incorporates typology and there are rich veins associated with Mary......
She is The New (anti)Eve (Mother of the saved & Channel of Salvation)

Since Eve was created without sin.....The Eve of the New Covenant (& God's own Mother) cannot be less (equals Immaculate Conception)

She is the Living Ark of The Final Covenant (Containing The living Word, The true Manna whose flesh we must eat)

She is the Gibirah (Davidic Queen mother who intercedes for her people)

The angel promises (luke 1:31) "You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

So Jesus is The Davidic King.
And in the Davidic tradition the King's-Mother was his Queen, (not his wives) and she was queen-mother of all Israel and the King was to refuse her nothing. She was called Gebirah and she had a role to intercede with the king for the subjects who approached her.

It is in this light we see should her plea for her embarrassed hosts at Cana. Christ feigns that it is not yet His hour (addressing her as "woman" Eve's pre-fall name) ,...... but her plea for others (i.e. intercession from the Davidic King's Mother) is decisive. Mary (The Queen-Mother & New Eve) decides the start of her son's mission.

Just as Esther, another "Jewish" Queen, pleaded with her King (of Persia) for her Jewish people, saving them from death from the evil one (Haman).....so Mary does this as our Queen-Mother.

But "Why does God involve Mary in this way?"
Never forget the absolute humility of our self-emptying God, who chooses a stable for His entry to the world? Doesn't He naturally choose... to enter His mission at the request of her who is "handmaid" & Gebirah (Queen-Mother) & Eve. This refers back as well to Luke2 when Mary finds the boy Jesus in The Temple.

"His mother said to him, ‘Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.’
Why were you searching for me?’ he asked. ‘Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?’But they did not understand what he was saying to them. Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart.

Jesus submits, going home with his mum, like a good Jewish boy, until, now (at 30) she says "OK get out of the house already & do your job!"
Jesus "Honours His Father & His Mother" better than anyone in history.
But the original Hebrew means "Glorify" your Father & your Mother. We know He glorified The Father but He must glorify His Mother too! It is a mark of the true Church that Catholicism has recognised The Assumption & Queenship of Mary.

"From now on all generations will call me blessed,......for the Mighty One has done great things for me...............He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;.....he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts......He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble."


God's delight is to lift up the humble......so high on this unique occasion, that it bothers the Protestant mind......which tends to widen the gulf twixt God & man. A gulf that God tries to close (& closes definitively in His Incarnation).

Queen of Heaven

If Christ is King of Heaven & Earth, His mother is the Gebirah (His Queen-mother)

Rev 12 .... "The A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. ....... 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

Sounds like Mary & Jesus , (and the Dragon in the omitted verses) parallels the serpent and the first Eve (Mary being the second, obedient Eve.....typology again).

Compare Esther's brave obedience.....replacing Vashti's disobedience. Vashti was the old Queen that King Ahasuerus banished because of her proud refusal to obey him. Esther replaced her. (Old Eve disobeys; New Eve obeys and pleads for her people)

Holy Mary
As regards "Holy Mary" (in the Ave).....Typology again! (Mary is the Real Ark of the Real, final Covenant dimly foreshadowed by the old Ark)

The old Ark, made of wood, was so holy it could kill those who touched it. So how is the living Ark of the New Covenant (within whom was fashioned the real, living bread-of-life and living Word-of-God) may not be called holy? Just as the old Ark was made holy by what was in it, so is Mary made holy by what she bore. She gives her flesh to Incarnate God, & Magnifies Him (Luke 1:46). That's very holy to me. But I am Catholic.

And if The Father was so totally fastidious about the construction of The old Ark.....what care did he give in creating His own Mother from whom His own Son would take flesh? Far more.

And as Bride of The Holy Spirit (who impregnates her by "overshadowing" her) Mary is (1)Without Sin (2)Made Holy
(God doesn't do one-night-stands)

And the old Eve was created sinless....how much more the New Eve in which God Himself would reside. We call this "The Immaculate Conception".

Mary undoes Eve's disobedience at the Annunciation when she consents simply "Be it done unto me according to thy word" (Although to be pregnant before wedlock meant stoning to death).

She undoes it again at the end. Mary stands under the cross (when most have fled) with the faithful Apostle John.

She stands vigil with the beloved fruit (of her womb) hanging on the Tree-of-life. She knows the "fruit is good" but she accepts the unbearable will of God to let the fruit stay on the tree-of-life for obedience sake.

So Jesus last act is to say to to her "Woman (The word used for Eve before the fall) here is your son"........And to the faithful (represented by the Apostle, John) He says "Here is your mother"

The fruit has been put back on the tree, Mary (The new Eve has left it be). So she is given motherhood of all the saved.

So "The Assumption" also. If Elijah did not experience corruption how could she who was so "full of grace"? The very flesh that fashioned Christ was not to corrupt. And if Eve had not sinned she would would not have died. Mary has reversed this....so she does not die.
 
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Halbhh

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If Mary didn't hear the word of God and keep it, would Jesus have been born? You are missing the point. Jesus is making a unity with those hear the word of God and keep it, with His mother as a model of faith (who kept the word of God), you make a false dichotomy.
Furthermore, in your interpretation, Jesus is slighting His mother, a violation of the 4th Commandment, (honor your parents). It's not the "gotcha" verse Protestants think it is.

:) I'm happy to be able to tell you I presumed no such thing as the unusually bad idea that Jesus was disrespecting Mary, and cannot even see how anyone could get that from the text even with convoluted reasoning. But, I did indeed mean just the precise question that I did ask, that very different question.

I can't see though the other part of what you've said -- that Mary is the model -- from the verse: "But he replied, 'More blessed still are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'" After all, what does "more" mean then?

To me, these words seem to mean the people who hear the Word of God and keep it are blessed, more so than just from being a mother of a righteous son by itself, which is indeed a blessing though. In Mary's case we can surmise she did indeed hear and keep the Word of God also.

So, it appears as if to mean the most blessed people are the ones that hear and obey the Words of God, better than even the big, powerful blessing of having a righteous child of great quality.

But, I am still really asking what it means to others, and hope you can explain more completely how you got your idea.
 
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Germatria1128

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You have diminished Mary to practically nothing. God obviously does not agree, given that He sent Mary to convert the Aztecs, as Our Lady of Guadelupe, and He sent her to open the healing spring of Lourdes in the 1850s, and He sent her to bring hope to the world at Fatima in 1917.

It is well that you were "born again", but God has been active in the world since 96 AD (estimated date of the completion of the last writing in the Bible), so if you really want to be fully with Him, you need to examine what He has done since, which would include sending Mary as emissary and missionary.

If your current view of the structure of the world doesn't include those facts, you need to incorporate the rest of the facts into it, and that will force you to reassess.

To me it is interesting how many of the post-96AD Marian apparitions involved young adults or children. Not absolutely---Guadeloupe involved a well-aged man---but a child-like innocence seems to be a important component in many of the BVM visitations.
 
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Right. That's why I had to wonder why you so carefully explained the history of your healings--if it didn't pertain to the kind of miracles we're dealing with here, that is.

Besides, Lourdes is not the only point made that was called into question. Remember that the theory of Jesus allegedly appointing Peter to be the head of the Apostles was also part of your presentation.

My own history is the reason that I know God performs dramatic healing miracles, and do not have skeptical doubt about the healings at Lourdes.

Lourdes is not the only point, but it is fundamental because at Lourdes it is Mary herself who confirms the Immaculate Conception, it is Lourdes that dramatically demonstrates the incorruption of the saints, and it is Lourdes where the miracles continue in our day, at a shrine to Mary, specifically dedicated to Mary. So it is at Lourdes that we have the collision of three particular doctrines that distinguish Catholicism quite sharply from the rest of Christianity, and we have the proof of divine favor regarding all of it by the fact of the ongoing river of healings there.

As far as Peter's leadership goes, I suppose we could just pick up the Gospels and Acs and start reading, front to back, noting that Peter is the central character among the Apostles, the first to do so many things, the rock, he who walked upon the water, the one two whom the keys were given, the one directed "feed my sheep", the one who spoke for the Apostles to the crowd at Pentecost, the one who faced down the Jewish authorities, the one released from prison where he had been seized by the ruler because he was the leader of the Christians, the one who was given the vision to baptize the uncircumcised, the one of whom Paul said that he "even stood up to Kephas". In the Acts, it is Peter who leads again and again. It is before Peter that Anias and Saphira fall dead.

It is surprising to me that anybody who knows the Scriptures could possibly deny that Peter was the leader of the Apostles in the absence of Jesus, and that Jesus treated and spoke to Peter as the leader.

What Peter then went on to do: lead the church at Rome, and die there, executed by orders of the Emperor, head down.

It's so obvious. Why, then, the struggle over it?
 
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