Can a Christian defend himself OR others? (Defensive killing)

[yeshuaslavejeff]

“If there be anything clear in scripture, it does seem to me that it is for a Christian to have nothing to do with carnal weapons.

This is like a paraphrase of JESUS HIMSELF !

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Therefore, like anyone else who reads correctly, I understand that Jesus is saying that the reason for instruction to get the sword is that Jesus will be seen as a transgressor.

Even without a sword, so no, that is disqualified.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Most of the healings were done on the Sabbath along with working on the Sabbath.

Double check this.
I believe Jesus healed on any day, so many times along with everything else He did, that there were not enough books to print it!

Also, Jesus never, not even once, broke TORAH.

Only oral torah .... i.e. tradition that was opposed to YHWH, like today can be seen very often.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Paul's ideas thoroughly contradicted the law of Moses.

Sorry, no. Not at all.
Same as Y'SHUA, did not contradict Moses at all.
Like Y'SHUA says: If you listened to Moses, you would listen to Me(Jesus), because Moses spoke of Me(Jesus).

And Y'SHUA trained Paul, perfectly, as YHWH directed Him to.

 

[_-iconoclast-_]

I have spent pages and pages and pages providing my take on this very text. If you are interested in my basic position, please see post number 4.

As to your question about "allowing someone to murder me", I would say that is not easy to answer. I certainly believe Jesus would be opposed to people carrying weapons around. But I would not go so far as to suggest we should not resist physically if our life is under threat.

But we need to deal with one thing at a time. The Luke 22 text does not, repeat does not, support using a weapon in self-defence. This despite the frankly dishonest behaviours in this thread who repeatedly evade responsible, truthful dialog about this controversial text.

Hello and thank you for your response.

I read your post 4 and do not disagree with what you said.

I have spent pages and pages and pages providing my take on this very text. If you are interested in my basic position, please see post number 4.

As to your question about "allowing someone to murder me", I would say that is not easy to answer. I certainly believe Jesus would be opposed to people carrying weapons around. But I would not go so far as to suggest we should not resist physically if our life is under threat.

But we need to deal with one thing at a time. The Luke 22 text does not, repeat does not, support using a weapon in self-defence. This despite the frankly dishonest behaviours in this thread who repeatedly evade responsible, truthful dialog about this controversial text.

Hello and thank you for your reply.

I read post 4. I think Matthew Henry's commentry said it well.

'their friends would be kind to them as they had been. Therefore, he that has a purse, let him take it, for he may need it. They must now expect that their enemies would be more fierce than they had been, and they would need weapons. At the time the apostles understood Christ to mean real weapons, but he spake only of the weapons of the spiritual warfare. The sword of the Spirit is the sword with which the disciples of Christ must furnish themselves.'

We are not to avenge, we are not raise our hands in anger. We are to love our enemies amd do good to those who persecute us. There is no teaching which says we are to allow someone to murder us.

Psalm 82:4 “Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

 

[Brian.Dierks]

This is something I've wrestled with my wife about. I was formerly in the marine corps and letting go of pride and the idea of needing to defend myself. I understand from scripture that since the Apostles of Christ were persecuted (martyred, stoned, other various attacks) There is 0 scriptural evidence they defended themselves. Even Jesus when the pharisees attempted to stone him simply ran away from them. Its a hard teaching but the truth is we are not to cause harm to others or cause others to stumble, including our enemies. Let The Lord our God minister his justice, he calls on us to minister mercy. If my wife and son was getting attacked, I would stop the attacker and call my wife to leave immediately but once gone would simply not resist. I would satisfy my job as a husband to protect my family and lay down my life for them for the sake of Christ. If I alone were being attacked. I would simply not resist or run away, but not harm them in any fashion. Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called children of God.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Is it right for a Christian to defend himself OR others if it will result in the attacker/threats death?...

How would you act? Would you let someone kill you or a loved one?

Exodus 22:2-3King James Version (KJV)
2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.

3 If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This is something I've wrestled with my wife about. I was formerly in the marine corps and letting go of pride and the idea of needing to defend myself. I understand from scripture that since the Apostles of Christ were persecuted (martyred, stoned, other various attacks) There is 0 scriptural evidence they defended themselves. Even Jesus when the pharisees attempted to stone him simply ran away from them. Its a hard teaching but the truth is we are not to cause harm to others or cause others to stumble, including our enemies. Let The Lord our God minister his justice, he calls on us to minister mercy. If my wife and son was getting attacked, I would stop the attacker and call my wife to leave immediately but once gone would simply not resist. I would satisfy my job as a husband to protect my family and lay down my life for them for the sake of Christ. If I alone were being attacked. I would simply not resist or run away, but not harm them in any fashion. Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called children of God.

Jesus used violence in the Temple itself to kick out the money changers.
Jesus is the God of the OT too. One need only read the OT and Last Book of the Bible to know that Jesus authorized violence.

Luke 11:21
When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Is it right for a Christian to defend himself OR others if it will result in the attacker/threats death?

I have spoken to multiple people about this question. As the end continues to draw closer things will get worse and worse. There will be warfare, earthquakes, famine, and disease. Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, disobedient to parents, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.

I do not fear these times, I accept it will happen. My question is how should one who loves God act during these times in a way that is holy and not part of the world or falling short of God's standard.. If someone threatens my life and wishes to commit murder, can I defend my body if it means the attacker dies in the process?

All of Jesus' disciples besides Judas Iscariot (who committed suicide) where killed/murdered and I don't believe any defended themselves.
Scripure says something along the lines of "Those who lose their lives will find it, those who keep their lives will lose it" does this mean by defending yourself you will be punished?
Scripure also says something along the lines of "there is no greater love than laying down your life for another" does this mean you could risk your life defending another Person?

I understand the concept of ending someone's life short when there is a possibility of them having asked for repentance/salvation later on, IF they hadn't been killed.. But still, I wonder how I would act in that situation.

How would you act? Would you let someone kill you or a loved one?

I guess you don't lock your doors at night?

 

[DavidaAC]

Is it right for a Christian to defend himself OR others if it will result in the attacker/threats death?

I have spoken to multiple people about this question. As the end continues to draw closer things will get worse and worse. There will be warfare, earthquakes, famine, and disease. Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, disobedient to parents, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.

I do not fear these times, I accept it will happen. My question is how should one who loves God act during these times in a way that is holy and not part of the world or falling short of God's standard.. If someone threatens my life and wishes to commit murder, can I defend my body if it means the attacker dies in the process?

All of Jesus' disciples besides Judas Iscariot (who committed suicide) where killed/murdered and I don't believe any defended themselves.
Scripure says something along the lines of "Those who lose their lives will find it, those who keep their lives will lose it" does this mean by defending yourself you will be punished?
Scripure also says something along the lines of "there is no greater love than laying down your life for another" does this mean you could risk your life defending another Person?

I understand the concept of ending someone's life short when there is a possibility of them having asked for repentance/salvation later on, IF they hadn't been killed.. But still, I wonder how I would act in that situation.

How would you act? Would you let someone kill you or a loved one?

I don't believe it is right for Christians to fight back. How is that loving our enemies? I have thought about this question so many times, and the conclusion that I came to is that Christians aren't supposed to fight back. The New Testament just seems to be completely against it. Plus, if I carried weapons with me then to me that would show that I lack faith in God. If it's God's will that I or someone else should die, then I won't interfere. But if it's not His will, then He won't let it happen.

 

[-57]

The text reflects the author's misunderstanding of what Jews meant by a son of God.

That statement alone disqualifies your opinion. The author got it right.

 

[dentonz]

One would think so, but we have an exception in Luke 22, a passage repeatedly, and erroneously, used to defend the right to armed self-defence:

And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his [g]coat and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘And He was numbered with transgressors’; for that which refers to Me has its [h]fulfillment.”

Although many here in this thread dishonestly treat verse 37 as if it does not exist, this is an example of a sword being acquired not for self-defence but rather as a ploy to make Jesus appear to be a transgressor. And this makes sense - if Jesus' followers are armed, it certainly casts Jesus in the light of being a "transgressor" in the sense of someone who is associated with a band of armed thugs.

Speaking of self defense or defense of others, which is more righteous; to allow a helpless person to be killed, or defend that person's life by stopping the threat?

 

[SteveIndy]

Speaking of self defense or defense of others, which is more righteous; to allow a helpless person to be killed, or defend that person's life by stopping the threat?

The question should be to obey or not to obey the commands of Jesus. We do not have either words or deeds commanding violence while defending the weak. The pictures and examples we are given is of lambs and doves and anything to the contrary are exemplified as wolves and snakes. It is necessary to examine ourselves to determine of which spirit we belong.

 

[dentonz]

This is something I've wrestled with my wife about. I was formerly in the marine corps and letting go of pride and the idea of needing to defend myself. I understand from scripture that since the Apostles of Christ were persecuted (martyred, stoned, other various attacks) There is 0 scriptural evidence they defended themselves. Even Jesus when the pharisees attempted to stone him simply ran away from them. Its a hard teaching but the truth is we are not to cause harm to others or cause others to stumble, including our enemies. Let The Lord our God minister his justice, he calls on us to minister mercy. If my wife and son was getting attacked, I would stop the attacker and call my wife to leave immediately but once gone would simply not resist. I would satisfy my job as a husband to protect my family and lay down my life for them for the sake of Christ. If I alone were being attacked. I would simply not resist or run away, but not harm them in any fashion. Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called children of God.

So to allow an evil person to steal you away from your wife and child is Christ-like? I would die for my wife and children if all else fails, but it is more right that I live for them.

 

[dentonz]

The question should be to obey or not to obey the commands of Jesus. We do not have either words or deeds commanding violence while defending the weak. The pictures and examples we are given is of lambs and doves and anything to the contrary are exemplified as wolves and snakes. It is necessary to examine ourselves to determine of which spirit we belong.

And he is exemplified as a shepherd who's job is to protect the sheep from the wolves and snakes. Maybe even raise an animal to live among them to help protect them, Great Pyrenees sheepdog for example. Speaking of lambs, have you ever tried to mess with a lamb when his daddy was around. I wonder why God gave them great horns?

 

[SteveIndy]

And he is exemplified as a shepherd who's job is to protect the sheep from the wolves and snakes. Maybe even raise an animal to live among them to help protect them, Great Pyrenees sheepdog for example. Speaking of lambs, have you ever tried to mess with a lamb when his daddy was around. I wonder why God gave them great horns?

The spirit of Christ is meekness: this is not a deep subject, why do so called followers of the Lamb have such a hard time understanding this. Yes, was a shepherd and He says follow Me, where is the ambiguity?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I don't believe it is right for Christians to fight back. How is that loving our enemies? I have thought about this question so many times, and the conclusion that I came to is that Christians aren't supposed to fight back. The New Testament just seems to be completely against it. Plus, if I carried weapons with me then to me that would show that I lack faith in God. If it's God's will that I or someone else should die, then I won't interfere. But if it's not His will, then He won't let it happen.

Maybe you should read the book of Job.

Also, do research on the permissive will of God.

"

• Deborah: Facing Down ‘900 Chariots of Iron’

In answering the call, Deborah became a singular biblical figure: a female military leader. She recruited a man, the general Barak, to stand by her side, telling him God wanted the armies of Israel to attack the Canaanites who were persecuting the highland tribes. Barak was reluctant, and he insisted that Deborah go with him to the battle. Her answer was assertive and prophetic: "I will surely go with you; nevertheless, the road on which you are going will not lead to your glory, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman."

So it was an unlikely commander who led the Army to a decisive battle with the Canaanites. Faced with "900 chariots of iron," the height of military technology at the time, Deborah's army of 10,000 Israelites rushed down from the hills, clashing with the Canaanite general Sisera near the Kishon River. The "Song of Deborah," one of the oldest in the Bible, says the stars strayed from their courses and the river washed Sisera's armies away in a massive flood. The battle was a total victory. "All the Army of Sisera fell by the sword; no one was left."

Defeated, Sisera fled, taking refuge in an ally's tent. Expecting refuge from the army chasing him, the Canaanite general was greeted by a woman named Jael. Sisera demanded shelter and water. Instead, Jael gave him a bowl of milk—and a tent peg through the skull.


The violence of Deborah's story is a radical departure from standard biblical themes, which rarely place women in roles as warriors and generals. "Every other instance we have of women acting in a military context is of a woman acting as an assassin, using sexual attraction to lure male war leaders to their deaths," says Susan Ackerman, a religion and women's and gender studies professor at Dartmouth College. "Deborah, in terms of the portrayal of her taking the lead as a military commander, is unique."


Deborah's story would stand out even without her unusual role as a military leader. It's essentially told twice: first in a sort of prose summary in Judges 4 and then in a poem or song in Judges 5. The song may be one of the Bible's oldest texts, "probably composed not long after the original events, possibly by Deborah herself," writes University of Chicago Divinity School Prof. Tikva Frymer-Kensky in Women of Scripture. The song's archaic language also sets it apart. Ackerman says the song's Hebrew is as distinct from the Hebrew in the rest of the Bible as the English of Beowulf is from the modern tongue.
"
https://www.usnews.com/news/religio...y-leader-deborah-is-a-rare-biblical-character

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The spirit of Christ is meekness: this is not a deep subject, why do so called followers of the Lamb have such a hard time understanding this. Yes, was a shepherd and He says follow Me, where is the ambiguity?

John 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.


Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.


Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The question should be to obey or not to obey the commands of Jesus. We do not have either words or deeds commanding violence while defending the weak. The pictures and examples we are given is of lambs and doves and anything to the contrary are exemplified as wolves and snakes. It is necessary to examine ourselves to determine of which spirit we belong.

Jesus is the same God in the OT. You have an unbalanced view of God.

Psalm 91

 

[DavidaAC]

Maybe you should read the book of Job.

Also, do research on the permissive will of God.

"

• Deborah: Facing Down ‘900 Chariots of Iron’

In answering the call, Deborah became a singular biblical figure: a female military leader. She recruited a man, the general Barak, to stand by her side, telling him God wanted the armies of Israel to attack the Canaanites who were persecuting the highland tribes. Barak was reluctant, and he insisted that Deborah go with him to the battle. Her answer was assertive and prophetic: "I will surely go with you; nevertheless, the road on which you are going will not lead to your glory, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman."

So it was an unlikely commander who led the Army to a decisive battle with the Canaanites. Faced with "900 chariots of iron," the height of military technology at the time, Deborah's army of 10,000 Israelites rushed down from the hills, clashing with the Canaanite general Sisera near the Kishon River. The "Song of Deborah," one of the oldest in the Bible, says the stars strayed from their courses and the river washed Sisera's armies away in a massive flood. The battle was a total victory. "All the Army of Sisera fell by the sword; no one was left."

Defeated, Sisera fled, taking refuge in an ally's tent. Expecting refuge from the army chasing him, the Canaanite general was greeted by a woman named Jael. Sisera demanded shelter and water. Instead, Jael gave him a bowl of milk—and a tent peg through the skull.


The violence of Deborah's story is a radical departure from standard biblical themes, which rarely place women in roles as warriors and generals. "Every other instance we have of women acting in a military context is of a woman acting as an assassin, using sexual attraction to lure male war leaders to their deaths," says Susan Ackerman, a religion and women's and gender studies professor at Dartmouth College. "Deborah, in terms of the portrayal of her taking the lead as a military commander, is unique."


Deborah's story would stand out even without her unusual role as a military leader. It's essentially told twice: first in a sort of prose summary in Judges 4 and then in a poem or song in Judges 5. The song may be one of the Bible's oldest texts, "probably composed not long after the original events, possibly by Deborah herself," writes University of Chicago Divinity School Prof. Tikva Frymer-Kensky in Women of Scripture. The song's archaic language also sets it apart. Ackerman says the song's Hebrew is as distinct from the Hebrew in the rest of the Bible as the English of Beowulf is from the modern tongue.
"
https://www.usnews.com/news/religio...y-leader-deborah-is-a-rare-biblical-character

The book of Job is in the Old Testament though. I'm tired so I won't go into details right now, but some things changed in the New Testament so I don't believe it's alright to kill people for any reason anymore. God Himself didn't change of course, I know that, but unless you can give me a verse in the New Testament that clearly says it is okay to defend ourselves (and the verse wasn't taken out of context), I'm not going to be able to believe it.