Christ is the end of the law

[bugkiller]

1 Peter 2:21-22 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

To you that means the Christian is obligated to keep the law (take up Judaism) when Jesus taught otherwise. See JN 15:10

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

If grace were automatic, then our salvation would not involve being trained by grace to do good works.

What are these good works you talk about? Are they not works (keeping the law)?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So God says, keep my commandments and Jesus said he is sent my the father to do his will, which would mean his commandments and tells us to keep the commandments and that is legalism?

Jesus says to keep the commandments.

Jesus said to the apostles to go and teach all that he taught them....the only thing around at that time was what we call the OT, so Jesus taught the Torah.

Jesus said the Law and the Prophets are a SUM of Love God and Love one another, NOT a cancellation of everything.

Jesus says no such thing about the 10 Cs. JN 15:10

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So when you sin and get automatic grace, so then there is no need to repent then. We have grace because we sin.

You pit the Bible against itself to suit your fancy.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Someone who has perfect faith in God to guide them in how they should live would live in perfect obedience to God's commands. You malign Jesus' character by suggesting that instead of perfect faith he would disobey God's commands and get caught up with the pettiness of snubbing the noses of others. You are seriously suggesting that Jesus was snubbing them for doing what God had commanded them to do, but rather the issue was that they following their own traditions instead of what God commanded them to do.

In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded with asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He then went on to say that they made void the Word of God for the sake of their tradition (Matthew 15:6), that they were worshipping God in vain because they were teaching as doctrine the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God to establish their own traditions. While Jesus certainly broke the traditions of men, he never sinned in disobedience to God's commands.

Are you applying this to Christians of today?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The Bible defines sin as Lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so sin is an action taken in disobedience to God's Law. You can't believe that Jesus is Lord without submitting to him as Lord through your actions. In Galatians 5:16-23 all of the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with what it instructs, which makes sense because the Law was given by God, the Spirit is God, and the Spirit has to role of leading us to obey the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).



Jesus summarized the Law and the Prophets as being instructions for how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so if you correctly understand Christ's commandment to love, then you will live in obedience to the Law.

You are still arguing the covenant made with Israel alone includes Christians. I can not get this idea after reading Jer 31:31-33, especially v 32.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Please show me where in the bible where Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, the Apostles or Paul taught or believed that!

You are only a sinner when you break the commandments, it is not a sin to be born.

No I was a sinner because of Adam and nothing I personally did. I say was a sinner because now I am righteous through Jesus as declared by God the Father and taught by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. JN 5:24. One can not pass the judgment unless they are righteous.

bugkiller

 

[Soyeong]

I read the scripture different than you.

Well, then please explain how I have incorrectly understood it and how it should be correctly understood. During the 1st century, there was a large body of Jewish oral laws, ruling, traditions, and fences for how they taught to obey God's Law, so it is important to correctly distinguish between what is said about these Jewish laws and what is said about God's Law. For example, the law mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles is a Jewish law that isn't found in God's law, and it was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, so in verse 14 when Paul was speaking about living like a Jew, he was referring to following Jewish oral law and traditions.

So likewise, in 1 Corinthians 9:20-21, Paul was already a Jew, so he couldn't become a Jew, but rather he was speaking about living like a Jew under Jewish laws and tradition in order to reach Jews for Christ. He was speaking about giving up his rights to meet people where they were at. He was not speaking about committing murder and adultery in order to reach murderers and adulterers for Christ or doing anything else that God revealed to be sin in His Law in order to reach sinners because that would undermine his message to them.

 

[bugkiller]

In verse 21, Paul said in a parallel statement that he was not without the Law of God and that he was under the Law of Christ, so those both refer to the same thing. I do not see any reason to think that the Law of Christ is anything other than how he taught obedience to the Mosaic Law by word and by example.

Sorry but Jesus did not teach obedience to the Mosaic law. JN 15:10

bugkiller

 

[Soyeong]

Hello Soyeong.

Your understanding of the good news is so confused.

Are you saved because you believe in Jesus Christ, or are you saved, based primarily on your day to day repentance from sin?

This is a description of what our salvation looks like:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

The Mosaic Law instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives, and for how to do good works, so our salvation involves both believing in Christ to redeem us from all Lawlessness and believing him to purify us, transform us, and train us by grace to be zealous for the Law.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as Lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so our salvation from sin necessarily involves being saved from the penalty of our Lawlessness and being made into someone who is obedient to God and no longer transgresses His Law. In Philippians 2:12, it speaks about working out of salvation with fear and trembling, so that is again referring becoming more obedient to God's Law. God said that what He commanded was for His people's own good (Deuteronomy 6:24), so if we believe what God said and have faith in Him to guide us in how we should rightly live, then we will live in obedience to God's Law. As Jesus said in Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law. Likewise, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his commands (John 14:15), so obedience to God's commands is how He wants us to show our love for him, and thereby grow in a relationship with Him based on faith and love.

So it is by grace through faith in Christ that we have been saved from the penalty of our Lawlessness and by the same grace through the same faith in Christ we are being saved from continuing to sin by being trained to continue practicing repentance and obedience.

 

[Soyeong]

Love is having the mind of Christ in us and that has nothing to do with do's and don'ts. Your whole understanding of law is do this and don't do that. That's not love and the reason why the scribes and Pharisees rejected Christ.

1 John 2:3-6 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

In these verses saying that we ought to follow Christ's commands is associated with saying that we ought to walk in the same way that he walked, and even if Christ had commanded nothing, he still would have taught obedience to the Mosaic Law by example, and we are told to follow his example and walk in the same way he walked. If we are in Christ, then we have the responsibility to be like him and to do as he did. The Law is not an arbitrary list of do's and don'ts, but is instructions for how to love God and our neighbor, how to have faith in God, and how to thereby grow a relationship with Him. Obedience to the Law is about by grace through faith reflecting God's character to the world, about reflecting God's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, holiness, and righteousness, but we can't do that without that involving acting according to God's instructions.

You have the performance gospel which is all about keeping the rules. You can't even admit that Jesus broke the law on so many occasions. The Sabbath in particular he chose to show his disdain for the written code. We do not become righteous by following rules which is what the whole ministry of Jesus was about. Atheists can keep the rules. The scribes and Pharisees kept the rules. Righteousness is much more than that.

We have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and Jesus gave himself to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works (Titus 2:14), and Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from the kingdom of God is at hand, so to say that the Gospel does not involve obedience is absurd. Jesus being sinless is a core doctrine of Christianity, which means that he never broke the Law. I have never suggested that we become righteous by following rules, but rather the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by faith, and by the same faith we are to be careful to obey all of God's commands because the vocation of someone who is righteous is to do what is righteous. Anyone can keep rules without having faith, but no one can have faith without having the desire to keep rules because faith without works is dead. In other word, you can't have faith in God to guide you in how to rightly live while refusing to be guided by His instructions for how to do that.

 

[bugkiller]

This is a description of what our salvation looks like:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

The Mosaic Law instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives, and for how to do good works, so our salvation involves both believing in Christ to redeem us from all Lawlessness and believing him to purify us, transform us, and train us by grace to be zealous for the Law.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as Lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so our salvation from sin necessarily involves being saved from the penalty of our Lawlessness and being made into someone who is obedient to God and no longer transgresses His Law. In Philippians 2:12, it speaks about working out of salvation with fear and trembling, so that is again referring becoming more obedient to God's Law. God said that what He commanded was for His people's own good (Deuteronomy 6:24), so if we believe what God said and have faith in Him to guide us in how we should rightly live, then we will live in obedience to God's Law. As Jesus said in Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law. Likewise, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his commands (John 14:15), so obedience to God's commands is how He wants us to show our love for him, and thereby grow in a relationship with Him based on faith and love.

So it is by grace through faith in Christ that we have been saved from the penalty of our Lawlessness and by the same grace through the same faith in Christ we are being saved from continuing to sin by being trained to continue practicing repentance and obedience.

The problem I am having is your reference to God's law really means the law issued to Israel alone. Jeremiah says the NC will not be like the one issued at Sinai.

You believe Jesus issued the 10 Cs against JN 1:17 and 15:10.

bugkiller

 

[jaybird88]

Jesus was God and you're not. You're supposed to live by faith in his perfect obedience not try to out do him like some kid on the playground.

thats all great but how about the question you forgot to answer. did Jesus commit this greatest sin your going on about or not?

 

[jaybird88]

What do you know about Jesus? What was His obligations as a Jew?

bugkiller

i know He followed the laws of His Father.
Mt 5 19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[bloodygrace]

1 John 2:3-6 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

In these verses saying that we ought to follow Christ's commands is associated with saying that we ought to walk in the same way that he walked, and even if Christ had commanded nothing, he still would have taught obedience to the Mosaic Law by example, and we are told to follow his example and walk in the same way he walked. If we are in Christ, then we have the responsibility to be like him and to do as he did. The Law is not an arbitrary list of do's and don'ts, but is instructions for how to love God and our neighbor, how to have faith in God, and how to thereby grow a relationship with Him. Obedience to the Law is about by grace through faith reflecting God's character to the world, about reflecting God's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, holiness, and righteousness, but we can't do that without that involving acting according to God's instructions.



We have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and Jesus gave himself to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works (Titus 2:14), and Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from the kingdom of God is at hand, so to say that the Gospel does not involve obedience is absurd. Jesus being sinless is a core doctrine of Christianity, which means that he never broke the Law. I have never suggested that we become righteous by following rules, but rather the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by faith, and by the same faith we are to be careful to obey all of God's commands because the vocation of someone who is righteous is to do what is righteous. Anyone can keep rules without having faith, but no one can have faith without having the desire to keep rules because faith without works is dead. In other word, you can't have faith in God to guide you in how to rightly live while refusing to be guided by His instructions for how to do that.

The is no love, joy, peace and patience etc. in law keeping and you know it. You are always going to say law and I am always going to say faith and love. I've been where you are and it's only by a miracle of God's grace that I made it out of that nightmare of a religion. There is more hope of the unconverted accepting the gospel than you.

 

[bloodygrace]

thats all great but how about the question you forgot to answer. did Jesus commit this greatest sin your going on about or not?

What greatest sin?

 

[jaybird88]

What greatest sin?

There is nothing in the NT that requires believers to keep the law and believers who attempt to keep the law are fallen from grace and close to being cut off. Law keeping is the worst thing you can do because it is a denial of the finished work of Christ where everything necessary for Salvation is already accomplished. Legalism is the worst sin in the bible.

 

[Soyeong]

The is no love, joy, peace and patience etc. in law keeping and you know it.

Is this verse wrong?

Psalms 119:165 Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble.

There are many instances throughout the Psalms where David delighted in God's Law (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 37:23, Psalms 40:8, Psalms 112:1, Psalms 119:16, Psalms 119:35, Psalms 119:70, Psalms 119:77, Psalms 119:143, Psalms 119:174). Paul also delighted in obeying God's Law, so he was on the same page as David (Romans 7:22). God also wants His people to delight in His commands (Isaiah 11:3, Isaiah 58:2, Isaiah 58:13-14), so God's Law was given to be a delight, and delighting in obeying God's Law is the correct response to it. God's are not arbitrary, but rather they reveal the character of God and instruct us how to live in accordance with His character (Exodus 34:6-7). For example, in Leviticus 11:44-45, God was giving instructions for how to be holy for He is holy, so following those Laws is about living according to the holiness of our God, following God's laws for how to do what is righteous is living according to the righteousness of our God, and so forth. Jesus said that the weightier matters of the Law are justice, mercy, and faith, so the obedience to the Law is about teachings how to reflect those characteristics of God to the world.

You are always going to say law and I am always going to say faith and love. I've been where you are and it's only by a miracle of God's grace that I made it out of that nightmare of a religion. There is more hope of the unconverted accepting the gospel than you.

Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey His commands, that faith was one of the weightier matters of the Law, and that we should repent of our sins, and God gracious by teaching us to obey His Law (Psalms 119:29), so you can't have faith, love, grace, or the Gospel without obedience.

 

[W2L]

Well, then please explain how I have incorrectly understood it and how it should be correctly understood. During the 1st century, there was a large body of Jewish oral laws, ruling, traditions, and fences for how they taught to obey God's Law, so it is important to correctly distinguish between what is said about these Jewish laws and what is said about God's Law. For example, the law mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles is a Jewish law that isn't found in God's law, and it was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, so in verse 14 when Paul was speaking about living like a Jew, he was referring to following Jewish oral law and traditions.

So likewise, in 1 Corinthians 9:20-21, Paul was already a Jew, so he couldn't become a Jew, but rather he was speaking about living like a Jew under Jewish laws and tradition in order to reach Jews for Christ. He was speaking about giving up his rights to meet people where they were at. He was not speaking about committing murder and adultery in order to reach murderers and adulterers for Christ or doing anything else that God revealed to be sin in His Law in order to reach sinners because that would undermine his message to them.

Circumcision is the Law. Why do we not become circumcised then?

Galatians 5New King James Version (NKJV)
Christian Liberty
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

 

[Soyeong]

Circumcision is the Law. Why do we not become circumcised then?

Galatians 5New King James Version (NKJV)
Christian Liberty
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

According to Isaiah 45:25, all Israel will be saved, so some Jews mistakenly thought that meant that Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes in order to become saved, which meant going through the process of circumcision, and which meant joining the group of people who agreed at Sinai to do everything that Moses said (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 5:22-28). Moses had the authority to make rulings about how the Torah should be obeyed and by the 1st century this authority was passed down to those who sat in Moses' seat (Matthew 23:2-4) and it had become a large body of oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences, which Jesus referred to as placing a heavy burden on the backs of the people. He certainly was not criticizing the Pharisees for instructing the people to do what God had commanded. So by agreeing to become circumcised, Gentiles were agreeing to become Jews and to live as Jews according to all of the oral laws of the Pharisees and doing this all for the purpose of becoming saved (Acts 15:1). While God did require circumcision as a sign of the Abrahamic covenant, He did not require either Jews or Gentiles to become circumcised or to obey Jewish oral laws in order to become saved, so by rejecting that man-made requirement the Jerusalem Council was upholding God's Law. By referring to the Jewish oral laws as a heavy burden that no one could bear in Acts 15:10, they were simply expressing the same opinion of them that Jesus had expressed.

Can someone consider God's Laws to be so onerous that to be required to obey them is bondage without that reflecting negatively on their opinion of the Lawgiver? In Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and Romans 10:5-10, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult and in 1 John 5:3, it confirms that the commands of God are not burdensome, so if the Jerusalem Council had been referring to God's Law as a heavy burden, then they would have been directly contradicting God, and you would need to make a decision about who to believe. God did not save the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt to put them back under bondage to His Law, but rather as Galatians 5:1 states it is for freedom that God sets us free, and God's Law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25), while it is sin in transgression of God's Law that puts us in bondage (1 John 3:4). There are numerous times throughout the Psalms that David delighted in obeying God's Law (Psalms 1:1-2), which Paul also did (Romans 7:22), and which God wants His people to do (Isaiah 58:13-14), so God's Law was given to be a delight, and that is the correct response to it by faith, rather than to consider it to be a heavy burden.

Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who zealous for doing good works (Titus 2:14), so living in disobedience to God's Law is the bondage that he gave himself to free us from so that we could be free to become zealous for obeying God's Law, which is profitable for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Jesus began His ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law is who we can look up what things are sins that we should be repenting of, so repenting of our disobedience to the Law is an integral part of the Gospel message.

Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Law, and we are told follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way as he walked (1 John 2:3-6). When he was inviting people to follow him, take his yoke upon them, and learn from him, he was inviting us to follow his teachings and his example, so in Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus was saying that the way he taught to obey God's Law was light and easy in contrast with how the Pharisees taught to obey it. By saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was reference Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Law is equated as the good way where we will find rest for our souls.