What controversial beliefs do you hold?

[Halbhh]

Open theism, although by its name sounds like it's about God, is really a belief about time. It's based on the idea that time is not some sort of entity (i.e. not something God created, like gravity); time is part of reality. Time is simply a word we use to describe the realty that existence is sequential. This has caused more controversy than it's worth, in my opinion. Classical theists will say, "Then you are saying that God is not all-knowing" and the open theist will say, "Not so. God exhaustively knows everything knowable. If there was a future to be known, God would, indeed, know it. It's just that the future hasn't happened yet. Not in reality and not "in the mind of God" because time is *not an entity* that God created."

Interesting, since I didn't bother to look it up, and turns out it touches on one of the most central questions that comes up for agnostics, which in general form is something like: "If God already knows what you will do, how is that fair?" or the 100 other similar ways of asking about this pre-knowledge notion that seems to suggest salvation or lack thereof, without choice. And agnostics are not satisfied, most, I think, with that idea of 'we have choice, real choice, but God already knows what we will choose' which only sounds like the speaker hasn't even thought about what they are saying, and only reduces faith for the agnostic trying to figure out things.

I think it can't make any sense for God and Christ to give us commands unless we have a choice to do them. So therefore, God must have made us unpredictable, by His design. The "plan" He has for us then is the plan for salvation, open to all. We were all born with Him, predestined for salvation, but we often stray. Only "few will choose the narrow gate". There is actually choice. Thus the future cannot be predetermined. God set it up as not yet determined, except that certain things are going to happen, because He will accomplish His plan regardless of the unpredictable choices we are making (because He made us unpredictable even though He can of course see the direction we are heading in at any time unless we change course and can see the broad trend of humanity like a weather model can predict a broad trend in the Earth's climate (but He is likely rather more accurate!). So, in summary, He can see where we are going, unless we suddenly change, as He made us able to do.).

 

[redleghunter]

Full preterism is the view that all prophecies of the bible have already happened. Partial preterism (which is where I lean) is the view that all prophecies of the bible, except for Jesus' physical return and the restoration of all things, have already happened.

Open theism, although by its name sounds like it's about God, is really a belief about time. It's based on the idea that time is not some sort of entity (i.e. not something God created, like gravity); time is part of reality. Time is simply a word we use to describe the realty that existence is sequential. This has caused more controversy than it's worth, in my opinion. Classical theists will say, "Then you are saying that God is not all-knowing" and the open theist will say, "Not so. God exhaustively knows everything knowable. If there was a future to be known, God would, indeed, know it. It's just that the future hasn't happened yet. Not in reality and not "in the mind of God" because time is *not an entity* that God created."

More on open theism:

Open Theism, also called openness and the open view, is a theological position dealing with human free will and its relationship to God and the nature of the future. It is the teaching that God has granted to humanity free will and that in order for the free will to be truly free, the future free will choices of individuals cannot be known ahead of time by God. They hold that if God knows what we are going to choose, then how can we be truly free when it is time to make those choices --since a counter choice cannot then be made by us, because it is already "known" what we are going to do.1 In other words, we would not actually be able to make a contrary choice to what God "knows" we will choose thus implying that we would not then be free.

In Open Theism, the future is either knowable or not knowable. For the open theists who hold that the future is knowable by God, they maintain that God voluntarily limits His knowledge of free will choices so that they can remain truly free. 2

What is Open Theism? | carm

 

[redleghunter]

Interesting, since I didn't bother to look it up, and turns out it touches on one of the most central questions that comes up for agnostics, which in general form is something like: "If God already knows what you will do, how is that fair?"

A valid question when interrogating another created being. However, Open Theism denies a sovereign God. He has free will too!

 

[parousia70]

I think it can't make any sense for God and Christ to give us commands unless we have a choice to do them. So therefore, God must have made us unpredictable, by His design.... Thus the future cannot be predetermined..

How was this possible then?
Luke 22:34 Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”

 

[parousia70]

One would have to believe the one is mutually exclusive to the other. Which is a possibility, however, as pointed out Didache 16 is confirmed by Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2.

I still fail to see how the Didache, Matt 24 or 2 Thess proves that post apostolic Christians were correct in what believed and taught regarding eschatology.

Indeed, the post apostolic Church has never had a unified eschatology the way the apostles did.
Still doesn't. Clearly.

 

[surrender1]

A valid question when interrogating another created being. However, Open Theism denies a sovereign God. He has free will too!

They don't deny a sovereign God. They deny that the definition of sovereign must include knowing things unknowable (i.e. a future that doesn't exist). They affirm that God is sovereign and exhaustively knows all things knowable.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, the apostles unanimously believed and taught that Christ's return would happen in "their generation", for they preached that it was then "soon coming, without delay, at hand, must shortly take place, before they finished preaching in all of Israels cities", and was indeed "About to be".

Can you show me "without delay?"

The apostle Peter (your first Pope I believe) said thus:

2 Peter 3: New King James Version (NKJV)

3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The apostle Paul said thus:

1 Thessalonians 1: New King James Version (NKJV)

6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. 8 For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything. 9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 4: New King James Version (NKJV)

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5: New King James Version (NKJV)

5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

2 Thessalonians 1: New King James Version (NKJV)

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2: New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christa]'> had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[redleghunter]

I still fail to see how the Didache, Matt 24 or 2 Thess proves that post apostolic Christians were correct in what believed and taught regarding eschatology.

Indeed, the post apostolic Church has never had a unified eschatology the way the apostles did.
Still doesn't. Clearly.

Didache 16 is not controversial. As pointed out in my above post, it IS apostolic teachings.

Not understanding your point. In Didache 16 the author is using actual words and teachings from the New Testament from Christ Jesus, Peter and Paul. It is a very simple and straight forward theology. Watch and wait.

 

[Halbhh]

How was this possible then?
Luke 22:34 Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”

I've thought of that and other such instances, more than once. It occurs to me that it must be He could see the direction Peter was going in, and.....like a cold front approaching, it was pretty much a sure thing to happen. But, more, here it includes some very precise bits like 3 times, and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows with the 3rd denial. So, admittedly, that would make it more like a precise foreknowledge than only a highly likely prediction, or.....or a sovereign God did not let His words "fall to the ground" (as the OT quote), inducing the challenges that caused the predictable denials, and then inducing a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to crow (or holding back the natural crowing until the 3rd denial, and then allowing it). The point of this passage is of course about how even believers can fail, and our needs for repenting and returning to Him. While I'm willing very much to allow there are mysteries that we do not understand, and am quite comfortable with them often, I still feel we really do have real freedom of choice, which means in some manner of some kind, He is allowing that. Perhaps under the constraints of that precise situation, as totally known with omniscience, the denials were very predictable. Peter wouldn't even have a near chance (a moment when internal forces are near to balance) to alter course.

 

[redleghunter]

I still fail to see how the Didache, Matt 24 or 2 Thess proves that post apostolic Christians were correct in what believed and taught regarding eschatology.

From another angle, then that would mean 'we' later Christians tend to pick and choose what we like from the early church fathers and chuck the rest. This is eisegesis at it's worst. Which is how some 'use' the early church fathers. On the one hand quoting someone like Origen and then calling him a heretic. Which Church Doctor Irenaeus would be a heretic as he was a millennialist. Yet he has a feast day and is a Doctor of the Church. Amazing.

Which means the church later through doctrinal development took the stance that they knew better and pick and choose what they believe to be 'orthodox' yet at a later date.

If we approach from exegesis we look to what these church fathers believed and examine each belief in accordance with the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles.

 

[surrender1]

How was this possible then?
Luke 22:34 Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”

*If* the future is not a created entity (i.e. it doesn’t exist, not even in the mind of God), God could still have easily made sure the situation with Peter took place as predicted to Peter. (I happen to believe it happened to humble Peter so that he would be better prepared for the ministry he was about to enter into) I actually think it would take a much more impressive God to use his resourcefulness to bring this “denial story” about rather than simply looking into a crystal ball, so to speak, and telling Peter what was going to happen. If I go to the movies with a friend and I’ve already seen the movie (but my friend doesn’t know this), I would look pretty impressive if I keep “predicting” what’s going to happen next but, in reality, it’s not impressive at all. God would have to know the heart of Peter quite intimately (i.e. his weaknesses) and the hearts of those around him at the time (i.e. their readiness to accuse). This doesn't seem that incredibly difficult for a God whose known our thoughts and motivations ever since birth. God would have to know that at least three people who were ready and willing to challenge Peter’s devotion, and God would have to make sure those three people crossed Peter’s path that night. As soon as the third person freely chose to challenge Peter, God could make the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow to drive his point home to Peter. You see, I’m not convinced that any of this requires a crystal ball kind of deal. Just great predictions by intimately knowing hearts and slight interference in someone’s mind to cross Peter’s path or make a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow.

 

[surrender1]

I've thought of that and other such instances, more than once. It occurs to me that it must be He could see the direction Peter was going in, and.....like a cold front approaching, it was pretty much a sure thing to happen. But, more, here it includes some very precise bits like 3 times, and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows with the 3rd denial. So, admittedly, that would make it more like a precise foreknowledge than only a highly likely prediction, or.....or a sovereign God did not let His words "fall to the ground" (as the OT quote), inducing the challenges that caused the predictable denials, and then inducing a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to crow (or holding back the natural crowing until the 3rd denial, and then allowing it). The point of this passage is of course about how even believers can fail, and our needs for repenting and returning to Him. While I'm willing very much to allow there are mysteries that we do not understand, and am quite comfortable with them often, I still feel we really do have real freedom of choice, which means in some manner of some kind, He is allowing that.

I'm interested in your thoughts to my reply to parousia70 above.

 

[parousia70]

Can you show me "without delay?"

“For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

The apostle Paul said thus:

1 Thessalonians 1: New King James Version (NKJV)

6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. 8 For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything. 9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Clearly Paul is displaying a then contemporary expectation, no? "Delivers US from the coming wrath" He is clearly including himself in that expectation.

1 Thessalonians 4: New King James Version (NKJV)

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Again, Same expectation. "we who are alive and remain"

2 Thessalonians 1: New King James Version (NKJV)

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

This one is especially instructive.
Are the Thessalonians still suffering at the hands of their persecutors, or are they at rest?
Remember, the only time Paul says will bring them rest from their persecution is at the revealing of Jesus and His Mighty Angels (What I think you call "the 2nd coming")

2 Thessalonians 2: New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christa]'> had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Another instructive one.
Paul clearly states that the man of sin was at that time being restrained from his takeover of the then-erect Temple. The Thessalonians knew what was restraining him, and they were to expect that event to take place in their time when the Temple still stood and when it was God's house.

The Apostolic expectation of the parousia in their day is well documented in the pages of scripture... there are over 100 NT passages alone that testify to this.

Here's just a few:

"The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

"'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

"If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

“He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)

“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)

“The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)

“The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)

“Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

"...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)

“I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

“I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

“The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

How could they have been so wrong?

 

[Halbhh]

I'm interested in your thoughts to my reply to parousia70 above.

Yes, it seems we are reaching the same conclusion. It reminded me of what I had read a year or 2 back in 1 Samuel, where "he let none of Samuel's words fall to the ground." It's an intervention to make something happen (or else that could mean God prevented him from saying anything false by constraint, which seems more out-there, since, for example, we know an apostle can make a mistake (as Cephas in Galatians 2). It makes very good consistency with other scriptures that God would intervene at times to make things happen, as we know He often has in scripture. So I think you are likely right to think Peter went through this in order to learn something.

 

[droptozro]

I'm a former trinitarian, been biblical unitarian for 3+ years now.

Former futurist, but still studying full/partial preterism.

Tied into that subject is also the study of Torah keeping and what applies today to professing Christians. Also tied into Torah is the idea of using God's law in modern government which advocates against our current man made criminal justice system. Still studying that one but its been a while.

And since I'm quite convinced of partial preterism so far I am annihilationist.

I used to open air preach also until I started heavily questioning my own views and presuppositions about doctrines I used to hold to so tightly. Wanted to correct myself before I spoke about it on the street and witnessed. That's pretty controversial...

 

[parousia70]

*If* the future is not a created entity (i.e. it doesn’t exist, not even in the mind of God), God could still have easily made sure the situation with Peter took place as predicted to Peter. (I happen to believe it happened to humble Peter so that he would be better prepared for the ministry he was about to enter into) I actually think it would take a much more impressive God to use his resourcefulness to bring this “denial story” about rather than simply looking into a crystal ball, so to speak, and telling Peter what was going to happen. If I go to the movies with a friend and I’ve already seen the movie (but my friend doesn’t know this), I would look pretty impressive if I keep “predicting” what’s going to happen next but, in reality, it’s not impressive at all. God would have to know the heart of Peter quite intimately (i.e. his weaknesses) and the hearts of those around him at the time (i.e. their readiness to accuse). This doesn't seem that incredibly difficult for a God whose known our thoughts and motivations ever since birth. God would have to know that at least three people who were ready and willing to challenge Peter’s devotion, and God would have to make sure those three people crossed Peter’s path that night. As soon as the third person freely chose to challenge Peter, God could make the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow to drive his point home to Peter. You see, I’m not convinced that any of this requires a crystal ball kind of deal. Just great predictions by intimately knowing hearts and slight interference in someone’s mind to cross Peter’s path or make a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow.

Well, as I'm not dogmatic about it, I can understand how using that approach to validate your position would work just fine.

For me I still lean towards God existing outside of time and not constrained by it the way you seem to imply He is.

When Jesus stood in front of the Temple and said "not one stone will be left upon another that will not be thrown down" 40 years before that exact thing happened, again indicates to me that such an event was for ordained, not merely coaxed into happening.

Christianity has its foundations on the sure and certain word of prophesy, which proves its divine Origin.

The "I've secretly seen the movie so I can pull a fast one" analogy is a bit weak imo... omniscience is hardly a parlor trick.

 

[Shempster]

Personally, I have "0" controversial beliefs. But I have a ton of controversial suspicions.
In order to properly maintain a belief, you need concrete evidence that what you believe is true.
Unless you believe that your belief in said belief causes that belief to be true.

 

[Halbhh]

...
When Jesus stood in front of the Temple and said "not one stone will be left upon another that will not be thrown down" 40 years before that exact thing happened, again indicates to me that such an event was for ordained, not merely coaxed into happening.

Christianity has its foundations on the sure and certain word of prophesy, which proves its divine Origin.
...

Well, I think foreseeing a broader social movement resulting in a war, in this case simply the Romans crushing the Jewish rebellion that would eventually come, crushing it massively as Rome typically would, and the Jews already restless even during Christ's ministry....this kind of broader social result, a war, I think can be foreseen with omniscient knowledge of the present alone. Still leaving a real unpredictability of a single human heart.... This is consistent with seeing broader forces, using total knowledge. He could make us individually unpredictable, yet foresee such a war even without intervening to help cause it at all.

 

[surrender1]

Well, as I'm not dogmatic about it, I can understand how using that approach to validate your position would work just fine.

For me I still lean towards God existing outside of time and not constrained by it the way you seem to imply He is.

When Jesus stood in front of the Temple and said "not one stone will be left upon another that will not be thrown down" 40 years before that exact thing happened, again indicates to me that such an event was for ordained, not merely coaxed into happening.

Christianity has its foundations on the sure and certain word of prophesy, which proves its divine Origin.

The "I've secretly seen the movie so I can pull a fast one" analogy is a bit weak imo... omniscience is hardly a parlor trick.

I’m not sharing this to “validate my position.” As a matter of fact, my position had always been classical theism until someone asked me to prove biblically that time is an entity. I couldn’t. It’s not something that *can* be proven biblically. So, as a rational person, I gave that up and allowed room for other possibilities.

I would, too, “lean” that God exists outside of time if I could prove with confidence that time was a created entity, like gravity is for example. But even if time is not a created entity, there is no reason to subscribe to the idea that God is somehow “constrained” by it, as you submit. God is not “constrained” by existence (not created) or by love (not created); those are simply realities of which God is.

And I’m not saying, “God pulls a fast one”. No one thinks of it as “pulling a fast one.” I’m saying that Classical Theism subscribes to the idea that God can see the future *because* it is already a done deal and *that* is the very reason God can predict with accuracy and thus can tell us what is going to happen in the future. So they don’t think of it as some kind of “fast one”; they think of it as the future as already taking place in the mind of God and thus he can tell us what’s going to happen.

Christianity does not have its foundations on the sure and certain word of prophecy; Christianity has its foundations on the gospel of Christ Jesus, and that alone is sufficient.

 

[DerekJM]

I don't believe anyone goes to Hell. At least, not permanently.

Agree, one does their penance post-life, it is not absolute.