The Philosophical implications of Multiverse Theory?

[Ophiolite]

Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?


Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

....
Very interesting indeed!

I am of the belief that G-d..... lives in all seven billion humans who walk the earth......
including one billion or more Roman Catholics and....... I have to admit that all seven
billion of us have been given more authority and power to affect how world events turn out
than I used to imagine was possible.

Since two or three Christians being in agreement on something that they ask for has
power..... then over one billion Roman Catholics agreeing that your Pope has great power........

.... actually has considerable validity..... .which is witnessed by an Ecuadorian Charismatic Catholic
or Pentecostal woman named Angelica Zambrano if I remember correctly.

Ms. Zambrano, in an audio message that I heard many years ago stated that she had had
either a near death experience...... or something like it....... and she had been shown many things.... .one of which was Pope John Paul II wrestling with a serpent in what many Catholics might wonder if it was part of Purgatory??????

My theory is that although Pope John Paul II was amazing...... .He assisted President Ronald Reagan to bring down the Iron Curtain....... He travelled and worked tirelessly on many issues......... After he died..... he did the usual Life Review with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.... and he regretted not doing even more!

I believe that his wrestling with a serpent..... means a lot of things... .but a serpent is a symbol of wisdom...... and for all I know this could have been the very same serpent who attempted to attack his great, great, great.... grandmother Eve.... in The Book of Adam and Eve that was preserved into our time period only in Arabic....... because in our zeal...... we Christians had burned every other copy of that book in all other languages.

Anyway..... in a sense that serpent personifies some aspects of wisdom.....
that can manifest as guilt... and by tackling that serpent......
I suspect that Pope John Paul II after his death was wrestling with his desire to have
accomplished even more for humanity............
and.....

I believe that you and I and all seven billion of us are benefiting as Pope John Paul II wrestles with Wisdom in the form of the serpent....... and a new time line is being wrestled into existence.... that I believe is better..... vastly better than any previous time line.........

Do you believe the large print makes your thesis more convincing?
I can help you out there - it doesn't.

 

[DennisTate]

Do you believe the large print makes your thesis more convincing?
I can help you out there - it doesn't.

I bolded the letters because this is the title of another discussion.

Do you believe that maybe, just maybe, former Atheist Howard Storm had a genuine spiritual experience somewhat like II Corinthians 12:2-4?

Thank you for being very honest and terming yourself an Agnostic but I have Agnostic friends who do not rule out the possibility of astonishingly strange psychic phenomena from happening.

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

 

[Ophiolite]

Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?


Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

....
Very interesting indeed!

I am of the belief that G-d..... lives in all seven billion humans who walk the earth......
including one billion or more Roman Catholics and....... I have to admit that all seven
billion of us have been given more authority and power to affect how world events turn out
than I used to imagine was possible.

Since two or three Christians being in agreement on something that they ask for has
power..... then over one billion Roman Catholics agreeing that your Pope has great power........

.... actually has considerable validity..... .which is witnessed by an Ecuadorian Charismatic Catholic
or Pentecostal woman named Angelica Zambrano if I remember correctly.

Ms. Zambrano, in an audio message that I heard many years ago stated that she had had
either a near death experience...... or something like it....... and she had been shown many things.... .one of which was Pope John Paul II wrestling with a serpent in what many Catholics might wonder if it was part of Purgatory??????

My theory is that although Pope John Paul II was amazing...... .He assisted President Ronald Reagan to bring down the Iron Curtain....... He travelled and worked tirelessly on many issues......... After he died..... he did the usual Life Review with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.... and he regretted not doing even more!

I believe that his wrestling with a serpent..... means a lot of things... .but a serpent is a symbol of wisdom...... and for all I know this could have been the very same serpent who attempted to attack his great, great, great.... grandmother Eve.... in The Book of Adam and Eve that was preserved into our time period only in Arabic....... because in our zeal...... we Christians had burned every other copy of that book in all other languages.

Anyway..... in a sense that serpent personifies some aspects of wisdom.....
that can manifest as guilt... and by tackling that serpent......
I suspect that Pope John Paul II after his death was wrestling with his desire to have
accomplished even more for humanity............
and.....

I believe that you and I and all seven billion of us are benefiting as Pope John Paul II wrestles with Wisdom in the form of the serpent....... and a new time line is being wrestled into existence.... that I believe is better..... vastly better than any previous time line.........

On behalf of those with impaired vision, thank you.

 

[DennisTate]

On behalf of those with impaired vision, thank you.

I recently broke down and got glasses myself..... I am 58 and I suppose that this could be a little safer for other drivers on the highways of Nova Scotia, Canada?!

 

[Ophiolite]

I bolded the letters because this is the title of another discussion.

Do you believe that maybe, just maybe, former Atheist Howard Storm had a genuine spiritual experience somewhat like II Corinthians 12:2-4?

Thank you for being very honest and terming yourself an Agnostic but I have Agnostic friends who do not rule out the possibility of astonishingly strange psychic phenomena from happening.

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

I first studied Near Death Experiences more than five decades ago. Initally, I was strongly inclined to find them credible. When I broadened my reading to include both sides of the argument that inclination rapidly evaporated.

Let me state my case very clearly. I doubt you can understand the depth of my wish that NDEs are real. It would be marvellous on so many levels. I still dip into new accounts from time to time in the hope that there may be something more substantial than wishful thinking and self delusion. Regretably, so far - nothing. But I retain an open mind.

In terms of psychic phenomena in general, the same applies. Yes, I've seen ghosts on two occassions, I've have induced clairvoyant dreams and managed one instance of telekinesis. Yet none of these (except the telekinesis) are more readily explained with prosaic, natural explanations.

I don't merit any thanks for honesty. I am scrupulously honest online, since there is no reason to lie. Just don't trust me in a face to face encounter. And I definitely don't deserve the "very" honest. I am agnostic in terms of Gods. I am an atheist in terms of the Abrahamic god. Unfortunately there is no category on offer that covers that. (Perhaps the staff should consider adding it. There could be a large uptake.)

 

[DennisTate]

I first studied Near Death Experiences more than five decades ago. Initally, I was strongly inclined to find them credible. When I broadened my reading to include both sides of the argument that inclination rapidly evaporated.

Let me state my case very clearly. I doubt you can understand the depth of my wish that NDEs are real. It would be marvellous on so many levels. I still dip into new accounts from time to time in the hope that there may be something more substantial than wishful thinking and self delusion. Regretably, so far - nothing. But I retain an open mind.

In terms of psychic phenomena in general, the same applies. Yes, I've seen ghosts on two occassions, I've have induced clairvoyant dreams and managed one instance of telekinesis. Yet none of these (except the telekinesis) are more readily explained with prosaic, natural explanations.

I don't merit any thanks for honesty. I am scrupulously honest online, since there is no reason to lie. Just don't trust me in a face to face encounter. And I definitely don't deserve the "very" honest. I am agnostic in terms of Gods. I am an atheist in terms of the Abrahamic god. Unfortunately there is no category on offer that covers that. (Perhaps the staff should consider adding it. There could be a large uptake.)

I am seriously impressed. I did not find NDE accounts until I read an article on them in Psychology Today around 1989 or 1990.

I admit that I could be wrong but I feel that there has got to be some connection between NDE accounts with some of the high school level English language explanations of String Theory that I have ran into.

"It was not until 1920 that the idea of linking electromagnetism and
gravity resurfaced. At that time a new theory of gravitation had been proposed by Albert Einstein (1879-1955), called the general theory of relativity. It was a replacement of Newton's theory, which had stood unchallenged since 1687. Inspired by Einstein's work, a young German mathematician named Theodore Kaluza was seized by a curious idea. The theory of relativity links space an time together to form a four-dimensional space-time continuum. What would happen, mused Kaluza, if general relativity were formulated in five rather than four dimensions? This is what Kaluza did, and to everyone's astonishment it was discovered that five-dimensional gravity obeys the same laws as
four-dimensional gravity as well as Maxwell's laws for the electromagnetic field. In other words, gravitation and electromagnetism are automatically unified in five dimensions, where electromagnetism is merely a component of gravity!"

The only drawback of the theory concerns the extra dimension. Why
don't we see it? An ingenious answer was provided by Oskar Klein. A
hosepipe viewed from afar looks like a wiggly line, i.e. one- dimensional.
However, on closer inspection it can be seen as a narrow tube. It is, in fact,
two-dimensional, and what was taken to be a point on the line is actually a
little circle going around the tube. In the same way, reasoned Klein, what we normally regard as a point in three dimensional space could in reality be a little circle going around a fourth space dimension. Thus Kaluza's extra
dimension might well exist, but be impossible to detect because it is closed
(circular) and rolled up to a very small circumference. In spite of
these bizarre overtones, it seems probable that in future a "theory of everything" will make use of the idea of unseen higher dimensions."
....

"Although nature manifests four distinct forces, physicists believe that
each may be part of a smaller number of more primitive forces. At high energy, the electromagnetic and weak forces appear to merge into a single "electroweak" force. Some "grand unified theories" suggest that a further amalgamation takes place between the electroweak and strong forces at as yet unattained energies. The most ambitious unification schemes envisage an amalgamation of all four forces into a single "superforce" at ultra-high levels of energy."...

"The real burden in the next three centuries will not be the development of fancy mathematics, but the experimental testing of these ambitious theories. All current thinking about total unification assumes that the effects of linking all the forces and particles together will only become manifest at energies that are some trillion times greater than those currently attainable in particle accelerators. Probably we shall never reach such energies directly" ( A Theory of Everything" Volume 21 of "The World of Science)

Dr. George Ritchie reports being shown four higher invisible dimensions of space - time and he adds the fascinating detail...... that he and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus are invisible...... to all occupants of all invisible dimensions.... until the highest one. This sure seems to fit with String Theory to my thinking. (For the record I have seen some of the mathematics for String Theory and I understood zero of it............... but Stephen Hawking Ph. D. and others have done a great job of explaining some of the explanations for these theories for red necks from the back woods like myself who at least will research the basic ideas on this.)

 

[DennisTate]

I highly doubt that multiverse theory would have much legitimate impact on philosophy, were there more evidence for it and it became more widely accepted.

It can certainly assist me in a rather challenging ministry that I wish to begin:

Christian outreach to Satanists.....

 

[DogmaHunter]

Actually I'd say that's a relatively naive viewpoint. The term "Let there be light", and the philosophy of "creation ex nihilo" are both highly instrumental IMO to the popularity of "big bang" theory.

No, they aren't.

Having said that... that's not even philosphy. That's just religion. And even just one very specific religion.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... I feel that there has got to be some connection between NDE accounts with some of the high school level English language explanations of String Theory that I have ran into.

Feelings & intuitions tend to be unreliable outside of your field of expertise (Critical Thinking 101).

Dr. George Ritchie reports being shown four higher invisible dimensions of space - time and he adds the fascinating detail...... that he and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus are invisible...... to all occupants of all invisible dimensions.... until the highest one. This sure seems to fit with String Theory to my thinking.

If you read the text you quoted on String Theory, you'll see Klein himself suggests an extra dimension would be "impossible to detect because it is closed (circular) and rolled up to a very small circumference" (actually, orders of magnitude smaller than the smallest sub-atomic particle). Also, these are spatial dimensions, orthogonal to the three we're familiar with, not some kind of comic-book or Twilight Zone 'alternate dimension' universes.

So, no. Whatever Ritchie dreamed up (and I suspect 'dreamed' is the correct adjective), it had nothing to do with the extra dimensions of String Theory.

 

[DennisTate]

Feelings & intuitions tend to be unreliable outside of your field of expertise (Critical Thinking 101).


If you read the text you quoted on String Theory, you'll see Klein himself suggests an extra dimension would be "impossible to detect because it is closed (circular) and rolled up to a very small circumference" (actually, orders of magnitude smaller than the smallest sub-atomic particle). Also, these are spatial dimensions, orthogonal to the three we're familiar with, not some kind of comic-book or Twilight Zone 'alternate dimension' universes.

So, no. Whatever Ritchie dreamed up (and I suspect 'dreamed' is the correct adjective), it had nothing to do with the extra dimensions of String Theory.

Good point .. .but because I was highly motivated to study near death experience accounts rather obsessively since 1990, (they got me disfellowshipped from two Christian churches that taught Soul Sleep), I have became something of an unofficial expert on the topic.

I did not want to get kicked out of my old church over questions that I had not researched rather extensively.

 

[DennisTate]

No, they aren't.

Having said that... that's not even philosphy. That's just religion. And even just one very specific religion.

Are you certain?

I have read Stephen Hawking's Universe and chapter 13, entitled The Anthropic Principle, has a section on an Atheistic version of the Cyclic Model of the Universe that sure sounds a lot like what near death experiencer and former Atheist Mellen Benedict reported being shown during his brush with death.

near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05

I was in pre creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time / the First Word/the First vibration. I was in the Eye of Creation. I felt as if I was touching the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply I was at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness. When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That’s a mind-expanding thought, isn’t it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event that created the Universe. I saw during my life after death experience that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by super computers using fractal geometry equations.

The ancients knew of this. They said God had periodically created new Universes by breathing out, and recreated other Universes by breathing in. These epochs were called Yugas. Modern science called this the Big Bang. I was in absolute, pure consciousness. I could see or perceive all the Big Bangs or Yugas creating and recreating themselves. Instantly I entered into them all simultaneously. I saw that each and every little piece of creation has the power to create. It is very difficult to try to explain this. I am still speechless about this.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Good point .. .but because I was highly motivated to study near death experience accounts rather obsessively since 1990, (they got me disfellowshipped from two Christian churches that taught Soul Sleep), I have became something of an unofficial expert on the topic.

Yeah, I've spent probably too much time on that stuff too; people really want to believe.

I did not want to get kicked out of my old church over questions that I had not researched rather extensively.

That doesn't sound very Christian...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Are you certain?

I have read Stephen Hawking's Universe and chapter 13, entitled The Anthropic Principle, has a section on an Atheistic version of the Cyclic Model of the Universe that sure sounds a lot like what near death experiencer and former Atheist Mellen Benedict reported being shown during his brush with death.

near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05

Sounds like a trip, or disruption to the brain area concerned with self-boundaries and perception - and most people with any interest in the universe (or religious beliefs) will have heard ideas of cyclic universes. I used to hear a lot of 'far out' trip stories of this kind.

 

[DennisTate]

Yeah, I've spent probably too much time on that stuff too; people really want to believe.

That doesn't sound very Christian...

I have to admit that I do have some anger issues......
that I am still working on but...................
.......... I might still be backsliding from time to time.........?

(Some possible evidence for this can be found in post #207)?!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I have to admit that I do have some anger issues......
that I am still working on but...................
.......... I might still be backsliding from time to time.........?

(Some possible evidence for this can be found in post #207)?!

If their response to people having 'issues' is to kick them out, it's no surprise their numbers are in decline.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Are you certain?

Yes. The "let there be light" is kind of a give way, being a direct quote from the religious scripture itself.......

I have read Stephen Hawking's Universe and chapter 13, entitled The Anthropic Principle, has a section on an Atheistic version of the Cyclic Model of the Universe that sure sounds a lot like what near death experiencer and former Atheist Mellen Benedict reported being shown during his brush with death.

near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05

I had pie for breakfast.

That was an equally relevant statement.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

No, I feel like it is an important contribution to this idea.

No "philosophical thought" will have any effect on actual science.
Supported science will always trump philosophy.

Back in the day, philosophers made absolute statements like "an object can't be in two places at once". Because that wasn't "logical".

And then came quantum mechanics and lo and behold: particles can be in two places at once. You measure it in place X, but it shows up in place Y. Philosophers were disgusted by the idea. But guess what? Reality doesn't have to conform to the "common sense" of "thinkers".

It doesn't matter one bit what philosophers believe or think or like.

Reality is what it is. Who cares what philosophers think or believe?

Evidence and science trump philosophers every day of the week.

I feel it is an important thing to understand.
Philosophy sure has its place in human thought and reasoning... But the natural science are no longer part of it.

This is why people like Stephen Hawking state that philosophy (in that sense) is dead. And that is also what they mean by it.

This is funny

No, I feel like it is an important contribution to this idea.

No "philosophical thought" will have any effect on actual science.
Supported science will always trump philosophy.

Back in the day, philosophers made absolute statements like "an object can't be in two places at once". Because that wasn't "logical".

And then came quantum mechanics and lo and behold: particles can be in two places at once. You measure it in place X, but it shows up in place Y. Philosophers were disgusted by the idea. But guess what? Reality doesn't have to conform to the "common sense" of "thinkers".

It doesn't matter one bit what philosophers believe or think or like.

Reality is what it is. Who cares what philosophers think or believe?

Evidence and science trump philosophers every day of the week.

I feel it is an important thing to understand.
Philosophy sure has its place in human thought and reasoning... But the natural science are no longer part of it.

This is why people like Stephen Hawking state that philosophy (in that sense) is dead. And that is also what they mean by it.

This is why people like hawking are laughed at. It was hysterical when hawking was seriously trying to explain something coming out of nothing. The entire audience was just laughing at him. And, yet, he couldn't understand why.

You can't separate science from logic and logic is itself philosophy. Science isn't just collecting data. Scientists collect data for a reason. When scientists hypothesize based on collected data, they are using logic (in theory at least). I understand logic is a foreign concept to hawking and other evolutionists and big bangers who think that such a big bang can spontaneously happen without reason. But, real scientists value logic. Eliminating logic eliminates real science.

 

[Michael]

No, they aren't.

Of course they are. They whole idea of a 'big bang' was put forth by a Catholic Priest and it was given the Pope's seal of approval. That certainly made it philosophically easier for Christians to embrace the idea.

Having said that... that's not even philosphy. That's just religion. And even just one very specific religion.

Ya, the dominant one of the time in the west. Considering the metaphysical nature of the big bang theory, it's akin to any 'religion' as well. It's certainly a faith based belief system without a shred of empirical laboratory evidence to support it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

You can't separate science from logic and logic is itself philosophy.

Logic is actually empirical.
Before Einstein, it wasn't considered "logical" that time is relative instead of absolute.
Before quantum mechanics, it wasn't considered "logical" that particles can show up in two places at ones.

The point is that we don't know what is "logical" in advance.
Logic is derived from reality, not imposed on it.

Certain philosophers don't seem to be aware of that.

Science isn't just collecting data. Scientists collect data for a reason. When scientists hypothesize based on collected data, they are using logic (in theory at least). I understand logic is a foreign concept to hawking and other evolutionists and big bangers who think that such a big bang can spontaneously happen without reason. But, real scientists value logic.

Ow goody.... another biology denier who likes to talk about "real scientists".
Uhu.

Eliminating logic eliminates real science.

Nobody is suggesting to "eliminate logic".

 

[DogmaHunter]

Of course they are.

Except that they are not.

They whole idea of a 'big bang' was put forth by a Catholic Priest

And he formulated his idea based on data observations from the real world, not by reading his bible. Because as you so conveniently left out of that statement, the dude was also a cosmologist at the university of Leuven, Belgium.

and it was given the Pope's seal of approval

And when the pope tried to use the big bang idea to make a religious point about creation, George LeMaitre, that catholic priest that came up with it, wrote him a letter asking him to please stop drawing connections between religion and science and that it was generally a bad idea to try and validate the bible through his scientific work.

That certainly made it philosophically easier for Christians to embrace the idea.

Perhaps. But for the wrong reasons.
"it is compatible with what I already believe" is not a good reason.

Ya, the dominant one of the time in the west. Considering the metaphysical nature of the big bang theory, it's akin to any 'religion' as well. It's certainly a faith based belief system without a shred of empirical laboratory evidence to support it.

It is not. As that "catholic priest" would also tell you.