Can a Christian defend himself OR others? (Defensive killing)

[Code Phox]

Is it right for a Christian to defend himself OR others if it will result in the attacker/threats death?

I have spoken to multiple people about this question. As the end continues to draw closer things will get worse and worse. There will be warfare, earthquakes, famine, and disease. Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, disobedient to parents, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.

I do not fear these times, I accept it will happen. My question is how should one who loves God act during these times in a way that is holy and not part of the world or falling short of God's standard.. If someone threatens my life and wishes to commit murder, can I defend my body if it means the attacker dies in the process?

All of Jesus' disciples besides Judas Iscariot (who committed suicide) where killed/murdered and I don't believe any defended themselves.
Scripure says something along the lines of "Those who lose their lives will find it, those who keep their lives will lose it" does this mean by defending yourself you will be punished?
Scripure also says something along the lines of "there is no greater love than laying down your life for another" does this mean you could risk your life defending another Person?

I understand the concept of ending someone's life short when there is a possibility of them having asked for repentance/salvation later on, IF they hadn't been killed.. But still, I wonder how I would act in that situation.

How would you act? Would you let someone kill you or a loved one?

 

[-57]

Is it right for a Christian to defend himself OR others if it will result in the attacker/threats death?

I have spoken to multiple people about this question. As the end continues to draw closer things will get worse and worse. There will be warfare, earthquakes, famine, and disease. Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, disobedient to parents, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.

I do not fear these times, I accept it will happen. My question is how should one who loves God act during these times in a way that is holy and not part of the world or falling short of God's standard.. If someone threatens my life and wishes to commit murder, can I defend my body if it means the attacker dies in the process?

All of Jesus' disciples besides Judas Iscariot (who committed suicide) where killed/murdered and I don't believe any defended themselves.
Scripure says something along the lines of "Those who lose their lives will find it, those who keep their lives will lose it" does this mean by defending yourself you will be punished?
Scripure also says something along the lines of "there is no greater love than laying down your life for another" does this mean you could risk your life defending another Person?

I understand the concept of ending someone's life short when there is a possibility of them having asked for repentance/salvation later on, IF they hadn't been killed.. But still, I wonder how I would act in that situation.

How would you act? Would you let someone kill you or a loved one?

Why do you think Jesus said the following?
Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

 

[PloverWing]

Is it right for a Christian to defend himself OR others if it will result in the attacker/threats death?

I have wrestled with this question my whole adult life. On the one hand, if I am truly following the teachings of Jesus, I would not use violence in self defense (unless there's a convoluted way to rationalize the violence as being consistent with loving my enemy as myself). On the other hand, there are situations in which the only way I can see to stop a violent act is with violent force against the attacker. I have come to agree, with reluctance, that there are rare cases in which violent self defense is the best option. I believe that I am stepping away from Jesus' ideal teachings in taking this option, but I do not currently see a better path.

As you probably already know, Christians are divided on this question. Quakers and some other Anabaptists traditionally reject all violent self-defense; Just War theorists do allow violence, in limited circumstances.

If I were in a situation of opting for violence in defense of self or others, I would strive to use the least violence possible to resolve the situation.

 

[expos4ever]

Why do you think Jesus said the following?
Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

This keeps being used as an argument for self-defence, but I think it does not work. Please excuse the length of what follows but I want to be thorough.

The following text, from Luke 22, is often used to support the right to bear arms:

And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." 38They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

Obviously a “superficial” reading suggests that Jesus is advocating the “right” to carry a weapon. However, the fact that such a reading is deeply at odds with other things Jesus teaches should be a tip-off that things are not as they appear. And indeed, such is the case here. When this text is understood in broader context, we realize that Jesus is not making any kind of a case for the right to bear arms (swords or otherwise).

In order to arrive at the correct interpretation, we really need to step back and ask ourselves what Jesus’ larger purpose was in this dialogue. Note the connective “for” at the beginning of verse 37. It suggests that the material which follows is an explanation or amplification on the point just made – that the followers of Jesus are to sell their coats and buy a sword. So what is Jesus’ larger purpose?

It is that He been seen as a transgressor. Jesus is intentionally orchestrating things so that the Jewish authorities will have plausible grounds for arresting Him. Of course, appearing as part of an armed band would be precisely the ideal scenario to ensure Jesus’ arrest. Remember the “for” at the beginning of verse 37. If we are to be careful students of what Jesus is saying, we need to take seriously what Jesus says in verses 37 and 38 as qualifying and explaining his statement about buying a sword. We cannot simply gloss the text and conclude “Look, Jesus is making some kind of general statement about the right to self-defence with weapons”.

In fact, this very specific focus on the intent to be seen as a transgressor is powerfully sustained by Jesus’ statement that there is prophecy that He (Jesus) must be seen as a transgressor.

Remember the incident in the temple with Jesus overthrowing the tables of the moneychangers. This is not, as many people think, merely a repudiation of the sin of materialism. It is also a shrewd provocation on the part of Jesus. By creating a ruckus in the temple, He is forcing the hand of the Jewish leaders – they cannot allow such behaviour, Jesus must be arrested soon.

This is why, in the next verse, when the disciples say they have two swords, Jesus says “It is enough.” Obviously, if Jesus ever intended for the disciples to use the swords, two swords would not be nearly enough in any kind of armed action. But it’s enough to fulfill the prophecy by making Jesus appear to be participating in a violent revolutionary movement of some kind.

Unlike the “Jesus is supporting the right to bear arms” interpretation, note how the above interpretation makes sense of the entire account. If Jesus was really making some general statement about a “right to bear arms”, how exactly does that contribute to His being numbered with transgressors? And how does that make sense of the limit of two swords? Such a “right to bear arms” interpretation makes sense of neither. So it is almost certainly an incorrect interpretation of Jesus’ statement about buying a couple of swords.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Is it right for a Christian to defend himself OR others if it will result in the attacker/threats death?

I have spoken to multiple people about this question. As the end continues to draw closer things will get worse and worse. There will be warfare, earthquakes, famine, and disease. Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, disobedient to parents, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.

I do not fear these times, I accept it will happen. My question is how should one who loves God act during these times in a way that is holy and not part of the world or falling short of God's standard.. If someone threatens my life and wishes to commit murder, can I defend my body if it means the attacker dies in the process?

All of Jesus' disciples besides Judas Iscariot (who committed suicide) where killed/murdered and I don't believe any defended themselves.
Scripure says something along the lines of "Those who lose their lives will find it, those who keep their lives will lose it" does this mean by defending yourself you will be punished?
Scripure also says something along the lines of "there is no greater love than laying down your life for another" does this mean you could risk your life defending another Person?

I understand the concept of ending someone's life short when there is a possibility of them having asked for repentance/salvation later on, IF they hadn't been killed.. But still, I wonder how I would act in that situation.

How would you act? Would you let someone kill you or a loved one?

I'd say that it is one thing to lay down your life because an antagonist will kill you for being a Christian, but it is another if some random hoodlum...dares...to enter your home and threatens to kill your spouse and/or children. Paul also said that "Love protects." We as Christians should be doing so. Jesus also didn't denigrate the centurion who asked Him to heal his servant; moreover, Jesus didn't tell the centurion to stop being a centurion.

Some some additional things to think about. Being a Martyr for Christ is one thing; being a naive victim is another.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[-57]

It is that He been seen as a transgressor. Jesus is intentionally orchestrating things so that the Jewish authorities will have plausible grounds for arresting Him.

Remember the incident in the temple with Jesus overthrowing the tables of the moneychangers. This is not, as many people think, merely a repudiation of the sin of materialism. It is also a shrewd provocation on the part of Jesus. By creating a ruckus in the temple, He is forcing the hand of the Jewish leaders – they cannot allow such behaviour, Jesus must be arrested soon.

I don't think Jesus did the above to serve a purpose of getting arrested. Jesus was acting in truth and it was the truth that got Him arrested...not some role playing as you seem to suggest.

 

[SkyWriting]

Why do you think Jesus said the following?
Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

Jesus Himself admits that 2 swords is enough
for 13 people in the next sentence.
I have a number of knives in my kitchen.

 

[381465]

Can a Christian defend himself OR others? (Defensive killing)

Yes.


This topic is obsessed over.

If one disagrees with defending against evil, fine. Please alert the less righteous of your position if they come to your defense. Ammunition has gotten expensive.

 

[expos4ever]

I don't think Jesus did the above to serve a purpose of getting arrested.

Well, let's examine what Jesus actually said:

...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'

Jesus cannot be misunderstood: He is telling us why he is ordering the swords - so that a prophecy about Him being numbered with transgressors is fulfilled.

Even if you want to argue that He was not trying to get Himself arrested that point remains undebatable: a clear reason is given for the instruction to buy a sword.

And it is not "so that you can defend yourselves".

It is so that Jesus will be seen as a transgressor.

Jesus's words, not mine.

 

[expos4ever]

If one disagrees with defending against evil, fine. Please alert the less righteous of your position if they come to your defense. Ammunition has gotten expensive.

Would you offer this advice to the Galilean who said:

But I say to you, do not resist an evil person

I agree that Jesus' stance on this issue is hard to accept, but it really does seem that He is adopting a fully pacifist stance.

 

[expos4ever]

Jesus Himself admits that 2 swords is enough
for 13 people in the next sentence.
I have a number of knives in my kitchen.

But this limitation offers more support to the "I must be seen as a transgressor" goal than the self-defence goal.

Two swords is enough for a band 13 to be seen as trouble-maker, thereby facilitating their leader's arrest.

On the other hand, if the issue is self-defence, it would seem to make more sense that each man have a sword.

 

[-57]

Well, let's examine what Jesus actually said:

...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'

Jesus cannot be misunderstood: He is telling us why he is ordering the swords - so that a prophecy about Him being numbered with transgressors is fulfilled.

Even if you want to argue that He was not trying to get Himself arrested that point remains undebatable: a clear reason is given for the instruction to buy a sword.

And it is not "so that you can defend yourselves".

It is so that Jesus will be seen as a transgressor.

Jesus's words, not mine.

Jesus was saying that the sword should not be used in His defense...but rather their defense if need be.
Peter didn't get it...He drew his sword and cut off an ear.

 

[frienden thalord]

Their is a real easy answer.........
DID JESUS defend himself
sure he might have said go and buy one
but did he NOT tell peter................hours later.........PUT UP YOU SWORD
he who lives by it , will die by the sword.......
JESUS healed the man who peter had cut the ear off .......
then JESUS prayed for his enemies to be forgiven.
what did Stephen do.........................he rebuked them massively
as JESUS had rebuked sin and error too.
BUT did Stephen defend himself.............NO
and not only that.....he too LIKE our LORD prayed their forgivness..........
so my advice is............FOLLOW ONLY JESUS PATTERN
mans thinker is mans mind
FOLLOW CHRIST and walk as DID HE.
really such a simple walk, that MAN , his mind has complicated.
Flee carnal wisdom..................JUST FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF CHRIST in the gospels
and the example of the true men who followed HIM.
its real simple. keep reading the bible...........those scrips DO make us wise
unto salvation through faith in Christ...............

 

[381465]

Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

Psalm 18:34 He teaches my hands to make war, So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze

 

[Code Phox]

Jesus cannot be misunderstood: He is telling us why he is ordering the swords - so that a prophecy about Him being numbered with transgressors is fulfilled.
.......
And it is not "so that you can defend yourselves".

You are saying the acquiring of swords only plays a role in fulfilling proficiency and has no other significance? Much like he rode to Jerusalem on a donkey when he could have walked?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

If we go by what people say then its mixed. But if we go by what the bible says, then the answer is clear. If you have literally no choice but to kill someone because they are trying to kill you, then its acceptable. You'd still have to pray for forgiveness for murder, but none the less God knows it was in a last resort of self defense. The bible even says greater is the man who loves that lays down his own life for his brother.

Now do I want to kill someone? No. Especially with out screwed up law system. To many times a person legally defending themselves does so and goes to prison for murder. And if you didn't kill the person, often they will sue you and actually win. Its so annoying.

If someone breaks into my home and has a weapon, I will shoot them. I wouldn't go for a head shot, but I would cripple them so the police can arrest them.

 

[Code Phox]

Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

Psalm 18:34 He teaches my hands to make war, So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze

Those are scripure of the old testament. The new testament has more of a "if someone strikes you on the cheek, turn your head and give them the other as well" style.

 

[Jezmeyah]

Is it right for a Christian to defend himself OR others if it will result in the attacker/threats death?

I have spoken to multiple people about this question. As the end continues to draw closer things will get worse and worse. There will be warfare, earthquakes, famine, and disease. Men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, disobedient to parents, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.

I do not fear these times, I accept it will happen. My question is how should one who loves God act during these times in a way that is holy and not part of the world or falling short of God's standard.. If someone threatens my life and wishes to commit murder, can I defend my body if it means the attacker dies in the process?

All of Jesus' disciples besides Judas Iscariot (who committed suicide) where killed/murdered and I don't believe any defended themselves.
Scripure says something along the lines of "Those who lose their lives will find it, those who keep their lives will lose it" does this mean by defending yourself you will be punished?
Scripure also says something along the lines of "there is no greater love than laying down your life for another" does this mean you could risk your life defending another Person?

I understand the concept of ending someone's life short when there is a possibility of them having asked for repentance/salvation later on, IF they hadn't been killed.. But still, I wonder how I would act in that situation.

How would you act? Would you let someone kill you or a loved one?

There's only one verse where it could be said that a Christian defended himself in the face of death. Peter who sliced off the Roman soldier's ear.

Jesus was there to restore the man's ear back in place on his head.

There are no other such scriptures that indicate that any Christian used a weapon to protect themselves or others when attacked.

The apostle Paul wrote that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood". I'm sure that the saints in the Revelation could have protected themselves with carnal weapons of warfare but instead it says that they "overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, and did not love their lives unto death."

That tells me that during those difficult times their testimony was in pleading the blood of Jesus, that none could hurt them. But when finally arrested they did not plead the blood so that any subjection to means of death would not hurt them.

Because, they had read about themselves in those verses, so they knew when to plead the blood, and knew when to allow themselves to be martyred and, joy of joys, go on to heaven!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Those are scripure of the old testament. The new testament has more of a "if someone strikes you on the cheek, turn your head and give them the other as well" style.

...but then, let's say, someone strikes your son on the cheek, and then the other, and then kicks him, and then throws him to the ground and begins to beat his face to a bloody pulp. Should you, the father, look the other way and simply say, "my son is doing a fine job of turning his other cheek, so I'll just stand here while it happens and be proud."

Somehow, I don't think that Jesus' overall point is about being a complete pacifist, but rather not harboring revenge and a desire for overt retribution upon one's antagonist.

 

[expos4ever]

Jesus was saying that the sword should not be used in His defense...but rather their defense if need be.

Where does He say this?

I see no explanation here except to fulfill a prophecy about being seen as a transgressor:

...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'