pshun challenge

[NathanM.]

Pshun wrote:

Bats, like turtles, are a great example of the “suddenly appearing fully formed” organism. It is agreed by most that bats arose somewhere about 80 to 100 mya. This means they were here at the same time as dinosaurs. They were present for the extinction event of 65 mya, and yet remained.

CHALLENGE:

How many bat-kinds do you suppose were on the ark?

I ask because there are around 1000 species around today.

If there was but a single breeding Kind-pair, and the ark myth supposedly happened 4500 years ago, that is roughly 1 speciation even every 4 years or so.

What is your proposed, evidence-supported mechanism for this?

 

[jacks]

and don't forget....

The evidence is on the same bat-time, bat-channel you usually tune into.

 

[tstor]

What is your proposed, evidence-supported mechanism for this?

There need not be one. We know the timeframe because the Bible tells us. We know the flood happened and that Noah saved the species on an ark because the Bible tells us. Anything not explicitly articulated in the Bible is mere speculation.

 

[tstor]

We do not know any of the things you claimed.

I take it that you cannot help pshun out.

Thanks for (not) trying.

You do not know any of what? What the Bible teaches?

 

[tstor]

Please stay on topic.

Can you provide a mechanism for the massive scale of bat speciation post-flood or not?

I am very much on topic. Regarding your question, Google is wonderful tool:
Speciation and the Animals on the Ark | The Institute for Creation Research

 

[Shemjaza]

I am very much on topic. Regarding your question, Google is wonderful tool:
Speciation and the Animals on the Ark | The Institute for Creation Research

Hyper fast evolution... no mechanism for it nor any evidence for it in the genetic or fossil record.

When species go through genetic bottlenecks it reduces their genetic diversity. The implication of that idea is that the entire genetic diversity of multiple species could develop in mere centuries from only two individuals.

 

[pshun2404]

Hyper fast evolution... no mechanism for it nor any evidence for it in the genetic or fossil record.

When species go through genetic bottlenecks it reduces their genetic diversity. The implication of that idea is that the entire genetic diversity of multiple species could develop in mere centuries from only two individuals.

And that from an atheist....

 

[pshun2404]

Just to add an additional factoid...bats were unclean animals and so two pairs (male and female) went on board. Seven pairs of each clean animal.

Also since challenged I might add that I do not believe Bishop Ussher got the timeline correct. When we learned about ancient Mesopotamian cultures we note a couple versions of Kings lists some having 7 others 10 to their Noah figure (whatever that culture called him). It was not uncommon for cultures in that time to simply eliminate names and their generations of people they thought unworthy or evil or who opposed the subsequent King (which could represent Kingdoms).

What I do think is interesting though is that peoples discovered though the Bible (like the Assyrians and the Hittites) and others like the Ethiopians/Sudanese, demonstrate in their ancient records from prior to 1400 BC when Moses formed the Torah their relationship to people found only in the account of the book of the generations of Noah (Hittites children of Heth, Assyria children of Assur, Nubians children of Kush (we say Cush) and so on (there are more)

So we have four primary source bats in the Noah story and each female has about three litters per season (usually only one offspring at a time) so first season the number became a minimum of ten, the more females born the greater the number in the next generation, and so on.

Now though there is no way to do the math accurately it is certainly possible.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Or, you know, chiropterans evolved tens of millions of years ago during the early Eocene.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Shemjaza]

And that from an atheist....

The hyper-evolution proposed by YECs to fill the logical gaps left by the flood narrative are completely counter to evidence.

If you are comfortable in abandoning science, then feel free to do so. An omnipotent deity is an explanation for any mystery, but you can no longer claim evidence or reason have any real meaning.

 

[AV1611VET]

How many bat-kinds do you suppose were on the ark?

One.

More than that, and they wouldn't be bats.

Kind = Genus

I ask because there are around 1000 species around today.

And they're all in the same genus, right?

If there was but a single breeding Kind-pair, and the ark myth supposedly happened 4500 years ago, that is roughly 1 speciation even every 4 years or so.

Unless the same bat produced more than one species.

A cocker spaniel can mate with another cocker spaniel and produce a cocker spaniel.

Then the same one can mate with a poodle and produce a cockapoo.

What is your proposed, evidence-supported mechanism for this?

Logic.

More than one kind would make it another animal altogether.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Has generational genetic mutations in bats been studied? Apparently humans have at least 50.

 

[Jimmy D]

Unless the same bat produced more than one species.

This magical proto-bat gave birth to a vampire, a fruit bat, a pipistrelle etc? You don't honestly believe this stuff do you?

 

[AV1611VET]

This magical proto-bat gave birth to a vampire, a fruit bat, a pipistrelle etc? You don't honestly believe this stuff do you?

I'll tell you what I don't believe:

I don't believe it was done over a period of millions of years, and that there was no flood.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A cocker spaniel can mate with another cocker spaniel and produce a cocker spaniel.

Then the same one can mate with a poodle and produce a cockapoo.Logic.

More than one kind would make it another animal altogether.

No, that's not speciation. Speciation is a population level process; a minimum breeding population size is necessary for a species to be viable.

If you wish to rely on conventional the explanations of physics, chemistry, & biology, you have to accept the constraints of those processes. Alternatively, you could maintain that GodDidIt via some supernatural or magical process, in which case the whole thing is moot - Last Thursdayism goes back on the menu.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, that's not speciation.

Let me get this straight. A cocker spaniel mates with a poodle, giving rise to a cockapoo, and that cockapoo is not a new species?

 

[Jimmy D]

I'll tell you what I don't believe:

I don't believe it was done over a period of millions of years, and that there was no flood.

Each to his own I suppose.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Let me get this straight. A cocker spaniel mates with a poodle, giving rise to a cockapoo, and that cockapoo is not a new species?

A cocker spaniel and a poodle are the same species, and so the offspring, whatever you want to call it is, is the same species.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Larniavc]

Unless the same bat produced more than one species.

Can a tiger reproduce with a sand cat?

They should, according to you post.

 

[AV1611VET]

A cocker spaniel and a poodle are the same species, and so the offspring, whatever you want to call it is, is the same species.

That's what I thought.

Same species, different breeds.

Nice way for science to get around that problem, isn't it?

Dogs = different breeds, but [for some reason] bats = different species.

Only Satan could make propaganda like that stick.