What Does Atheism Profit Atheists?

[Freodin]

What you got, you got by the choice of your parents, who knew what was best for you.

I would love people like you to stop making definitive statements about things they haven't the tiniest clue about.

You don't know anything about me, my parents, my history, my education, my options or my choices... but still you consider yourself qualified to make such a broad - and completely false - statement about me.

And then you wonder why we don't think you have any truth to offer, any answers to give? You keep proving to us that you'd rather keep to your falsehoods than to learn anything that might contradict your preconceived ideas.

I beg your pardon; all atheists are doing on this forum is being Monty Python characters...

Whom are you to ask about the faith if not the preacher / priest? I don't buy this ''over the edge'' point of yours. If they loved God with all their heart and their preacher as well, they would have been aware that no one is perfect; no one can take you to the place if you are not prepared to go there.

You would have to take that up with them, not me. I never deconverted, so I am the wrong person to explain such a voyage. But to dismiss it out of hand simply because you "don't buy this" is just another of those condescending mannerisms that make people like me doubt in your "fruits".

 

[just a believing guy]

Rock isn't the basis of modern music. But it isn't solely derived from Gospel, but also contains major elements of Blues and Jazz... music styles not being based on any "Christian" source.


It still comes from humans.


The Mona Lisa? Botticelli's "Birth of Aphrodite"? Even Michelangelo's "David"?

Again, you pick and chose and ignore all that does not confirm with your views.

You aren't aware that Blues and Jazz are derived from Gospel, one more example of lack of knowledge on your part.

It comes from Christians, you cannot prove that they weren't Christians, because they were.

You present only three exaples of conditionally non-Christian Renaissance art works, what ybout all the other works.

 

[quatona]

This shouldn't have stopped you, for example, as an atheist to present your questions about Christianity?

1. I am pretty well-versed when it comes to Christianity.
2. Apparently you overread this: When I have questions about theology I am going to ask the experts (and - since apparently you need me to be more direct - not an anonymous poster on the internet who has problems with basic logic).

 

[Freodin]

You aren't aware that Blues and Jazz are derived from Gospel, one more example of lack of knowledge on your part.

Neither Blues nor Jazz are derived from Gospel.

It comes from Christians, you cannot prove that they weren't Christians, because they were.

There you are again, selectively picking and chosing and defining your goals into existence.

You present only three exaples of conditionally non-Christian Renaissance art works, what ybout all the other works.

You said: "The most distinguished art works of the Renaissance are about God."
I presented three of the most distinguished art works of the Renaissance. They are not about God. Do you deny that these pieces are among the most distinguished art works of the Renaissance?

So you mean "all the others, except those I will ignore when you mention them".
Picking and chosing.
See, I do not deny that many humans made many beautiful works based on faith, often even inspired by their own personal faith. This is something humans do. And in the same way, this is something that humans do not do: they also create many beautiful works based on other ideas, and very often even simply based on their talent and a need to pay their bills.

You don't need God to explain that. Humans are sufficient to explain that.

 

[just a believing guy]

I would love people like you to stop making definitive statements about things they haven't the tiniest clue about.

You don't know anything about me, my parents, my history, my education, my options or my choices... but still you consider yourself qualified to make such a broad - and completely false - statement about me.

And then you wonder why we don't think you have any truth to offer, any answers to give? You keep proving to us that you'd rather keep to your falsehoods than to learn anything that might contradict your preconceived ideas.


You would have to take that up with them, not me. I never deconverted, so I am the wrong person to explain such a voyage. But to dismiss it out of hand simply because you "don't buy this" is just another of those condescending mannerisms that make people like me doubt in your "fruits".

You cannot possibly deny that your choice to attend Christian religious classes was the product of your upbringing and your immediate surroundings to which you were exposed (the civilization your parents belonged to).
So, what falsehoods?

Say what you will about me, but how one can apostate from Christianity if one loves God with all their heart and their neighbor as well, is beyond me...

 

[just a believing guy]

Neither Blues nor Jazz are derived from Gospel.


There you are again, selectively picking and chosing and defining your goals into existence.


You said: "The most distinguished art works of the Renaissance are about God."
I presented three of the most distinguished art works of the Renaissance. They are not about God. Do you deny that these pieces are among the most distinguished art works of the Renaissance?

So you mean "all the others, except those I will ignore when you mention them".
Picking and chosing.
See, I do not deny that many humans made many beautiful works based on faith, often even inspired by their own personal faith. This is something humans do. And in the same way, this is something that humans do not do: they also create many beautiful works based on other ideas, and very often even simply based on their talent and a need to pay their bills.

You don't need God to explain that. Humans are sufficient to explain that.

Where are blues and Jazz derived from? And what was the influence of Gospel had to do with the derivation?

If the artists who made all these works were Christians, and they were, it is proven that Christianity is true; nowhere else in the world does one can see such beauty.

 

[Freodin]

You cannot possibly deny that your choice to attend Christian religious classes was the product of your upbringing and your immediate surroundings to which you were exposed (the civilization your parents belonged to).
So, what falsehoods?

Again, you do not know anything about me, my upbringing or my parents. So how can you make a statement like this?
You are making assumptions that aren't based on any factual knowledge, but exclusively on your preconceptions... and they are false.
Stop it! Just stop it. Remember the first law of holes!

Say what you will about me, but how one can apostate from Christianity if one loves God with all their heart and their neighbor as well, is beyond me...

Your understanding is not the ultima ratio for humanity. You said it yourself: nobody is perfect. Accept that you aren't perfect either, and not suited to judge the religious position of others.

 

[just a believing guy]

''Again, you do not know anything about me, my upbringing or my parents. So how can you make a statement like this?
You are making assumptions that aren't based on any factual knowledge, but exclusively on your preconceptions... and they are false.
Stop it! Just stop it. Remember the first law of holes!''

And what makes you any different from other people who choose Christianity as their religious subject in school?

''Your understanding is not the ultima ratio for humanity. You said it yourself: nobody is perfect. Accept that you aren't perfect either, and not suited to judge the religious position of thers.''

Nobody is perfect, but a Christian is encouraged by Christ to become perfect. Therefore, my suggestion to other-believers would to switch to Christianity, as it most certainly promotes perfection.
Prove me otherwise.

 

[Freodin]

Where are blues and Jazz derived from? And what was the influence of Gospel had to do with the derivation?

Several sources, different european and african and caribean musicial styles (many of them definitly non Christian), and, yes, among these sources Spirituals and Gospels. Which in turn were based on existing european, african and carib styles. Gospel music didn't fall from heaven, you know.

If the artists who made all these works were Christians, and they were, it is proven that Christianity is true; nowhere else in the world does one can see such beauty.

Only by exclusion of all the beauty seen elsewhere in the world. But that is your chosen approach, isn't it? Declare everything you like to belong to you, and declare everything you reject as unworthy of consideration. This is a pathetic fruit!

 

[Freodin]

And what makes you any different from other people who choose Christianity as their religious subject in school?

Trying to switch the subject, are you?
You keep digging your hole ever deeper.

You started with "atheists don't read the Bible". This is false, based on my personal experience.
Then you switched to "well, this was your parents doing what was best for you". This is false, based on my personal experience.
Then you switched to "your religious education is a result of your enviroment and upbringing". This is false, based on my personal experience.
And why do you now try to compare me, who you know nothing about, to other people... that you most likely also know nothing about?

What I am, what I learned, where I went and why I did it does in no way mean anything to the point that your statements about atheists are false.

Nobody is perfect, but a Christian is encouraged by Christ to become perfect. Therefore, my suggestion to other-believers would to switch to Christianity, as it most certainly promotes perfection.
Prove me otherwise.

That's easy. Christianity promotes perfection, you claim. You are not perfect, by own admission, and by constant demonstration. You are far from perfect, very far!

So it seems that Christianity fails in what it promotes.

 

[just a believing guy]

Trying to switch the subject, are you?
You keep digging your hole ever deeper.

You started with "atheists don't read the Bible". This is false, based on my personal experience.
Then you switched to "well, this was your parents doing what was best for you". This is false, based on my personal experience.
Then you switched to "your religious education is a result of your enviroment and upbringing". This is false, based on my personal experience.
And why do you now try to compare me, who you know nothing about, to other people... that you most likely also know nothing about?

What I am, what I learned, where I went and why I did it does in no way mean anything to the point that your statements about atheists are false.



That's easy. Christianity promotes perfection, you claim. You are not perfect, by own admission, and by constant demonstration. You are far from perfect, very far!

So it seems that Christianity fails in what it promotes.

I am not switching the subject. I put you into the group the majority of atheists fall into. Prove that the majority of atheists read the Bible. And, you won't be able to do so. You know why? Because you cannot speak in the name of this majority -- so I am kind of using your logic.

You know what is great about Christianity in fact? -- it makes you perfect by trying to become perfect.

 

[just a believing guy]

Several sources, different european and african and caribean musicial styles (many of them definitly non Christian), and, yes, among these sources Spirituals and Gospels. Which in turn were based on existing european, african and carib styles. Gospel music didn't fall from heaven, you know.


Only by exclusion of all the beauty seen elsewhere in the world. But that is your chosen approach, isn't it? Declare everything you like to belong to you, and declare everything you reject as unworthy of consideration. This is a pathetic fruit!

Exactly, Providence at work. The Carrebean and African styles originated from American and Carrebean Pre-Gospels (slaves singing and playing their pre-drums).

How did I declare everything as unworthy of consideration? The most that you could deduce from the above post is that the East immitates the West and not the other way aroung.

 

[Freodin]

I am not switching the subject. I put you into the group the majority of atheists fall into. Prove that the majority of atheists read the Bible. And, you won't be able to do so. You know why? Because you cannot speak in the name of this majority -- so I am kind of using your logic.

There are atheists who do not read the Bible. There are atheists who do not read the Quran, and still have no problems declaring that they don't believe in Allah. There are atheists who read the Bible and the Quran and the Vedes and the Eddas... and still are atheists.

There are Christians who don't read the Bible. There are Christians who read the Quran. There are Christians who read the Book of Mormon. There are Christians who think the Book of Mormon is satanical fiction.

You know what all that means?
It means that your limited understanding of what other people do is irrelevant for them... and that your false statements about them based on this limited understanding does nothing by to undermine your own position.

But just keep on digging.

You know what is great about Christianity in fact? -- it makes you perfect by trying to become perfect.

You know what is so great about atheism? It makes you perfect by having you admit that you are not perfect.

Yep, sounds good. I will keep that.

 

[Freodin]

Exactly, Providence at work. The Carrebean and African styles originated from American and Carrebean Pre-Gospels (slaves singing and playing their pre-drums).

So... satanic heavy metal is providence now? Maybe you are hailing the wrong deity?

How did I declare everything as unworthy of consideration?

"nowhere else in the world does one can see such beauty."
Here. Every other beauty in the world is incomparable to that "Christian" beauty. East immitates West. Even if the eastern art is centuries or millenia older. Or not influenced by western art at all. In which cases you simply ignore it. It is not beauty at all. Or call it "providence"... just primitive precursors upon which the true "Christian" beauty can shine."

As I said: pathetic.

The most that you could deduce from the above post is that the East immitates the West and not the other way aroung.

You do know why the Renaissance is called the Renaissance, do you?

 

[just a believing guy]

There are atheists who do not read the Bible. There are atheists who do not read the Quran, and still have no problems declaring that they don't believe in Allah. There are atheists who read the Bible and the Quran and the Vedes and the Eddas... and still are atheists.

There are Christians who don't read the Bible. There are Christians who read the Quran. There are Christians who read the Book of Mormon. There are Christians who think the Book of Mormon is satanical fiction.

You know what all that means?
It means that your limited understanding of what other people do it irrelevant for them... and that your false statements about them based on this limited understanding does nothing by to undermine your own position.

But just keep on digging.


You know what is so great about atheism? It makes you perfect by having you admit that you are not perfect.

Yep, sounds good. I will keep that.

Don't project your digging on me; it's you who's doing the digging: atheists reading the Bible?, don't make me laugh.

I cannot speak for others as you yourself rightfully pointed it out to me. But to call the Mormons Christian would be exaggeration.
There are Christians who read other 'sacred' books in order to promote their own general knowledge, to educate themselves, as they see the finger of God in many faiths: a man has to think with his own head and choose what he finds the best.

So, atheism is all about paradoxes, then? I like it, too, as I like the Monty Python clowns.

Finally: Did you know that there was such a thing called ''mainline Christianity''?

 

[just a believing guy]

So... satanic heavy metal is providence now? Maybe you are hailing the wrong deity?


"nowhere else in the world does one can see such beauty."
Here. Every other beauty in the world is incomparable to that "Christian" beauty. East immitates West. Even if the eastern art is centuries or millenia older. Or not influenced by western art at all. In which cases you simply ignore it. It is not beauty at all. Or call it "providence"... just primitive precursors upon which the true "Christian" beauty can shine."

As I said: pathetic.


You do know why the Renaissance is called the Renaissance, do you?

Satanic heavy metal doesn't ring a bell with me, nor am I interested in it. But, to deny that all modern music derived from Pre-Gospel would be... I don't know how to call it.

I thought of today's East and West.

Providence pathetic? OK.

Of couse I do. Renaissance was all about the glorification of the humanity, but glorification not by itself, but by God.

 

[Freodin]

Don't project your digging on me; it's you who's doing the digging: atheists reading the Bible?, don't make me laugh.

See, here you go again. Here you are directly confronted with an atheist who tells you that he reads the Bible, that he knows a lot of other atheists who read the Bible.
And you ignore it, based on your preconceived ideas.

Do you think I am lying to you? Are you calling my a liar?

I cannot speak for others as you yourself rightfully pointed it out to me. But to call the Mormons Christian would be exaggeration.
There are Christians who read other 'sacred' books in order to promote their own general knowledge, to educate themselves, as they see the finger of God in many faiths: a man has to think with his own head and choose what he finds the best.

Christians promoting their own general knowledge, educating themselves, even with works they don't believe in... that is fine for you. But atheists doing that... ridiculous! A laughing matter!

Keep digging!

So, atheism is all about paradoxes, then? I like it, too, as I like the Monty Python clowns.

Not more than Christianity, it seems.

Finally: Did you know that there was such a thing called ''mainline Christianity''?

You mean the few doctrines that Christians fall back when not calling each others heretics?

 

[just a believing guy]

See, here you go again. Here you are directly confronted with an atheist who tells you that he reads the Bible, that he knows a lot of other atheists who read the Bible.
And you ignore it, based on your preconceived ideas.

Do you think I am lying to you? Are you calling my a liar?


Christians promoting their own general knowledge, educating themselves, even with works they don't believe in... that is fine for you. But atheists doing that... ridiculous! A laughing matter!

Keep digging!


Not more than Christianity, it seems.


You mean the few doctrines that Christians fall back when not calling each others heretics?

Reading and studying the Bible are two different things. However, you cannot read the Bible unless you study it.

How can a true atheist promote their general knowledge by reading the Bible if they don't study the Bible?

Christianity is non-rational, it isn't paradoxical.

 

[Freodin]

Satanic heavy metal doesn't ring a bell with me, nor am I interested in it.

It's type of rock... and thus, accoring to you, of divine origin. But as we have seen before, you tend to ignore everything that doesn't fit into your preconceived worldview.

But, to deny that all modern music derived from Pre-Gospel would be... I don't know how to call it.

Most modern music is derived from not-modern music. Not all of it is derived from the lines that lead to Gospel or Blues, or Jazz, or Rock. A lot of it is not derived from european music at all.
But again (sigh: again!) you simply ignore everything outside of your narrow field of view.

I thought of today's East and West.

While talking about the Renaissance. Yes, keep digging. And keep showing your limited field of view.

Of couse I do. Renaissance was all about the glorification of the humanity, but glorification not by itself, but by God.

Where did you get from? The Renaissance got its name from the idea of the rebirth of the classical era, after what the contemporaries considered the "dark ages" after the fall of the Roman empire. That's why so many renaissance works of art are based on classical pagan concepts, ideas, background and formats. They incorporated these forms also to do works about God... no surprise considering the dominant religion... but they didn't do it to "glorify humanity by God".

 

[Freodin]

Reading and studying the Bible are two different things. However, you cannot read the Bible unless you study it.

How can a true atheist promote their general knowledge by reading the Bible if they don't study the Bible?

You can only make such a statement when you start from the idea that "study" means "to agree with".

A lot of atheists studied the Bible. Many atheists will tell you that studying the Bible was what made them atheists.

Christianity is non-rational, it isn't paradoxical.

Atheism isn't paradoxical either. You just don't understand it.