The insecurity of Calvinism

[zoidar]

Now, if we translate that to John 3:16 we get this:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him (the sheep) should not perish but have eternal life."

Nothing here about non-sheep.

Who are the "whoever" ? The sheep?

Do you mean that the "the world" should mean the "elect of the world" ? To me it's pretty clear that it means mankind.

 

[zoidar]

You would also know that Calvinists believe that the level of faith of an individual has no bearing on salvation whatsoever, because salvation is secured by God.

And if I have no level of faith, I will still be saved, because my salvation is secured by God? How do I know Jesus died for me when I'm not sure if I believe or not?

How do you know Jesus died for you? Don't say you know from looking at the cross, because the cross can only tell you Jesus died for the elect, right? So where do you look to know that Jesus died for you?

A Calvinist does not trust in the fickleness of His own faith because we recognize no man is perfect, and no believer believes perfectly. A Calvinist trusts in the sovereignty of God and trusts in the works of the only One who, born under the law, knew NO sin had became the perfect sacrificial lamb without blemish and laid down His life for His people, at the Cross.

The problem with this is that how do you know you are of His people? Again, you can't just look at the cross, can you?

 

[GillDouglas]

I suppose I still have to ask about double predestination. You don't seem to hold to that view but there are some Calvinists who do right?

There are two views of double predestination, I have given you the orthodox Calvinist asymmetrical view where God actively intervenes with the elect and passes over some. The other view, which I believe is the one you're referring to, is a symmetrical view sometimes called equal ultimacy. This view holds that God actively intervenes on both parties. This is hyper-Calvinism and this view does radical violence to the integrity of God's character.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your theology is proof enough that you do not believe or trust in the sovereignty of God. You say that you do, but it's simply not the case.

Isn't that nice how Calvinists know our own beliefs better than we do. lol.

Please keep telling me what my theology is and convince yourself that you know my heart and beliefs better than myself and God, so you can feel warm and fuzzy

 

[Hammster]

No but John 10 says that everyone can become his sheep, salvation is open to all men.

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
/Joh 10:37-38

Who are God's sheep? Those that follow him (Joh 10:27). Did you follow God before you were a Christian?

Do you know that even those that are his sheep may be lead astray? Read Matt 18.

"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."

There's no scripture that says anyone can become a sheep. That's just reading into the text something that's not there.

As to sheep being led astray, yes, that's true. And the Shepherd always goes and gets them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I like the word 'all' being used.

As in "All who come to Him in faith" and "All who believe upon Christ shall be saved".

Yes, ALL is a good word.

 

[Hammster]

I like the word 'all' being used.

As in "All who come to Him in faith" and "All who believe upon Christ shall be saved".

Yes, ALL is a good word.

I agree. And a proper understanding of context is most important to understand how it's being used.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I agree. And a proper understanding of context is most important to understand how it's being used.

Show me that God has put all in any context but the use as properly used 'all' in those verses. Context would be the verses before and after, so please show me.

 

[Hammster]

Show me that God has put all in any context but the use as properly used 'all' in those verses. Context would be the verses before and after, so please show me.

Which verses are you referring to?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Which verses are you referring to?

In post #48 I shared parts of two verses.

As in "All who come to Him in faith" and "All who believe upon Christ shall be saved"

So if you can show me the context of all in these two verses by showing the context as you said that shows that all is only the elect, which is the Calvinist viewpoint.

 

[Hammster]

In post #48 I shared parts of two verses.

As in "All who come to Him in faith" and "All who believe upon Christ shall be saved"

So if you can show me the context of all in these two verses by showing the context as you said that shows that all is only the elect, which is the Calvinist viewpoint.

I need the actual verses and reference to be able to address context.

 

[GillDouglas]

As in "All who come to Him in faith" and "All who believe upon Christ shall be saved"

Context.

 

[zoidar]

As to sheep being led astray, yes, that's true. And the Shepherd always goes and gets them.

"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish." /Matt 18

Excuse me but how do you turn an "IF" to an "ALWAYS"?

 

[GillDouglas]

"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish." /Matt 18

Excuse me but how do you turn an "IF" to an "ALWAYS"?

"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. (Luke 15:4-7)

 

[Hammster]

"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish." /Matt 18

Excuse me but how do you turn an "IF" to an "ALWAYS"?

Because Jesus is the Good Shepherd. I think He's pretty good at getting His sheep.

 

[zoidar]

"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. (Luke 15:4-7)

So the "IF" in Matt 18 is just to be blot out because Luke says "When". I believe in both verses. I believe IF he finds his sheep there will be great joy, and that will be "WHEN" he finds it.

 

[JoeP222w]

One of the big problems with Calvinism is that you can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith. How can you trust in Jesus death for you on the cross without knowing he died for you? And the only way for a Calvinist to know for sure is checking his/her own faith. So to me Calvinism starts in the wrong end.

Complete mischaracterization of Calvinism, but not surprising.

 

[JoeP222w]

What if you WANT to be saved, but you aren't CHOSEN...

You have been greatly misled.

No such person exists. No one is in Hell saying "I wanted to be saved, but God did not choose me."

No one.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


The unregenerate person is dead in their sins against God. Apart from the grace of God, no one will have the desire to be with God, in and of themselves. God is the one who makes a person a new creation and gives them the desire to be with Him. One who is non-elect will never have a desire to be with God, in and of themselves.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Romans 9:13-23 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[JoeP222w]

when it is God who is making double election to damnation.

This is an error. No one is elected to condemnation. It is the natural state of man.

John 3:17-20 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (19) And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. (20) For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

I would agree if Calvinists simply said God doesn't predestine people to damnation, but that's exactly what they say. What's more it isn't on account of the person or anything they have done that they are predestined, but it's simply God's will because God is utterly sovereign. They were predestined to damnation before they even sinned. Just as he saves independent of what the person does according to his own knowledge, he does so for the person who is damned.

Romans 9:21-23 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

A certain amount of mystery and faith in the possibility that you don't for absolute certain that you are saved.

You can know for absolute certainty:

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Knowing implies certainty. When you don't know something, there is doubt. When you know something, there is no doubt.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

What if you WANT to be saved, but you aren't CHOSEN...

Want it all you want and probably a good sign
but
Jesus said it was a work of the Holy Spirit -- period.

Jesus did not say -- now just say this little prayer with me.

Mountainmanbob