Christ is the end of the law

[bloodygrace]

Please explain how keeping the commandments of God is the worst thing you can do because it denies the finished work of the cross....are you listening to what you are saying? Image if Jesus was walking around with that thought process....hear ye, hear ye, following my fathers commands is the worst thing you can do....they would have put him to death immediately and Paul too if he went around teaching that.

Because it is legalism and a denial of Christ just like Paul said in Galatians. You are supposed to do as Jesus says not as he does because you're a sinner and he was God.

 

[bloodygrace]

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Can you grant that this verse is specifically saying that those who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen from grace? Can you also grant that no one in this thread has ever suggested that we need to try to become justified by obeying the law? Can you even point to where the God required obedience to His Law for the purpose of justification? If not, then can you grant that there could be other purpose for which the Law was given?

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Can you grant that God's Law instructs how to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives? Can you also grant that finished work of Christ was to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works? And that such good works would not be adding to the finished work of Christ, but would be what the finished work of Christ entails by grace?

Can you grant that the Bible defines sin as the transgression of the Law whereas you've defined sin as obedience to the Law?

Grace is automatic obedience where I don't try to be good or work at it.

Law-keeping is human obedience where my efforts and merits supersede my trust in Christ.

All you do is push law keeping and now you want to play all innocent like you're not. You are not fooling anyone.

 

[Soyeong]

Because it is legalism and a denial of Christ just like Paul said in Galatians. You are supposed to do as Jesus says not as he does because you're a sinner and he was God.

1 Peter 2:21-22 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

 

[bloodygrace]

so Jesus committed the worst sin by following the law?

Jesus was God and you're not. You're supposed to live by faith in his perfect obedience not try to out do him like some kid on the playground.

 

[bloodygrace]

1 Peter 2:21-22 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

His example was a perfect life of faith and trust in his Father. He broke the Sabbath over and over again to the point that every miracle was done on the Sabbath just to rub it in the noses of the law keepers.

 

[Soyeong]

Grace is automatic obedience where I don't try to be good or work at it.

Law-keeping is human obedience where my efforts and merits supersede my trust in Christ.

All you do is push law keeping and now you want to play all innocent like you're not. You are not fooling anyone.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

If grace were automatic, then our salvation would not involve being trained by grace to do good works.

 

[bloodygrace]

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

If grace were automatic, then our salvation would not involve being trained by grace to do good works.

It's automatic for those who believe. I guess you don't have any faith.

 

[SAAN]

Because it is legalism and a denial of Christ just like Paul said in Galatians. You are supposed to do as Jesus says not as he does because you're a sinner and he was God.

So God says, keep my commandments and Jesus said he is sent my the father to do his will, which would mean his commandments and tells us to keep the commandments and that is legalism?

Jesus says to keep the commandments.

Jesus said to the apostles to go and teach all that he taught them....the only thing around at that time was what we call the OT, so Jesus taught the Torah.

Jesus said the Law and the Prophets are a SUM of Love God and Love one another, NOT a cancellation of everything.

 

[SAAN]

It's automatic for those who believe. I guess you don't have any faith.

So when you sin and get automatic grace, so then there is no need to repent then. We have grace because we sin.

 

[bloodygrace]

So God says, keep my commandments and Jesus said he is sent my the father to do his will, which would mean his commandments and tells us to keep the commandments and that is legalism?

Jesus says to keep the commandments.

Jesus said to the apostles to go and teach all that he taught them....the only thing around at that time was what we call the OT, so Jesus taught the Torah.

Jesus said the Law and the Prophets are a SUM of Love God and Love one another, NOT a cancellation of everything.

Jesus said the new commandment is love and so did John over and over and over. But you are willfully ignorant of that so you can trust in your human works.

 

[bloodygrace]

So when you sin and get automatic grace, so then there is no need to repent then. We have grace because we sin.

Sin is a state of unbelief not an outward action. Your whole experience is one of the flesh with no Spirit. You haven't even begun to walk with Christ the way he requires.

 

[Soyeong]

His example was a perfect life of faith and trust in his Father. He broke the Sabbath over and over again to the point that every miracle was done on the Sabbath just to rub it in the noses of the law keepers.

Someone who has perfect faith in God to guide them in how they should live would live in perfect obedience to God's commands. You malign Jesus' character by suggesting that instead of perfect faith he would disobey God's commands and get caught up with the pettiness of snubbing the noses of others. You are seriously suggesting that Jesus was snubbing them for doing what God had commanded them to do, but rather the issue was that they following their own traditions instead of what God commanded them to do.

In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded with asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He then went on to say that they made void the Word of God for the sake of their tradition (Matthew 15:6), that they were worshipping God in vain because they were teaching as doctrine the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God to establish their own traditions. While Jesus certainly broke the traditions of men, he never sinned in disobedience to God's commands.

 

[Soyeong]

Sin is a state of unbelief not an outward action. Your whole experience is one of the flesh with no Spirit. You haven't even begun to walk with Christ the way he requires.

The Bible defines sin as Lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so sin is an action taken in disobedience to God's Law. You can't believe that Jesus is Lord without submitting to him as Lord through your actions. In Galatians 5:16-23 all of the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with what it instructs, which makes sense because the Law was given by God, the Spirit is God, and the Spirit has to role of leading us to obey the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Jesus said the new commandment is love and so did John over and over and over. But you are willfully ignorant of that so you can trust in your human works.

Jesus summarized the Law and the Prophets as being instructions for how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so if you correctly understand Christ's commandment to love, then you will live in obedience to the Law.

 

[bloodygrace]

The Bible defines sin as Lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so sin is an action taken in disobedience to God's Law. You can't believe that Jesus is Lord without submitting to him as Lord through your actions. In Galatians 5:16-23 all of the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with what it instructs, which makes sense because the Law was given by God, the Spirit is God, and the Spirit has to role of leading us to obey the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Jesus summarized the Law and the Prophets as being instructions for how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so if you correctly understand Christ's commandment to love, then you will live in obedience to the Law.

God's law is spiritual and you violate it just by believing you can keep it. Did you hear that! Before you perform any action if you even believe you can keep God's holy law you are a sinner of the highest order. The reason being because you are unrepentant and don't see yourself as a sinner.

 

[Soyeong]

God's law is spiritual and you violate it just by believing you can keep it. Did you hear that! Before you perform any action if you even believe you can keep God's holy law you are a sinner of the highest order. The reason being because you are unrepentant and don't see yourself as a sinner.

The Law does not exhaustively prescribe every action that is righteous, nor does it exhaustively prohibit every action that is sinful, but rather the Law is spiritual because it has always been meant to teach us spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples. However, if you correctly understand the spiritual principles, and you have faith in God to guide you in how you should rightly live, then it will lead you to take actions that are in accordance with those principles.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law is how we can look up things are sins that we should be repenting of, but you are teaching against repentance and turning back to obedience to God's Law. Whether or not someone keeps the Law is based upon whether or not they continue to practice repentance and obedience.

 

[SAAN]

God's law is spiritual and you violate it just by believing you can keep it. Did you hear that! Before you perform any action if you even believe you can keep God's holy law you are a sinner of the highest order. The reason being because you are unrepentant and don't see yourself as a sinner.

Please show me where in the bible where Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, the Apostles or Paul taught or believed that!

You are only a sinner when you break the commandments, it is not a sin to be born.

 

[SAAN]

Sin is a state of unbelief not an outward action. Your whole experience is one of the flesh with no Spirit. You haven't even begun to walk with Christ the way he requires.

Sin is defined as transgression of the law. John taught that and all John had was the Torah, so he knew what he was talking about.

sin1
sin/
noun

1. 1.
   an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Soyeong.

You made some points below.

The Law does not exhaustively prescribe every action that is righteous, nor does it exhaustively prohibit every action that is sinful

Amen to that comment, the law only deals with some specific sins. There are a plethora of sins that the law never mentions. The law is an ineffective mechanism for identifying sin in the end, the law is too limited.

Now on the subject of the reason for our salvation.

Christ reconciles us, Christ transfers us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. We cannot influence this transfer from one kingdom to the other, in any way, shape or form. Christ is the sole cause of this transfer.

You will be saved if you believe in Jesus Christ, the operative word here is the word, 'believe'. Your works, repentance, e.t.c., follow on from the primary foundation of this believing in Jesus.

Some folk misunderstand that Christ is the rock on which we stand, not our works of obedience or repentance. Christ is the one who grants forgiveness, Christ is the one who reconciles us.

The real Gospel is far simpler than most imagine.

 

[W2L]

We are under the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ),

 

[Soyeong]

Hello Soyeong.

You made some points below.

Amen to that comment, the law only deals with some specific sins. There are a plethora of sins that the law never mentions. The law is an ineffective mechanism for identifying sin in the end, the law is too limited.

Hello,

If you do not consider that the law has always been meant to teach us spiritual principles, then the Law is limited, but if we can use those principles to determine whether other actions are righteous or sinful, then the Law is sufficient.

Now on the subject of the reason for our salvation.

Christ reconciles us, Christ transfers us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. We cannot influence this transfer from one kingdom to the other, in any way, shape or form. Christ is the sole cause of this transfer.

In Titus 2:11-14, it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is essentially Lawful and to renounce doing what is essentially Lawless. It says that Christ gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are zealous for doing good works, which is again what the Law was given to teach us how to do, and this is what our salvation from Lawlessness looks like. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul said that OT Scriptures were useful for equipping us to do every good work, not just the ones that it listed. Incidentally, this is why the tens of thousands of Jews who were coming to faith were becoming zealous for the Law (Acts 21:20).

You will be saved if you believe in Jesus Christ, the operative word here is the word, 'believe'. Your works, repentance, e.t.c., follow on from the primary foundation of this believing in Jesus.

Indeed, we can't believe that Jesus is Lord without submitting to him as Lord, and Romans 10:5-10 quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to what it means to submit to him as Lord.

Some folk misunderstand that Christ is the rock on which we stand, not our works of obedience or repentance. Christ is the one who grants forgiveness, Christ is the one who reconciles us.

The real Gospel is far simpler than most imagine.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Another way he could have said it is to repent from our sins for the King here at the door and knocking, but either way repentance from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is an integral part of the Gospel message, and he is the reason why we need to repent.