The Philosophical implications of Multiverse Theory?

[Thursday]

The idea of an entity mechanically spinning off multiple timelines brings into serious question the motive why such an entity would be eternally engaging in such a repetitive activity. For example, why would he not be satisfied with just one timeline? What benefits are there for mankind and for him in creating all these timelines?

Perhaps each of us could be worthy of saving in at least one universe. This could allow universal salvation while maintaining free will.

 

[Radrook]

Perhaps each of us could be worthy of saving in at least one universe. This could allow universal salvation while maintaining free will.

So he would be spinning out universes in order to see in which one would produce humans worth saving? So how many times would Jesus need to die? Billions of times? That would be contrary to scripture which tell us that he died once and for all times.

Hebrews 9:28

 

[DennisTate]

The idea of an entity mechanically spinning off multiple timelines brings into serious question the motive why such an entity would be eternally engaging in such a repetitive activity. For example, why would he not be satisfied with just one timeline? What benefits are there for mankind and for him in creating all these timelines?

Good question......
Eventual Universal Salvation.......
and step, by step, by step incremental progress toward that goal would be my first answer.

 

[DennisTate]

Perhaps each of us could be worthy of saving in at least one universe. This could allow universal salvation while maintaining free will.

Exactly what I think as well!

 

[DennisTate]

The multiverse theory might be viewed as just clever a way of evading the compelling religious issues which our universe's fine tuning forces us to contemplate.

I suppose that is possible ....
and I do have to admit that I personally do NOT believe in an unlimited
or nearly infinite number of time lines.......
My belief is that the G-d of Abraham and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and the Holy Spirit
decide on a very limited number of time lines that obey some logic........

The verse in REvelation about the rest of the dead not living until the thousand years was finished is
in my opinion important in this.....

 

[Radrook]

I suppose that is possible ....
and I do have to admit that I personally do NOT believe in an unlimited
or nearly infinite number of time lines.......
My belief is that the G-d of Abraham and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and the Holy Spirit
decide on a very limited number of time lines that obey some logic........

The verse in REvelation about the rest of the dead not living until the thousand years was finished is
in my opinion important in this.....

How is it important?

 

[DennisTate]

How is it important?

It could perhaps mean that the next major Ezekiel 37 event does not take place until somewhere after the year 3030 or 3070 depending on when the Revelation 21 massive Jerusalem Fourth Temple comes down and fits on top of the Ezekiel 40 - 48 temple that is in use during the Millennium.

 

[DennisTate]

Perhaps each of us could be worthy of saving in at least one universe. This could allow universal salvation while maintaining free will.

Exactly!

Some near death experiencers have been told things about Eventual Universal Salvation that
if it had been told to the Apostle Paul, (perhaps after his being stoned to the point where he appeared dead), Paul might have considered those ideas 'unlawful to be uttered."

But a number of years later in Romans 11.... he sure does come pretty close to elaborating on this idea.

2Corinthians 12:2

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

 

[DennisTate]

Hate to sound hyper-technical but I don't believe "multiverse" even rises to the level of a theory; it's an idea, a speculation. And quantum mechanics which is much more solid, with aspects of it proven experimentally, is still open to over a dozen philosophical interpretations, some of which include the idea of multiverse. So it's hard to say at this point anyway.

The following statement from a visionary dream that was given to Pastor Rick Joyner is about 90% of the way down this page.... .but is this true?

Can Messiah Yeshua - Jesus resurrect all the dead without even straining?????

The Final Quest [English] Rick Joyner

The Power of His Word

“You seek to know and walk in My power so that you can heal the sick and perform miracles, but you have not even begun to comprehend the power of My word. To resurrect all the dead who have ever lived on earth will not even cause Me to strain. I uphold all things by the power of My word. The creation exists because of My word, and it is held together by My word.

“Before the end, I will reveal My power on earth. Even so, the greatest power that I have ever revealed on the earth, or ever will, is still a very small demonstration of My power I do not reveal My power to cause men to believe in My power, but to cause men to believe in My love.

“If I had wanted to save the world with My power when I walked the earth, I could have moved mountains by pointing a finger Then all men would have bowed to Me, but not because they loved Me or loved the truth, but because they feared My power I do not want men to obey Me because they fear My power, but because they love Me and love the truth.

“If you do not know My love, then My power will corrupt you. I do not give you love so you can know My power, but I give you power so that you can know My love. The goal of your life must be love, not power Then I will give you power with which to love people. I will give you the power to heal the sick because you love them, and I love them, and I do not want them sick." (Pastor Rick Joyner, The Final Quest and The Call)

 

[Radrook]

The following statement from a visionary dream that was given to Pastor Rick Joyner is about 90% of the way down this page.... .but is this true?

Can Messiah Yeshua - Jesus resurrect all the dead without even straining?????

The Final Quest [English] Rick Joyner

According to the following scripture yes.

Matthew 19:26
New International Version
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

 

[FredVB]

So he would be spinning out universes in order to see in which one would produce humans worth saving? So how many times would Jesus need to die? Billions of times? That would be contrary to scripture which tell us that he died once and for all times.
Hebrews 9:28

All people are worth it to Yahweh God to save, that does not mean we are worthy, with things we do, but in some way God sees what is of value with what we were meant for with our creation. But God gives us opportunities, and if we never take those to respond, God cuts us off with no more opportunity toward salvation, as with God's justice there will be consequences to the sin we still face, alternate universes will not have any effectiveness for this, and it all is involved with this universe where we make relevant choices before we enter to what we face in eternity, and realms of God's sole existence, of Heaven, and of Hell, outside of it.

It could perhaps mean that the next major Ezekiel 37 event does not take place until somewhere after the year 3030 or 3070 depending on when the Revelation 21 massive Jerusalem Fourth Temple comes down and fits on top of the Ezekiel 40 - 48 temple that is in use during the Millennium.

No, there is the renewed world in place of the one that flees away, Revelation 20:11, and the city of Heaven, the "new Jerusalem", is on the great mountain, a heavenly Zion, beyond all measurable things on this earth by far, that from its peak to its base reaches from the heaven to the earth. It will not correspond to what could ever be on this earth, the way it is, and certainly with curse that is on it (Genesis 3).

 

[DennisTate]

All people are worth it to Yahweh God to save, that does not mean we are worthy, with things we do, but in some way God sees what is of value with what we were meant for with our creation. But God gives us opportunities, and if we never take those to respond, God cuts us off with no more opportunity toward salvation, as with God's justice there will be consequences to the sin we still face, alternate universes will not have any effectiveness for this, and it all is involved with this universe where we make relevant choices before we enter to what we face in eternity, and realms of God's sole existence, of Heaven, and of Hell, outside of it.



No, there is the renewed world in place of the one that flees away, Revelation 20:11, and the city of Heaven, the "new Jerusalem", is on the great mountain, a heavenly Zion, beyond all measurable things on this earth by far, that from its peak to its base reaches from the heaven to the earth. It will not correspond to what could ever be on this earth, the way it is, and certainly with curse that is on it (Genesis 3).

Interesting.... I have got to read this again!

We listened to another Pastor Todd White video yesterday evening. It was amazing how effectively he used his messed up 22 years as a drug addict to get his audience inspired to want the baptism of the Holy Spirit......

 

[DennisTate]

According to the following scripture yes.

Yes.... I agree that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in His eternal form would have the ability to do essentially anything that He could visualize......

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Had another look at the OP, and I think the 'AboveAlpha' quotes need explaining in more detail. For example:

"Multiversal Polymorphic Algebraic Equasions to set up the Calculus and several new Calculus symbols had to be developed."​

Multiversal Polymorphic Algebraic theories are nothing to do with the multiverse - they deal with multiple 'type universes' (i.e. everything relating to a type), and the idea of having to develop new calculus symbols seems... far-fetched.

Sounds like BS to me. But hey, if someone can post a clear explanation, of what MPAs have to do with the multiverse, I'd be interested to read it.

 

[DennisTate]

Had another look at the OP, and I think the 'AboveAlpha' quotes need explaining in more detail. For example:

"Multiversal Polymorphic Algebraic Equasions to set up the Calculus and several new Calculus symbols had to be developed."​

Multiversal Polymorphic Algebraic theories are nothing to do with the multiverse - they deal with multiple 'type universes' (i.e. everything relating to a type), and the idea of having to develop new calculus symbols seems... far-fetched.

Sounds like BS to me. But hey, if someone can post a clear explanation, of what MPAs have to do with the multiverse, I'd be interested to read it.

I was just quoting him but I did run into an article a few months ago that did go into the actual formula's for part of this.

I will try to remember where that was at.

 

[DennisTate]

I like this article for back up but it is not the one that went into the mathematics.

Time travellers could use parallel dimensions to visit the past, scientists claim

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I like this article for back up but it is not the one that went into the mathematics.

Time travellers could use parallel dimensions to visit the past, scientists claim

I think the fact that even The Sun (a notoriously hyperbolic newspaper) says "The team's theory doesn't completely contradict all existing knowledge, meaning there's a chance that the researchers are right" immediately suggests that this is pretty unlikely... and reading the abstract, there's no mention of time-travellers or visiting the past, and the interaction between universes they propose is a 'subtle repulsion'.

Someone's just invented an attention-grabbing headline.

I notice that article also has a link to, "a different team of researchers made the sensational claim that humans have souls which can live on after death", which turns out to be Hameroff & Penrose's loopy 'quantum souls' extension to their only slightly less loopy 'Orch OR' hypothesis. It gets them some publicity, but it must have been a slow news week.

 

[DennisTate]

I think the fact that even The Sun (a notoriously hyperbolic newspaper) says "The team's theory doesn't completely contradict all existing knowledge, meaning there's a chance that the researchers are right" immediately suggests that this is pretty unlikely... and reading the abstract, there's no mention of time-travellers or visiting the past, and the interaction between universes they propose is a 'subtle repulsion'.

Someone's just invented an attention-grabbing headline.

I notice that article also has a link to, "a different team of researchers made the sensational claim that humans have souls which can live on after death", which turns out to be Hameroff & Penrose's loopy 'quantum souls' extension to their only slightly less loopy 'Orch OR' hypothesis. It gets them some publicity, but it must have been a slow news week.

I happen to like Penrose's theory.

I' ve been reading near death experience accounts since 1990 and they seem to be some of easiest to understand writings on spirituality that are out there. They do make many troubling scriptures in the Jewish and Christian scriptures quite clear.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I happen to like Penrose's theory.

Unfortunately liking it doesn't make it likely to be correct. I thought it was quite interesting when I first heard about it, but when I read the full detail and the papers it was supposedly based on, I found that it didn't hold together at all. Since then, it's gone from speculative quantum 'woo' pseudoscience camouflaged in cell biology, to New Age nonsense; finding they've now allied themselves with Deepak Chopra and his crew, suggests to me that they're aiming to popularise and monetize it. Just my opinion, of course

I' ve been reading near death experience accounts since 1990 and they seem to be some of easiest to understand writings on spirituality that are out there. They do make many troubling scriptures in the Jewish and Christian scriptures quite clear.

It's entirely possible that each has reinforced the other. NDEs often have cultural and religious features accompanying the common elements due to cerebral hypoxia, etc.; and it wouldn't be surprising if scriptural writings contain elements taken from NDEs interpreted as spiritual experiences.

Hermeneutics in general (not just scriptural) arises out trying to address the difficulty of conveying specific meaning through language; the issue being that, as Derrida described (based on Ferdinand de Saussure’s theory of language as a closed system of differences), meaning is inescapably equivocal, as it is constructed through evolving processes of interpretation and reinterpretation that depend on the semantic web of the interpreter - i.e. the cultural and experiential semantic associations built up over time that are unique to each individual (though there will be commonalities through shared interpretations, culture, experience, and word usage - as Wittgenstein observed).

So it should not be surprising that extending your own semantic web with NDE accounts can clarify scriptural understanding for you, particularly if scriptural expression has been influenced by NDEs. But I'd be wary of attributing that understanding as the core, or intended, meaning; there will likely be others who feel they've gained a clarity of understanding of the same texts that differs from yours.

"When we listen to a story, we don't record it word by word but rather we reconstruct it in the language of our own thoughts.That is why people emerge from the same cinema with different stories."
Neuroscientist Mariano Sigman, 'The Secret Life of The Mind', p.219.​

 

[Michael]

Unfortunately liking it doesn't make it likely to be correct. I thought it was quite interesting when I first heard about it, but when I read the full detail and the papers it was supposedly based on, I found that it didn't hold together at all. Since then, it's gone from speculative quantum 'woo' pseudoscience camouflaged in cell biology, to New Age nonsense; finding they've now allied themselves with Deepak Chopra and his crew, suggests to me that they're aiming to popularise and monetize it. Just my opinion, of course

FYI, your same "touchy feely" QM argument applies just as directly to current cosmology theory today. Monetary gain seems to trump empirical physics in many areas of life.

Just sayin....

It's entirely possible that each has reinforced the other. NDEs often have cultural and religious features accompanying the common elements due to cerebral hypoxia, etc.; and it wouldn't be surprising if scriptural writings contain elements taken from NDEs interpreted as spiritual experiences.

And yet even self professed atheists have such experiences and often times the experiences do not jive with their preconceived religious beliefs prior to the NDE. They often also have a very profound effect on the rest of their lives, so clearly the individual themselves believes that the experience was quite 'real' for them.