Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

[Albion]

That was clear enough, and I see what you mean. However, it seems like an impossible task to take a full account of what Roman Catholics "act like they believe" with regard to the BVM. You'll get one answer here and another there.

To be sure, practices and beliefs vary among Catholics, but accusing members of wrongful practices isn't the point for most critics (or so I am led to believe).

It's just a question of whether or not these attitudes and acts are right to do. And if they are not, it's the Catholic Church which approves of them, so regardless of which members engage in which devotions and beliefs, it's the church that's at the center of the controversy.

 

[tadoflamb]

That was clear enough, and I see what you mean. However, it seems like an impossible task to take a full account of what Roman Catholics "act like they believe" with regard to the BVM. You'll get one answer here and another there.

Unless someone had the uncanny ability to read hearts, yes, it would be an impossible task to take into account what we believe.

I've found that it's a bad idea to let non-Catholics tell me what I believe and how I worship.

To point, so far in this thread I've heard of a non-Catholic that believes we believe the BVM is a goddess, another that rejects the IC (so what?) and another who thinks they know what's in my heart from my physical disposition.

No wonder I love the Blessed Mother so much. She's spared me from all that.

 

[melody5697]

Here's the conversation I had with my friend prior to posting this (he stopped replying):
Me: There's a guy at Bronies of Phoenix who claims to be both Wiccan and Baptist.
Friend: ...
Friend: Which means he's not really a Christian
Me: Yup.
Me: I wonder how he can possibly think that he's both. There are people who call themselves "Christian Wiccans," but they don't claim to be Baptists, and they think that Mary is a goddess and they worship her.
Me: I'm pretty sure they don't actually think that they're following the same religion as REAL Christians.
Friend: Sounds like they've got some Catholic ideology behind them
Me: Catholics don't think that Mary is a goddess.
Me: Or at least the ones who have at least a basic understanding of what Catholics actually believe don't think that.
Friend: They think she's the Queen Of Heaven and the mother of God
Friend: So yeah they kinda do
Me: That's not the same thing as thinking she's a goddess at all. Are you saying that you think that they think that she came BEFORE God or something? They DON'T believe that. And you know, they believe in the Nicene Creed, and the Nicene Creed says that there is only ONE God.
Friend: The problem is, while they don't refer toher as a goddess she has been given the same status of one minus the name
Me: I'm pretty sure you're wrong. She's honored more than other saints because she's Jesus' mother, but they DO NOT think that she's an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being, and they certainly don't believe that she should actually be worshipped. There's a difference between honoring her more than they should and actually worshipping her.
Friend: You don't know much about Pantheons do you?
Me: Well, no... But Catholics still DO NOT think that Mary is a goddess. My dad knows a lot about doctrine, so even though he's not Catholic, he might be able to explain their actual beliefs.
Me: By the way, "Christian Wiccans" worship Mary as a goddess because most Wiccans are duotheists.

 

[Albion]

In any religious system in which there are multiple gods and goddesses, the idea of "God" being omnipotent, omniscient, etc. does not hold. The various gods have different powers or jurisdictions, although they're all more powerful than humans.

In other words, the question of Mary being--or not being--treated as though she is a goddess is not decided by what was said in the previous post.

 

[buzuxi02]

Please excuse me butting in but this is something I'm also interested in.
From what I've understood and observed so far I think they think highly of Mary the way the rest of us think highly of Paul or Peter, Spurgeon or Barclay. Except that they talk to her and we talk of them.

Sorry I have no beef in this but Peter and Paul and Mary I know. But who in the world is Spurgeon and Barclay?

 

[Saint Beloved]

Sorry I have no beef in this but Peter and Paul and Mary I know. But who in the world i's Spurgeon and Barclay

British/English and Scottish theologians. C H Spurgeon was a Reformed Baptist and William Barclay was Church of Scotland/Anglican I think.

 

[melody5697]

Uh, I'm the one who started this thread in the first place. I included the conversation with my friend as additional information because it seems like we're disagreeing on what my friend meant. I think that he means that he thinks that Catholics actually believe that Mary is a goddess. Some of you think that he just means that Catholics treat her like a goddess. I thought that posting the conversation would show people what he actually meant. I suppose I should have said that.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

And she IS NOT given the status of a goddess, correct? Before I show this thread to my friend, I'd like for someone to clearly state that she isn't given a status equivalent to that of a goddess. I understand, of course, that she has been given no such status by the Catholic Church, but my friend doesn't.

No, just the opposite in fact. She is humanity at it's absolute best, humanity, as God originally intended it. She is the human being ever (apart from Jesus, but He is also fully God as well as fully human, so He is an exception).

Our Lady is the Mediatrix of all Graces, because she mediated between us, and the Father, and conceded to conceive God the Son in her womb. Thus she it is only fitting that she be appointed by God as, Mediatrix of all Graces.

 

[Widlast]

And she IS NOT given the status of a goddess, correct? Before I show this thread to my friend, I'd like for someone to clearly state that she isn't given a status equivalent to that of a goddess. I understand, of course, that she has been given no such status by the Catholic Church, but my friend doesn't.

There is only the ONE GOD, single in nature, triune in being, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Mary is a created being, human, who was born a woman, lived, and died. Due to her complete obedience to the Will of God she is honored above all other women (and mortals in general).

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Mary is a created being, human, who was born a woman, lived, and died.

I hope you mean that in the Eastern Catholic way, and not in the none Catholic way.

 

[Widlast]

I hope you mean that in the Eastern Catholic way, and not in the none Catholic way.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean by "none Catholic way".
I am Roman Catholic, BTW.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean by "none Catholic way".
I am Roman Catholic, BTW.

Well, it's Catholic Dogma that Mary was assumed, body and soul into Heaven, she never died, at least not in the way that everyone else dies. Now the Eastern Catholic belief is that Mary went through a Dormition, a kind of sleep, in which all her vitals stopped and she was placed in a tomb for three days, after which, she was reawakened and then assumed, body and soul, into Heaven.

I personally, sort of lean in favour of the Eastern view, because, I have a devotion to Our Lady of Sorrows and I like the idea of Our Lady, imitating Our Lord by lying in the tomb for three days, like Our Lord.

 

[PeaceB]

Sure. There is no absolute answer, but one side is saying that they are concerned that Mary is treated as though she were a goddess, while the other is saying that they know better, that she is NOT thought by them to be a goddess.

Do you notice that the second group does not actually address the concern? It's not that any church has proclaimed her to BE a goddess; it's that members treat her as though she were one.

So what's the answer? First, I hope that there's no question that to treat Mary as though she were a goddess is wrong, regardless of what one states when asked. OK?

What proves--if anything--that a wrongful attitude exists with regard to Mary? It's not that she is to be honored as the birthgiver of Our Lord, or that she is regarded as a saint. But how do people approach or treat her? Well, they attribute to her the power to dispense grace and favors on behalf of God. They believe that she can insure that the person praying to her, if certain conditions are met, will not die without a last chance to repent of their sins and be saved. Many consider her to be the co-redeemer, with Jesus, of mankind. And much more in that vein. They are obviously not just honoring her.

But are they treating or looking upon her or acting in the manner that one would if dealing with a goddess? That's the issue.

Well let me resolve the issue for you. The answer is no. The correct or incorrect belief that person A has been granted by God an authority or power to do X is not treating or acting as though person A is a deity.

 

[PeaceB]

It's not geared to Scripture. And it's not even geared to Tradition (despite the mountains of posts Catholics create in order to defend Tradition). It's just low-level speculation

Perhaps, but this is the basis for Sola Scriptura, and you do not seem to have any problem with that.

 

[frettr00]

She's the real deal. I experienced an outpouring of the holy spirit that brought me back to God when I started praying the rosary.

 

[JacksBratt]

I believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Immaculate Conception, that she was preserved by her Son from the stain of original sin.

I believe that she is the Mother of God.

I believe that she is the Mother of the Church.

I believe that she is Perpetually Virgin.

I believe that she was assumed body and soul into Heaven.

I believe that she was crowned the Queen of Heaven.

I believe that she does hear our prayers.

I believe that she was the greatest Catholic mystic of all time.

I believe that her and Christ were the two people in history who could best discern the will of God.

I believe she is responsible for introducing me to her glorious Son. This is why I also believe she is our co-mediatrix.

I believe that I can never love her as much as Jesus did.

I believe that she loves roses.

I believe we should 'behold our mother'.

That's it for now.

I admire your solid belief.. However, can you give me scripture to back up each of these claims.

I do believe she was Christ's earthly mother and gave birth to our God/Man savior. However, for the other claims, do you have scripture?

 

[OpenYourBibles]

Why does Mary not receive this level of devotion in the Bible - like from the other disciples or even really from Jesus?

In fact doesn't Jesus ask one of his disciples... "Who is my mother and who are my brethren, but those that obey the will of my father?"

How does all of this EXTRA-biblical veneration, and belief in her assumption, and the idea of her own immaculate conception hold water?

Surely ideas of such importance warranted mention in scripture - Even Enoch, who we know very little about through scripture - his translation/assumption into heaven is reported - Why not the mother of Jesus?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

he robs banks and embezzles money, but we would never call him a crook.

 

[Vicomte13]

Some of the Catholics on this thread have put out there the dogmas regarding Mary - Immaculate Conception, voluntarily siinless through life, perpetual virginity, assumption into heaven. What hasn't been mentioned yet is the use that God has made of Mary as emissary to man on several occasions. Her appearance at Guadalupe in Spanish Mexico was the incident that caused the Mesoamerican Indians to go over to Christ en masse. The evangelization of missionaries did not get very far, but when God sent Mary, the people came over to Christ. Mary in this role was the most effective evangelist in history.
Likewise, he appearance at Lourdes opened up a new and very powerful witness to the power of God in the modern age: the unending stream of amazing medical miracles that harness even science as a witness to the divine. The Marian visitations, coming as they have later in time that the First Century, are obviously not in the Bible, but are also divine revelations, and quite public ones. Their reality demonstrates the incompleteness of Sola Scriptura. God continues to express himself and reveal his will, and in recent times Mary has been the most prominent divine ambassador.
Catholics, of course, believe that the Curch is a living body with the Holy Spirit actively breathing within it, and God continuing to reveal himself and the way forward for mankind. The dispatching of Mary to reveal things such as the Immaculate Conception is part of this ongoing revelation to the world.

Obviously this leaves Bible Alone behind, because the last book of the Bible was completed in the First Century, but God's revelations have continued. The Bible is Holy, but it is not a complete record of God's revelations. Those have gone on through the Church since the First Century, through the acts of the saints. And there is no saint greater in God's favor than Saint Mary.

 

[Vicomte13]

Why does Mary not receive this level of devotion in the Bible - like from the other disciples or even really from Jesus?

In fact doesn't Jesus ask one of his disciples... "Who is my mother and who are my brethren, but those that obey the will of my father?"

How does all of this EXTRA-biblical veneration, and belief in her assumption, and the idea of her own immaculate conception hold water?

Surely ideas of such importance warranted mention in scripture - Even Enoch, who we know very little about through scripture - his translation/assumption into heaven is reported - Why not the mother of Jesus?

Because Mary's use by God as his emissary came after the First Century, so there would not be anything in the Bible about it, obviously.