What is the truth?

[redblue22]

I can not say, I think it must be something like being completely convinced in heart, like a light being switched on and suddenly everything being turned on. The Bible says that if you believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins and rose again and confess with your mouth, you will be saved.

Believing in your heart is different from believing in your mind. There are many people who agree with Christianity academically. This is giving mental assent, but not believing in your heart.

Could you explain?

 

[bhsmte]

Could you explain?

I'm with you. I think the poster has things reversed.

 

[John 1720]

Throwing out one-liners to adress a two-pages-post is also not a good way to have a dialogue. If you have any specific problems with what I wrote, please point it out.

Perhaps the air needs to be cleared a bit here in order to have a friendly productive discussion. For the record my one-liner was not a response to your two page post but just a response to the fact that your tone and the content was a bit ad-hominem, especially with regard to your frustration that I was not following the terms you had layed out. Being a Christian forum you should expect that your terms and my terms for describing reality and truth are from very different perspectives. May I suggest that these two angles we are hitting on with respect to our perspective may cause some angular momentum, especially when we apply the rigor of our differing opinions. We may have to just deal with that and be patient with one another.

Now perhaps I did make some assumptions about the atheistic worldview and, in generalizing about the atheistic community, offended you as well. While I was agnostic at one point I don't believe I was ever an atheist. I have spoke with many atheists over the course of my lifetime but do not consider that I understand all things about their rational in fact in some points I find their belief system to be quite irrational but perhaps I misunderstand them. In most instances we just agree to disagree and that is okay, time may be the moderator between the rational and irrational. Let me point out, however, that your comment about Christians and Christianity also shows a predisposition and bias as to what Christians should be doing and I quote the integral exchange:

The Christian Worldview is that we are transformed and our eternal existence can take on quite different realities based on whether we are in Christ or are not.

We are told to preach the Good News that Jesus has delivered us from sin and death and that our debt has been paid in full by Him who has redeemed us. We are told to provide the message of saving grace both in season and out of season. We are taught to be life savers. One may ask, "Saved from what?" Answer: Saved from sin and death that not only eats away at the fabric of human life in this present reality but also in our everlasting reality. We are also taught to warn others of this.

I further explained that our present reality in this world is analogous between the two realities for our souls with regard to physical and spiritual death.

It is no different in educating others about spiritual death as it to educat

e people to physical death. Both are realities and the 2nd a Christian reality we trust to be true. I would far rather hear from a doctor that would tell me I have stage 4 cancer than one who would pretend everything is fine with my health if I really do have cancer. Especially if there is a remedy for that cancer we call sin.

To which you replied:

(Again, no offense meant, and the following "you" is meant to referring to Christians in general, not personal. Yes, this is your job. But you are very very bad at it.

The point being here Freodin is that this shows a clear misunderstanding of the Christian perspective of "what our job is" as mandated by Christ in our co-mission that He gave us. The word Co mission necessarily means joint mission. Christians believe we are on mission with Christ and have the power of the indwelling Spirit of God in unity with Him - We are in union with Him John 17:20 because we are in love with Jesus and the Father, His love being revealed by the cross and the resurrection.
So let me clear up the job description for every Christian, including myself. When Jesus told us to go to the ends of the earth with the message of the Gospel He did not say "Go and convince everyone that my Gospel is true in the context of their present belief system." He just told us to go into all the world and bring His unadulterated message. For all Christians this is our job description and mandate from the Lord. Since I am a Christian within the body of Christ you cannot separate me out from the set of "Christians in general" with respect to reference. Even if I happen to be the least of his servants I still belong to Jesus and therefore to God as His child no matter my physical age.

Your above statement implies our job is to convince you or others to the truth of God but the reality of His mandate is we are only supposed to repeat His message that through the cross He has conquered sin and death and in His resurrection the reality of everlasting life and the hope that permeates the human soul has been made visible in history. In a sense there is a model within the human framework of our nature that is analogous to the transmission of the heavenly Gospel. It is DNA. DNA hold the key to replicating life according to the constraints of human life as designed. Within this design we are all given the potential to reach what we were designed to be. DNA is primary but messenger RNA is secondarily as important. It's job is to replicate the DNA in messaging an exact replica. During cellular construction, if the message gets misconstrued, there is correction that can be made whereby the cell can be reproduced to its natural intended state. If all that fails you have a mutant cell, a potential cancer that can reproduce within the body and choke off your life. There are of course many illustrations we can use for messaging the Gospel but we believe the convincing part of the Gospel is not done by us but by God Himself who is part of every living person because He has made from every nation men and women that were designed to reflect His image. He has Himself stated He wrestles and reasons with all of us. In the Christian worldview Reason and understanding come from God.
In conclusion it is not my job or any Christians job to convince the Atheist but only to give testimont for the hope that is within me and without alteration provide the message of the Gospel - the rest is up to God for Jesus stated that it is God who provides the increase.

a

lso see Matt. 13:18–23 and Mark 4:13–20 
“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Companion verses that explain "our job" are
Mark 4:26-29 and
1 Corinthians 3:6

As a Christian I am only a messenger and no more but I pray that I will be a messenger that loves people the way God loves them and that I will grow in that blessing to become a blessing to others.

That's the misunderstanding.

Hopefully that satisfies the divergence so we can hit the reset button. If not perhaps email would be a better venue. We can make things much more succinct in that manner.

Perhaps we should also trim down and not try to boil the ocean. I think the main topic is my assertion that reality is derived from Truth and not the other way around. You also believe reality is singular and I believe that there are multiple realities, especially with regard to the human condition; both here and the here after. I stand behind my original premise, which is not only mine but has an historical precedent. Plato resoned the same argument when he stated, paraphrased, that God is Truth and the truth divine. So that hypothesis, which I share, is indeed older than my assertion and older than Christianity itself. I define reality as a state of being that is dependent upon the truth. The word 'Reality or Realities" I would define as:
The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence. It is independent of thought or language; the state of one's existence.
Perhaps we need to agree on the definition so we are speaking about the same thing.
What therefore is your definition of Reality?
Regards, Patrick​

 

[possibletarian]

Believing in your heart is different from believing in your mind. There are many people who agree with Christianity academically. This is giving mental assent, but not believing in your heart.

What is 'believing in your heart' is it really believing strongly and fully? If so how could you believe in your head but not in your heart ?

Isn't believing in your heart is just and expression used for a sense of really believing something is true, even though you may have doubts? otherwise why make the distinction surely we don't really believe with our hearts (as in the organ) ?

If you have doubts, it's probably for a good reason.

P

 

[possibletarian]

Perhaps the air needs to be cleared a bit here in order to have a friendly productive discussion. For the record my one-liner was not a response to your two page post but just a response to the fact that your tone and the content was a bit ad-hominem, especially with regard to your frustration that I was not following the terms you had layed out. Being a Christian forum you should expect that your terms and my terms for describing reality and truth are from very different perspectives. May I suggest that these two angles we are hitting on with respect to our perspective may cause some angular momentum, especially when we apply the rigor of our differing opinions. We may have to just deal with that and be patient with one another.

Now perhaps I did make some assumptions about the atheistic worldview and, in generalizing about the atheistic community, offended you as well. While I was agnostic at one point I don't believe I was ever an atheist. I have spoke with many atheists over the course of my lifetime but do not consider that I understand all things about their rational in fact in some points I find their belief system to be quite irrational but perhaps I misunderstand them. In most instances we just agree to disagree and that is okay, time may be the moderator between the rational and irrational. Let me point out, however, that your comment about Christians and Christianity also shows a predisposition and bias as to what Christians should be doing and I quote the integral exchange:

I further explained that our present reality in this world is analogous between the two realities for our souls with regard to physical and spiritual death.

To which you replied:

​

The point being here Freodin is that this shows a clear misunderstanding of the Christian perspective of "what our job is" as mandated by Christ in our co-mission that He gave us. The word Co mission necessarily means joint mission. Christians believe we are on mission with Christ and have the power of the indwelling Spirit of God in unity with Him - We are in union with Him John 17:20 because we are in love with Jesus and the Father, His love being revealed by the cross and the resurrection.
So let me clear up the job description for every Christian, including myself. When Jesus told us to go to the ends of the earth with the message of the Gospel He did not say "Go and convince everyone that my Gospel is true in the context of their present belief system." He just told us to go into all the world and bring His unadulterated message. For all Christians this is our job description and mandate from the Lord. Since I am a Christian within the body of Christ you cannot separate me out from the set of "Christians in general" with respect to reference. Even if I happen to be the least of his servants I still belong to Jesus and therefore to God as His child no matter my physical age.

Your above statement implies our job is to convince you or others to the truth of God but the reality of His mandate is we are only supposed to repeat His message that through the cross He has conquered sin and death and in His resurrection the reality of everlasting life and the hope that permeates the human soul has been made visible in history. In a sense there is a model within the human framework of our nature that is analogous to the transmission of the heavenly Gospel. It is DNA. DNA hold the key to replicating life according to the constraints of human life as designed. Within this design we are all given the potential to reach what we were designed to be. DNA is primary but messenger RNA is secondarily as important. It's job is to replicate the DNA in messaging an exact replica. During cellular construction, if the message gets misconstrued, there is correction that can be made whereby the cell can be reproduced to its natural intended state. If all that fails you have a mutant cell, a potential cancer that can reproduce within the body and choke off your life. There are of course many illustrations we can use for messaging the Gospel but we believe the convincing part of the Gospel is not done by us but by God Himself who is part of every living person because He has made from every nation men and women that were designed to reflect His image. He has Himself stated He wrestles and reasons with all of us. In the Christian worldview Reason and understanding come from God.
In conclusion it is not my job or any Christians job to convince the Atheist but only to give testimont for the hope that is within me and without alteration provide the message of the Gospel - the rest is up to God for Jesus stated that it is God who provides the increase.

Companion verses that explain "our job" are
Mark 4:26-29 and
1 Corinthians 3:6

As a Christian I am only a messenger and no more but I pray that I will be a messenger that loves people the way God loves them and that I will grow in that blessing to become a blessing to others.

That's the misunderstanding.

Hopefully that satisfies the divergence so we can hit the reset button. If not perhaps email would be a better venue. We can make things much more succinct in that manner.

Perhaps we should also trim down and not try to boil the ocean. I think the main topic is my assertion that reality is derived from Truth and not the other way around. You also believe reality is singular and I believe that there are multiple realities, especially with regard to the human condition; both here and the here after. I stand behind my original premise, which is not only mine but has an historical precedent. Plato resoned the same argument when he stated, paraphrased, that God is Truth and the truth divine. So that hypothesis, which I share, is indeed older than my assertion and older than Christianity itself. I define reality as a state of being that is dependent upon the truth. The word 'Reality or Realities" I would define as:
The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence. It is independent of thought or language; the state of one's existence.
Perhaps we need to agree on the definition so we are speaking about the same thing.
What therefore is your definition of Reality?
Regards, Patrick​

Hi Patrick,

I would agree with you, so far as I am am able to discern what a Christians commission is that beyond spreading the Gospel, a respectable life, and to speak up against injustice you have no duty.

Neither do I believe you have a duty (biblically) to provide evidence that what you say is true or provable, it either speaks to the heart of a person, or it does not, in that sense believing it is true from a Christian's perspective is enough.

The problem though for a non believer/seeker is not so much the message, but why do you believe what you do. I know that to a Christian the bible is the word of God, but to someone who is not it is just a book amongst other books that make similar fantastic claims.

So why do you believe the Bible ? why is it true to you ?

 

[John 1720]

SIDEBARS ENERGY AND MATTER CANNOT BE DESTROYED BUT THEY ONLY TRANSFORM IN LIGHT OF YOUR EXAMPLE OF THE PIANO "THE DESTRUCTION OF THE PIANO"

What is salvation like for those who don't have an emotional experience, sensation, or hears or sees Christ? How does one who's never had such an experience know they are saved?

Matthew 7:16-20
2 Corinthians 13:4-5
There must be evidence that the Holy Spirit is living in you

Romans 8 is a great place to go
Free from Indwelling Sin
1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Sonship Through the Spirit - debtors to the Holy Spirit - the presence of God that indwells us John 15:4-12

Romans 8:12-17 finishes the context
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
If we are indeed His then we will do the deeds of Christ, which did not end in AD30 but have like the multiplicatin of the loaves and fishes He is in pieces to the last 70 or more generations. He walks the earth fulfilling His great mission by co-missioning us to be on mission with Him until that mission is over and He returns to claim His Church - all who believe in Him and follow His abiding Spirit. It is true that we do not know the day nor the hour but we do believe the following statement by Jesus is true.
Matthew 24:14
“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The end being both the end of the Gospel Age of the Good News of God's mercy through Christ our Lord. This is what is in conjunction with His promised 2nd return, which we as Christians look for as our salvation draws nearer and nearer; for just as we experience a transformation of our hearts while we abide on earth and abide in the heart of the Savior, we know our full transformation in Christ awaits us in the 2nd coming of the Son of Man and Son of God, the resurrected Christ. Whether I am dead or alive I know I will be fully alive in Him and just as He was bodily raised in glory never to die again so too I shall share His glory and resurrection. This is not just a postulate for me but a truth which I know will be a reality for His abiding Spirit testifies I am His and He is mine - nothing can seperate me from the love of Christ.

The finale of Romans 8, God’s Everlasting Love, says it better than I could. Romans 8:31-39
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:

• “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now that is my definition of true treasure and the ultimate reality.

In Christ, Patrick

 

[John 1720]

SIDEBARS ENERGY AND MATTER CANNOT BE DESTROYED BUT THEY ONLY TRANSFORM IN LIGHT OF YOUR EXAMPLE OF THE PIANO "THE DESTRUCTION OF THE PIANO"

In the atheist worldview when a person draws his last breath their time is up and it really is on to oblivion and non-existence. They believe that is the final reality and hence disregard the truth before them. Truth be told It is a principle which even contradicts the naturals laws of Physics which states that “Energy can neither be created nor destroyed rather it can only be transformed from one form to another.”

This is quite a misrepresentation of what "atheists" believe, but again, I'd say this is irrelevant for this topic at hand. Basically it does nothing but state: "What you believe is wrong... even if I do not really understand what you believe." Condescending. Please stop that.

Just as a little hint about this "oblivion and non-existence" and the truth of "transformation":
Take a piano. Smash it with a slegdehammer. Burn the wood and the ivory, melt the metal. Now play the piano.

Okay, I'll defer to your example Freodin and will not try to speak for atheists if you will also not speak for Christians. I have no desire to offend you and believe you had no desire to offend me. However, each of us can easily do that without trying very hard so we'll have to learn to forgive one another when we do so inadvertently.

The smashed piano, however is not really a transformation it is merely broken parts of the same material that was formerly a piano. Smash and break as you will with enough effort the object can be restored. It may take herculean skill and a divine intellect but it is not impossible. That would especially be true with respect to God; whom we believe made the entire universe, healed the infirm and raised the dead to life, with even His enemies affirming He did so.

Even if that piano was transformed to kinetic energy by turning it into a bonfire it is possible to transform energy into matter again as simply as we can mass produce the same item on a 3D printer. I'm not proposing we know how to do that yet but certainly there is nothing in science that states that would be impossible. If it is not impossible then it is plausible. If stars can collapse under the weight of gravity and either become unstable and explode or turn into black holes. Their energies can also be redistributed to create new stars and galaxies, as we see with quasars. The point was not to state what is presently possible but what is possible, even if we currently do not have the technology to do so. A few centuries back we couldn't fly either and a lunar landing or planetary landing were though impossible and scoffed at. That is no longer true.
Regards, Patrick

 

[Freodin]

I think the main topic is my assertion that reality is derived from Truth and not the other way around. You also believe reality is singular and I believe that there are multiple realities, especially with regard to the human condition; both here and the here after. I stand behind my original premise, which is not only mine but has an historical precedent. Plato resoned the same argument when he stated, paraphrased, that God is Truth and the truth divine. So that hypothesis, which I share, is indeed older than my assertion and older than Christianity itself.

Interesting. My hypothesis is also quite old, based on Plato, Aristoteles and some more modern folk like Thomas Aquinas. It is commonly known in Philosophy as the "Correspondence Theory of Truth". It does also take some elements from the Coherence Theory of Truth.

I define reality as a state of being that is dependent upon the truth. The word 'Reality or Realities" I would define as:

The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence. It is independent of thought or language; the state of one's existence.
Perhaps we need to agree on the definition so we are speaking about the same thing.
What therefore is your definition of Reality?
Regards, Patrick​

I agree with part of your definition. It is - not surprisingly - very similar to the definitions of "reality" that I have already, repeatedly, posted.

Like
"[The only perfect representation of an object is the object itself.] The sum of all these [perfect representations, of the] objects themselves: that is reality."

I have two problems with your definition though:
1. Multiple realities.
If several different "objects" are "actual" or "in objective existence"... the sum of these objects is also "actual" or "in objective existence".
The "reality" of one of these objects does not negate the "reality" of the other objects.
Therefore, every of these "realities" includes the "realities" of every other object.

Thus there is only one reality. One that includes every object that is "actual" or "in objective existence".

2. The term "true".
My main problem with your definition... it is lacking, because it includes the second term that we are talking about, and that you didn't define as yet.

So what does it mean to be "true" in objective existence? How do you define "truth"?

To repeat, I define "truth" as an abstraction that correctly corresponds to reality, or "objective existence". In the words of Thomas Aquinas: "A judgment is said to be true when it conforms to the external reality."

In many ways the terms "truth" and "reality" are used interchangable. I mentioned that several times before, and for that reason gave my definitions and asked you to present yours. In Plato's writings, there is also the various forms of "being" and "existence"... wonderfully presented in the German dichotomy of "das Seiende" and "das Sein". So I don't think an aphorism of three words can be used as a complete philosophical explanation. ("Plato said it, therefore it is so!" )

So why do I use these terms in the way that I do? Mostly for linguistic reasons.
"Reality" is based on the latin "res" - the thing, the object. This isn't necessarily meant in a materialistic way. It can be used for anything... any thing... and culminates ultimately in "every thing".
"Truth", as well as the German "Wahrheit" are both derived from old indoeuropean words denotating trust or reliability.

So the one term described "objective existing things", the other our (trusting) judgement about them.

 

[Freodin]

SIDEBARS ENERGY AND MATTER CANNOT BE DESTROYED BUT THEY ONLY TRANSFORM IN LIGHT OF YOUR EXAMPLE OF THE PIANO "THE DESTRUCTION OF THE PIANO"



Okay, I'll defer to your example Freodin and will not try to speak for atheists if you will also not speak for Christians.

I never stated or implied anything here about what Christians say their beliefs are or what their positions are... only how they are received by (some) non-christians. I hope you realize that.

I have no desire to offend you and believe you had no desire to offend me. However, each of us can easily do that without trying very hard so we'll have to learn to forgive one another when we do so inadvertently.

The difference between understanding and acceptance. You can reject my position as much as you like... as long as you understand it, I am perfectly fine with it.

The smashed piano, however is not really a transformation it is merely broken parts of the same material that was formerly a piano. Smash and break as you will with enough effort the object can be restored. It may take herculean skill and a divine intellect but it is not impossible. That would especially be true with respect to God; whom we believe made the entire universe, healed the infirm and raised the dead to life, with even His enemies affirming He did so.

Even if that piano was transformed to kinetic energy by turning it into a bonfire it is possible to transform energy into matter again as simply as we can mass produce the same item on a 3D printer. I'm not proposing we know how to do that yet but certainly there is nothing in science that states that would be impossible. If it is not impossible then it is plausible. If stars can collapse under the weight of gravity and either become unstable and explode or turn into black holes. Their energies can also be redistributed to create new stars and galaxies, as we see with quasars. The point was not to state what is presently possible but what is possible, even if we currently do not have the technology to do so. A few centuries back we couldn't fly either and a lunar landing or planetary landing were though impossible and scoffed at. That is no longer true.

Regards, Patrick

Consider what you wrote here very carefully.
You take something and transform it (yes, changing the form, composition, arrangement of something is called a "transformation"). Then you take this transformed object, and "restore" it - that is, transform it back to its original from. Thus, in effect, you have a null-transformation.
This isn't what we are talking about. And this isn't what this example was about.

You stated that atheists believe that after death there is "oblivion and non-existence."
But this doesn't refer to matter or energy... it refers to the form. The smashed piano cannot be played anymore. Nothing in the conservation of energy contradicts that. The chance of building a new piano doesn't contradict that.

And - that shouldn't surprise you - atheists don't believe that there is a deity who with put them together again.

You claimed that "[this] is a principle which even contradicts the naturals laws of Physics which states that “Energy can neither be created nor destroyed rather it can only be transformed from one form to another."

It does not contradict this principle. Atheist think that they will be transformed into another form that is no longer recognizable as a conscious ego... thus "they" will cease to exist, just as the piano ceased to exist.

Did you understand that?

 

[John 1720]

Hi Patrick,

I would agree with you, so far as I am am able to discern what a Christians commission is that beyond spreading the Gospel, a respectable life, and to speak up against injustice you have no duty.

Neither do I believe you have a duty (biblically) to provide evidence that what you say is true or provable, it either speaks to the heart of a person, or it does not, in that sense believing it is true from a Christian's perspective is enough.

The problem though for a non believer/seeker is not so much the message, but why do you believe what you do. I know that to a Christian the bible is the word of God, but to someone who is not it is just a book amongst other books that make similar fantastic claims.

So why do you believe the Bible ? why is it true to you ?

Hi Possibletarian,
First thank you for your message, as I am not always sure I am making my thoughts clear and appreciate when I am told what I am stating is reasonable.
Basically what makes me believe in the Bible is according to similar standards that open my belief system to include things in the scientific domain as well as the belief that my wife, children and grandkids love me. With physical things we have learned to test things in laboratories to gain empirical proofs. Even with laboratory experiments and postulates, that became theories, theories that became applications we know our science is inexact. Newtonian Physics was found to hold incomplete truths and gave way to Einsteins theory of relativity, which has since been applied but that is not the end of discovering the hidden truths integrated into nature. I'd like to think most everyone believes in love and it would make me sad to think the human race is falling away from that belief and the love of many might grow cold because iniquity abounds. Hopefully you are still with me when it comes to believing love truly exists among humankind though. With respect to love, we cannot make a laboratory experiment to prove its existence but we can see it evidences. I certainly have seen love that puts others above themselves. I see that in the mature love from my wife and I see it in my five children (the youngest now being 21). I will say that for my grandchildren the maturity of love is a work in progress but nevertheless I see such love in them and their love is a beautiful jewel to me, even if it is still a diamond in the rough. I see the love in them for what is will be also, not just what is is now, and what it was previously. In a way my belief system is built on the same 2 examples I discussed above, although the 2nd example hold for more sway. That is because intellectually I only require a reasoned faith. From my intellect I can build upon the truths I see apparent in my belief system as I study them and begin to comprehend faith in its journey. It is dynamic and not static. I have read the Bible dozens of times over and still find things within those covers that I never saw before. We are taught the Word is living and pierces our thoughts and I have found that to be true the more deeply I go.

• Hebrews 4:1-2 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

However, I see from my own heart how the love of God is transforming my heart as it calls me to trust in God more and more and step out on faith. One verse of Amazing Grace is

• Through many dangers, toils, and snares,
• I have already come;
• 'His grace has brought me safe thus far,
• And grace will lead me home.

My faith started out as a small mustard seed. I repented that my ways and self righteousness would lead to anything lasting. I no longer was happy in myself with the praises of people, whether it was mere flattery to influence me or said with genuine affection. I learned that people who really loved me would tell me the truth in my failures and successes. I had people tell me about God, not just Christians but Buddhists and Hindu's as well. Christianity made more sense but an example of Christian love was what brought me to the place of decision as to whether I would become a follower of Christ or not. The first step I took was scary to me. In recognizing Christ as the way, the truth and the life and putting my life into His hands, that loved me enough to take the nails of my sins, I sensed that it would change me and how others would view me. In a sense it was like being ready to die to my former self and to be transformed by the love of Christ that I saw as good and wanting to embrace. But it was unchartered waters and there was a cost but whatever the cost was it did not compare to my gain as I soon learned. God's love nurtured me and brought me through all my concerns like a butterfly takes its wings. Isaiah 49 taught me that God would be with me in everything I encountered and that His love for me was inscribed upon His crucified body

• Can a woman forget her nursing child, and not have compassion on the son of her womb? Surely they may forget, Yet I will not forget you. See, I have inscribed you upon My hands and your walls are continually before Me.

But let me get back to my above examples that I used for my standards of belief rather than my conversion experience. After I left the military I studied Electrical Engineering and Computer Science in College. As I matriculated I trusted in what I was told about physics and chemistry and mathematics, as well as what I learned in mechanical, electrical and software engineering because I believed the application were historical and accurate. They had been tried and tested and shown to be viable. I didn't know every nook and cranny of the sciences I studied but I knew them to be reasonable and useful for my advancing as an engineer. Science has progressed in understanding nature's truths and still continues to do so and so applications and evidences of these truths, although incomplete, continue to be beneficial.
In the same manner I was made aware of prophecies in the Bible and knowledge about the historical Christ that I could not ignore. When I began to investigate Him it was with a critical eye but His Words were not only beautiful they caused my understanding to flourish that Jesus was truly the Christ that was prophesied in the Jewish literature of the Old Testament. One was written 1000 years before the crucifixion by David, several centuries before it was ever invented and the details were even known. Not only did I learn this was exactly what would occur during a Roman crucifixion but that it exactly follows the Gospel writers in the unique experience Jesus suffered. Crucifixion is where we get the words crucible and excruciating.
How did crucifixion kill?

• Psalms 22:13-18 They gape at Me with their mouths, like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet. I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.

Remember in the Gospel accounts Jesus cried out, "My God, My God why has Thou forsaken Me?", which was the 1st line of Psalms 22:1 this representing the point whereas Paul expresses "He who knew no sin became sin for us". Jesus also stated "I thirst" which was absolutely part of the crucifixion experience. When they broke the legs of the others but saw that Jesus was already dead they pierced His side with a spear and both water and blood pour out of Him. A postmortem of a crucifixion victim would surely have shown the signs of congestive heart failure with water fluids mixed with the blood. He would have necessarily have died before the two criminals who were crucified with Him because of the severe flogging He received and falling with the cross in His weakened state. This would have been because He would not have been able to push Himself up to draw breath in order to survive as long as the other two. Take into account the mocking that His garments were divided by the Roman soldiers, the dogs that were historically part of the normal crucifixion scene. The fact that it was implied that Christ was buried twice. The Romans would have tossed the body in a common grave right after the three expired, which would have been minutes after they broke the legs of the others. There is ample historical evidence of dogs eating the bodies out of the ditch He would have been thrown into but Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man, requested the body of Pilate and buried Him in His new Garden tomb, which was hewn out of solid rock. It was attested to that Jesus was crucified at Golgotha, the place of the skull - this too is visibly seen just outside the city gates and just a quarter to 1/2 mile walk from the Garden tomb; which thanks to 19th century archeolgy has been found.
The Garden Tomb - Wikipedia
A better picture of Golgotha - the place of the skull, can be seen here. I have a picture from the 19th century before some of the features eroded probably due to the construction of the bus depot as well.

• golgotha - Bing images

The other prophecy is of course Isaiah 53, a messianic prophecy of the Christ that was written a full 700 years before His death and resurrection.

• BLB: NKJV

There is much more but these are two I found very convincing that the Biblical accounts were correct.

The other thing that convinced me was seeing the transformation in people that had truly changed. One of my direct reports in the military told me he had previously been paralyzed in a car accident but his sister, who was a Christian, brought him to a healing service and he was able to walk. That is not to say their are not counterfeit miracles but just like counterfeit money, the counterfeits exist because real money exists. Later I would see miracles of healing firsthand in the Name of Jesus and I would pray for people with others, as well as alone, in His Name as see healing people healed. St. Augustine stated that in order to truly know Him you must first believe. I started with a reasonable belief but now possess a supernatural belief in Christ. My faith becomes more unshakeable as I follow Jesus on my journey of faith. My love for others has grown as well as my love for Christ. It is a real relationship that I have nd not some figment of imagination. Other Christians would say the same thing. He is our treasure and I am overwhelmed by His love and Grace He has poured out upon my life. Yes I'm forever a debtor to His sacrifice of love for me but being in debt has never been so enriching. I'd follow Him to the ends of the earth and already have. My desire is to see all peoples impacted by the love of God and can't wait to get back there.

In Christ, Patrick
John 17:20

PS I cannot read the prayer of Jesus without feeling His love for all of us. I would encourage you to read it
John 17 the 20th verse is for us who believe in the words of His Apostles and Disciples. We find their words in the New Testament.

 

[John 1720]

I never stated or implied anything here about what Christians say their beliefs are or what their positions are... only how they are received by (some) non-christians. I hope you realize that.

Time to move on.

The difference between understanding and acceptance. You can reject my position as much as you like... as long as you understand it, I am perfectly fine with it.

The thing is I believe I am understanding what you are trying to say and stating it doesn't add up.

Consider what you wrote here very carefully.
You take something and transform it (yes, changing the form, composition, arrangement of something is called a "transformation"). Then you take this transformed object, and "restore" it - that is, transform it back to its original from. Thus, in effect, you have a null-transformation.
This isn't what we are talking about. And this isn't what this example was about.

You stated that atheists believe that after death there is "oblivion and non-existence."
But this doesn't refer to matter or energy... it refers to the form. The smashed piano cannot be played anymore. Nothing in the conservation of energy contradicts that. The chance of building a new piano doesn't contradict that.

And - that shouldn't surprise you - atheists don't believe that there is a deity who with put them together again.

You claimed that "[this] is a principle which even contradicts the naturals laws of Physics which states that “Energy can neither be created nor destroyed rather it can only be transformed from one form to another."

It does not contradict this principle. Atheist think that they will be transformed into another form that is no longer recognizable as a conscious ego... thus "they" will cease to exist, just as the piano ceased to exist.

Did you understand that?

Hi Freodin,
Yes, I am understanding you are stating your belief in the scientific principle but rejecting that which I would call "the soul" and which I believe continues to exist after bodily death. But I also believe you are still not understanding my point and so, once again, we appear to be missing each other. I believe you miss the points of reference I give because you may have an incomplete understanding of Christian theology. So let me make another attempt to expand on my position.

It is imperative to understand that Christians believe in a tripartite existence of mankind - one can go with humankind if they prefer. I do have a sense you may understand our definition of soul, which you reject.
Tripartite (theology) - Wikipedia
So as you can see Christians believe we are made up of body, soul and spirit.

I was juxtaposing our belief in the eternal soul and spirit of man with the conservation of matter and energy. It was meant as an analogy to the Christian viewpoint but you must understand the Christian belief system to find it a reasonable construct.

Again let me address your piano analogy as improper. It is clear there are two realities of state in my example. Matter and energy. Matter can be expressed as energy, a separate state from matter, and vice versa. E= MC^2
Simply breaking up parts is not a true transformation, it is what I would call decomposition of parts. In mathematics we study integration by parts. I have transformed the parts by breaking them with a sledgehammer I have only broken the parts. If I was a master carpenter craftsmen that God is I might find a way to reconstruct them. I don't want to be too picky because, as I mentioned, if you burned the piano you would have transformed its mass into kinetic energy. That said I do understand your viewpoint.

If you believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God who can create existence from non-existent (which by the principle of universal expansion happens to be exactly what is happening) then you have you would have no problem with God being able to transform us from one form of existence or reality to another. I realize you do not accept that and that is okay. That is not to say my viewpoint is not reasonable since these thing happen in space/time or if you prefer time and space. I believe God created the universe ex-nihlo and some scientists are look for what came first the chicken or the egg and have gone down many quantum rabbit holes to bolster their opinions. If people desire to factor out God they certainly will go far and wide to do so. That however doesn't eliminate God as the explanation.
We Christians believe in body, soul and spirit. The soul is the rational expression of a person. We believe life is more than the body and is connected to the rational mind of God which allows us to reason and create and differentiate just as God does, for we, unlike the beasts, were all made in the image of God.
Soul - Wikipedia

The body is simply the corporal component and physical manifestation of being. In its present fallen state it will certainly die. It is only a matter of time - no pun intended. The soul however is eternal and we are taught that God strives with the human soul while the body lives in the time God allots for each one of us. We are told that that our mortal bodies shall be transformed into a body that is Christlike at the resurrection. We will not have the body of a man after the 1st Adam but the glorified body of the Son of Man, which Paul calls the 2nd Adam, for we will be transformed to a new man, not by evolution, but by the spiritual regeneration which is to take place by the 2nd coming of Christ.

• 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
• 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
• And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

This is not a new theological concept but one you may have sung in German Christmas Carols at one point. (perhaps not)

1. Hark! The Herald Angels sing,
"Glory to the new-born King;
Peace on earth, and mercy mild,
God and sinners reconciled!"
Joyful, all ye nations, rise.
Join the triumph of the skies.
With th' Angelic Hosts proclaim,
"Christ is born in Bethlehem!"1
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new-born King."

2. Christ, by highest heaven adored,
Christ, the everlasting lord
Late in time behold Him come,
Off-spring of a2 Virgin's womb3
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,
Hail, the incarnate deity
Pleased as Man with men to dwell,4
Jesus, our Emmanuel.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the New-born king!"
3. Hail the heav'n-born Prince of Peace,5
Hail, the Sun6 of Righteousness
Light and life to all He brings,
Risen with healing in His Wings.
Now He lays His Glory by,7
Born that man no more may die
Born to raise the sons of earth,
Born to give them second birth.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the New-born king!"

4.
Come, Desire of nations come,
Fix in us Thy humble home;
Oh, to all Thyself impart,
Formed in each believing heart!
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new-born king;
Peace on earth and mercy mild,
God and sinners reconciled!"
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the New-born king!"
5.
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface,
Stamp Thine image in its place:
Second Adam from above,
Reinstate us in Thy love.
Let us Thee, though lost, regain,
Thee, the Life, the inner man:
O, to all Thyself impart,
Formed in each believing heart.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the New-born king!"
[/QUOTE[
The Spirit
Holy Spirit in Christianity - Wikipedia
The Wiki article does not go into the Spirit of man, which is really the spirit of disobedience at work since the fall of Adam. But it is recorded in the New Testament among Jesus' own disciples.

• Luke 9:54-55 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.
• Matthew 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
• Mark 8:33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

What transforms us from the fallen man to the risen man is the Spirit of Christ which indwells us. Although the body dies we will gain a new body because the Christian already has His Spirit.

The soul is therefore has the potential to be subject to 2 realities. One with Christ and one without. The soul can be lost and found in our present reality or with respect to the everlasting the soul can either be lost forever or with Christ forever.
The Christian view is that we all have a common body, derived from the DNA of our common Homo Sapien Ancestor, We all have a reasoning soul which beyond brain matter is our record in time by which we shall be judged by. If finite human being can detect the original record in heavens of the initial expanding universe its not a stretch to think like Jesus says:

• Mark 4:22 “For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light.
• Matthew 10:26 Luke 12:2

In conclusion what I am stating is that we have examples in scientific theory of transformation, of an eternal record stamped in space/time, of created existence ex-nihlo.
If the physical world has examples of these things then why would it be unreasonable to think God cannot raise the dead, transform our mortal bodies into immortal after the image of His Son, judge souls according to the record of our soul? Many people with near death experiences have seen their lives flash before their eyes. I believe these are reasonable beliefs. I actually think it is harder to have the faith of an atheist then it is to believe in Christ, who said '

• Matthew 16:26 “For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

There are two choices when it comes to Christ. You can either believe He was a deranged madman and meglomaniac who claimed He was the Son of God.
or
You can believe that He was who He said He was and decide whether to follow Him or not.

In Christ, Patrick

 

[John 1720]

I can not say, I think it must be something like being completely convinced in heart, like a light being switched on and suddenly everything being turned on. The Bible says that if you believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins and rose again and confess with your mouth, you will be saved.

Believing in your heart is different from believing in your mind. There are many people who agree with Christianity academically. This is giving mental assent, but not believing in your heart.

I totally agree with you Galatea and, more importantly, the Bible agrees with you as well! You make an excellent point. Thank you!
Mark 12:28-34
(Matt. 22:34–40; Luke 10:25–28 )
Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?”

Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”
But after that no one dared question Him.

The Lord definitely makes a distinction separating the intents of the heart from the mind and the scribe calls the two loving Him with all our hearts and with all our understanding.

The mind and intellect is with all our understanding and we are to pursue God and desire to understand Him. However, that is not enough; for it is in our heart by which we set our affections on Him. It is also the heart which the Lord states first in the order of priority. One can understand God and still reject Him, disobey Him, and not do His will. Just as in a marriage the heart is primary to the love between husband and wife, so too is the heart primary to our faithfulness to the Lord and the Father's will.

• Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
• Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
• Mat 7:24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
• Mat 7:26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
• Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant Mark 24:45-51 and (Luke 12:41–48 )

• “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.

That said we need to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.

May God bless you, Patrick

 

[John 1720]

Interesting. My hypothesis is also quite old, based on Plato, Aristoteles and some more modern folk like Thomas Aquinas. It is commonly known in Philosophy as the "Correspondence Theory of Truth". It does also take some elements from the Coherence Theory of Truth.


I agree with part of your definition. It is - not surprisingly - very similar to the definitions of "reality" that I have already, repeatedly, posted.

Like
"[The only perfect representation of an object is the object itself.] The sum of all these [perfect representations, of the] objects themselves: that is reality."

I have two problems with your definition though:
1. Multiple realities.
If several different "objects" are "actual" or "in objective existence"... the sum of these objects is also "actual" or "in objective existence".
The "reality" of one of these objects does not negate the "reality" of the other objects.
Therefore, every of these "realities" includes the "realities" of every other object.

Thus there is only one reality. One that includes every object that is "actual" or "in objective existence".

2. The term "true".
My main problem with your definition... it is lacking, because it includes the second term that we are talking about, and that you didn't define as yet.

So what does it mean to be "true" in objective existence? How do you define "truth"?

To repeat, I define "truth" as an abstraction that correctly corresponds to reality, or "objective existence". In the words of Thomas Aquinas: "A judgment is said to be true when it conforms to the external reality."

In many ways the terms "truth" and "reality" are used interchangable. I mentioned that several times before, and for that reason gave my definitions and asked you to present yours. In Plato's writings, there is also the various forms of "being" and "existence"... wonderfully presented in the German dichotomy of "das Seiende" and "das Sein". So I don't think an aphorism of three words can be used as a complete philosophical explanation. ("Plato said it, therefore it is so!" )

So why do I use these terms in the way that I do? Mostly for linguistic reasons.
"Reality" is based on the latin "res" - the thing, the object. This isn't necessarily meant in a materialistic way. It can be used for anything... any thing... and culminates ultimately in "every thing".
"Truth", as well as the German "Wahrheit" are both derived from old indoeuropean words denotating trust or reliability.

So the one term described "objective existing things", the other our (trusting) judgement about them.

Perhaps there is room for some semantical interpretation, If one thinks of the reality of God as the primary reality then I could see your point but only if there was no creation. I don't though because with creation God has provided all of with realities, both in this world and in the world to come. Our reality may differ in the Light of God's Truth and as to whether we accept His truths in this world. There certainly are consequential realities/states of being based on whether we are living in the truth or not in this world. The light of Truth is far dimmer in this temporal reality and that is on purpose. Still the truth is active and operative in our world and we see there is eventually a price to pay for wickedness. In America we have a saying that every dog has its day sooner or later you reap what you sow. However, in the final judgment there will be no hiding place from the Truth. We have the images God's light will see through all the hidden lies that covered up by the world. It is the realization of the Truth that primarily causes our final reality and whether we wake to our eternal shame or our eternal joy in Christ.

• Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life. Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
• 1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

I think we can agree to disagree on whether reality is primary or whether Truth is primary. Just so we are clear, however, my context is with respect to both God and His creation. I'm not trying to split hairs but my context is within the provision that both you and I exist - even if our existence is dependent upon God. He has willed me to exist and for you to exist as well. I believe our existence has a purpose. This of course is from a Theist position.
Cheers, Patrick

 

[Galatea]

Could you explain?

I would like to cite Charles and John Wesley who were ordained ministers, missionaries, had started a Bible group at Oxford. They sought to study the Bible and live godly lives- yet they were not converted. They agreed with Christianity, on an academic sense, but had not yet believed in their hearts. After a mission trip to Georgia, seeking to convert the Indians, John Wesley said "who will convert me?"

Charles was saved first, and then John. John famously wrote that his heart was "strangely warmed". Salvation is an experience, it is believing in your heart, what you know intellectually to be true.

Let's say you have a Father. Your father tells you that he loves you, and that he is coming to see you one day and that he will help you become a good person. You read his letters, you believe what he says- but he left before you were born, so even though you believe intellectually what he says is true- you have not experienced being in his presence. Then one day, you ask him to come to you. He does, and you experience what being with him is like. That is believing in your heart as well as believing in your mind.

Christianity is wonderful, it does things counter to our way of thinking. Very often, people are saved with little to no head knowledge at all. Because they believe in their hearts. The head knowledge comes later, sometimes. For example, no one has to know a thing about the virgin birth in order to be saved.

I have heard this quote "Human knowledge has to be known in order to be loved. Divine knowledge has to be loved in order to be known."

Children very often are saved, and they may know not very much about theology at all. After all, Jesus said we had to have faith as children in order to be saved. I don't mean to stay ignorant, but what is necessary to salvation is believing in the heart.

 

[Galatea]

What is 'believing in your heart' is it really believing strongly and fully? If so how could you believe in your head but not in your heart ?

Isn't believing in your heart is just and expression used for a sense of really believing something is true, even though you may have doubts? otherwise why make the distinction surely we don't really believe with our hearts (as in the organ) ?

If you have doubts, it's probably for a good reason.

P

Oh, I don't mean I don't have doubts from time to time about things, but I have settled the destination of my soul a long time ago, and have no doubts about it. I went through a period of doubting, and came out the other side with my faith stronger than ever. I was actually closer to God after my period of doubt than at any other time in my life- even closer than after first getting saved.

It is hard for me to really explain what believing in the heart is. It is being completely convinced, completely persuaded, but not only that. It is meeting Jesus and having a relationship with Him. I mean, it is knowing He is real, and not an abstract construct. He is a real person. He doesn't speak to me audibly of course, I don't have visions or hallucinations.

I know that as a child, I was taught to know the Bible and to know about God. I loved God, and going to church. I knew a lot about the Bible. But I did not know Christ. That did not happen until I was saved at 12.

This maybe explains it better:1738 John & Charles Wesley Experience Conversions

 

[Freodin]

Time to move on.


The thing is I believe I am understanding what you are trying to say and stating it doesn't add up.


Hi Freodin,
Yes, I am understanding you are stating your belief in the scientific principle but rejecting that which I would call "the soul" and which I believe continues to exist after bodily death. But I also believe you are still not understanding my point and so, once again, we appear to be missing each other. I believe you miss the points of reference I give because you may have an incomplete understanding of Christian theology. So let me make another attempt to expand on my position.
***snip***

In spite of your claim, your nice explanation (thank you, but I was already aware of this. Most atheists know quite well what they disagree with) shows that you do not understand my point.

And it is quite simple.

This is what you said before:
"... in the Atheistic Worldview one would assume the reality after death is non existence and you would be transformed into nothingness, the void, nihlo. However, that’s not what we see in the universe with regard to the physical. Matter and energy can be transformed but not destroyed. Matter may become energy and energy matter but it doesn’t become nothing."
and
"They believe that is the final reality and hence disregard the truth before them. Truth be told It is a principle which even contradicts the naturals laws of Physics which states that 'Energy can neither be created nor destroyed rather it can only be transformed from one form to another.'” (taken from your posts #151 and #152)

This is what I adressed. This, and nothing else.
Paraphrased, you claim that the "atheistic" position of the non-existence of the "self" (or life, or awareness, consciousness or whatever you may call it) contradicts a scientific principle. You made this claim twice.

And in response to my correction, you now claim that this atheistic position contradicts the Christian view of things.

I agree with this second claim. But it is irrelevant for your first claim, which is still false.

The Christian position on souls is not the scientific principle of energy conservation. Do you understand that?

Perhaps there is room for some semantical interpretation, If one thinks of the reality of God as the primary reality then I could see your point but only if there was no creation. I don't though because with creation God has provided all of with realities, both in this world and in the world to come. Our reality may differ in the Light of God's Truth and as to whether we accept His truths in this world. There certainly are consequential realities/states of being based on whether we are living in the truth or not in this world. The light of Truth is far dimmer in this temporal reality and that is on purpose. Still the truth is active and operative in our world and we see there is eventually a price to pay for wickedness. In America we have a saying that every dog has its day sooner or later you reap what you sow. However, in the final judgment there will be no hiding place from the Truth. We have the images God's light will see through all the hidden lies that covered up by the world. It is the realization of the Truth that primarily causes our final reality and whether we wake to our eternal shame or our eternal joy in Christ.

• Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life. Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
• 1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

I think we can agree to disagree on whether reality is primary or whether Truth is primary. Just so we are clear, however, my context is with respect to both God and His creation. I'm not trying to split hairs but my context is within the provision that both you and I exist - even if our existence is dependent upon God. He has willed me to exist and for you to exist as well. I believe our existence has a purpose. This of course is from a Theist position.
Cheers, Patrick

Is this really that difficult?

Let's take a step back at your last post, and try to understand some of what you wrote here "in the Light of your last post's truth".

"Our reality may differ in the Light of God's Truth and as to whether we accept His truths in this world."

"Reality", as you had defined it, is "The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence."

So here we have my reality: there is no God. Death is the end to life. Truth is an abstraction.

This is actual and true in objective existence. Indepedent of thought or language... (or observation or interpretation). It IS the state of my existence.

And we have your reality: God exists. There will be eternal life in a transformed state after death. God is Truth.

This also is actual and true in objective existence, independent of thought or language. It IS the state of your existence.

These (except for the part in paranthesis) are your words, your terms.

But these two "realities" cannot coexist. They contradict each other. It is not possible for God to exist AND not exist, for life to end and go on eternally.

And contrary what you said in your definition - that "reality" is objective - "reality" now depends on your acceptence of "His truths"... it is subjective.

His whats? I asked you repeatedly to define the way you use the term "truth"... and you never did. You keep throwing it around... and you keep using it in different ways, each of them unexplained.

God is Truth? So now our "objective, independent of thought and language actual existence" differs in the Light of God's God, and as to whether we accept His Gods in this world?


You are not making any sense. You are even contradicting yourself.

When you asked for my definition, I provided it. I explained where and why I disagree with your position. I didn't simply restate my position and declared my disagreement with you.

If you cannot do the same, this conversation is going nowhere.

 

[possibletarian]

Oh, I don't mean I don't have doubts from time to time about things, but I have settled the destination of my soul a long time ago, and have no doubts about it. I went through a period of doubting, and came out the other side with my faith stronger than ever. I was actually closer to God after my period of doubt than at any other time in my life- even closer than after first getting saved.

It is hard for me to really explain what believing in the heart is. It is being completely convinced, completely persuaded, but not only that. It is meeting Jesus and having a relationship with Him. I mean, it is knowing He is real, and not an abstract construct. He is a real person. He doesn't speak to me audibly of course, I don't have visions or hallucinations.

I know that as a child, I was taught to know the Bible and to know about God. I loved God, and going to church. I knew a lot about the Bible. But I did not know Christ. That did not happen until I was saved at 12.

This maybe explains it better:1738 John & Charles Wesley Experience Conversions

Thanks Galatea

Not sure I agree with you, but you have explained it very well it was a good and satisfying reply, and thanks for it.

I think sometimes I wish I could fully understand, but simply do not.

Andy

 

[possibletarian]

Hi Possibletarian,
First thank you for your message, as I am not always sure I am making my thoughts clear and appreciate when I am told what I am stating is reasonable.
Basically what makes me believe in the Bible is according to similar standards that open my belief system to include things in the scientific domain as well as the belief that my wife, children and grandkids love me. With physical things we have learned to test things in laboratories to gain empirical proofs. Even with laboratory experiments and postulates, that became theories, theories that became applications we know our science is inexact. Newtonian Physics was found to hold incomplete truths and gave way to Einsteins theory of relativity, which has since been applied but that is not the end of discovering the hidden truths integrated into nature. I'd like to think most everyone believes in love and it would make me sad to think the human race is falling away from that belief and the love of many might grow cold because iniquity abounds. Hopefully you are still with me when it comes to believing love truly exists among humankind though. With respect to love, we cannot make a laboratory experiment to prove its existence but we can see it evidences. I certainly have seen love that puts others above themselves. I see that in the mature love from my wife and I see it in my five children (the youngest now being 21). I will say that for my grandchildren the maturity of love is a work in progress but nevertheless I see such love in them and their love is a beautiful jewel to me, even if it is still a diamond in the rough. I see the love in them for what is will be also, not just what is is now, and what it was previously. In a way my belief system is built on the same 2 examples I discussed above, although the 2nd example hold for more sway. That is because intellectually I only require a reasoned faith. From my intellect I can build upon the truths I see apparent in my belief system as I study them and begin to comprehend faith in its journey. It is dynamic and not static. I have read the Bible dozens of times over and still find things within those covers that I never saw before. We are taught the Word is living and pierces our thoughts and I have found that to be true the more deeply I go.

• Hebrews 4:1-2 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

However, I see from my own heart how the love of God is transforming my heart as it calls me to trust in God more and more and step out on faith. One verse of Amazing Grace is

• Through many dangers, toils, and snares,
• I have already come;
• 'His grace has brought me safe thus far,
• And grace will lead me home.

My faith started out as a small mustard seed. I repented that my ways and self righteousness would lead to anything lasting. I no longer was happy in myself with the praises of people, whether it was mere flattery to influence me or said with genuine affection. I learned that people who really loved me would tell me the truth in my failures and successes. I had people tell me about God, not just Christians but Buddhists and Hindu's as well. Christianity made more sense but an example of Christian love was what brought me to the place of decision as to whether I would become a follower of Christ or not. The first step I took was scary to me. In recognizing Christ as the way, the truth and the life and putting my life into His hands, that loved me enough to take the nails of my sins, I sensed that it would change me and how others would view me. In a sense it was like being ready to die to my former self and to be transformed by the love of Christ that I saw as good and wanting to embrace. But it was unchartered waters and there was a cost but whatever the cost was it did not compare to my gain as I soon learned. God's love nurtured me and brought me through all my concerns like a butterfly takes its wings. Isaiah 49 taught me that God would be with me in everything I encountered and that His love for me was inscribed upon His crucified body

• Can a woman forget her nursing child, and not have compassion on the son of her womb? Surely they may forget, Yet I will not forget you. See, I have inscribed you upon My hands and your walls are continually before Me.

But let me get back to my above examples that I used for my standards of belief rather than my conversion experience. After I left the military I studied Electrical Engineering and Computer Science in College. As I matriculated I trusted in what I was told about physics and chemistry and mathematics, as well as what I learned in mechanical, electrical and software engineering because I believed the application were historical and accurate. They had been tried and tested and shown to be viable. I didn't know every nook and cranny of the sciences I studied but I knew them to be reasonable and useful for my advancing as an engineer. Science has progressed in understanding nature's truths and still continues to do so and so applications and evidences of these truths, although incomplete, continue to be beneficial.
In the same manner I was made aware of prophecies in the Bible and knowledge about the historical Christ that I could not ignore. When I began to investigate Him it was with a critical eye but His Words were not only beautiful they caused my understanding to flourish that Jesus was truly the Christ that was prophesied in the Jewish literature of the Old Testament. One was written 1000 years before the crucifixion by David, several centuries before it was ever invented and the details were even known. Not only did I learn this was exactly what would occur during a Roman crucifixion but that it exactly follows the Gospel writers in the unique experience Jesus suffered. Crucifixion is where we get the words crucible and excruciating.
How did crucifixion kill?

• Psalms 22:13-18 They gape at Me with their mouths, like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet. I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.

Remember in the Gospel accounts Jesus cried out, "My God, My God why has Thou forsaken Me?", which was the 1st line of Psalms 22:1 this representing the point whereas Paul expresses "He who knew no sin became sin for us". Jesus also stated "I thirst" which was absolutely part of the crucifixion experience. When they broke the legs of the others but saw that Jesus was already dead they pierced His side with a spear and both water and blood pour out of Him. A postmortem of a crucifixion victim would surely have shown the signs of congestive heart failure with water fluids mixed with the blood. He would have necessarily have died before the two criminals who were crucified with Him because of the severe flogging He received and falling with the cross in His weakened state. This would have been because He would not have been able to push Himself up to draw breath in order to survive as long as the other two. Take into account the mocking that His garments were divided by the Roman soldiers, the dogs that were historically part of the normal crucifixion scene. The fact that it was implied that Christ was buried twice. The Romans would have tossed the body in a common grave right after the three expired, which would have been minutes after they broke the legs of the others. There is ample historical evidence of dogs eating the bodies out of the ditch He would have been thrown into but Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man, requested the body of Pilate and buried Him in His new Garden tomb, which was hewn out of solid rock. It was attested to that Jesus was crucified at Golgotha, the place of the skull - this too is visibly seen just outside the city gates and just a quarter to 1/2 mile walk from the Garden tomb; which thanks to 19th century archeolgy has been found.
The Garden Tomb - Wikipedia
A better picture of Golgotha - the place of the skull, can be seen here. I have a picture from the 19th century before some of the features eroded probably due to the construction of the bus depot as well.

• golgotha - Bing images

The other prophecy is of course Isaiah 53, a messianic prophecy of the Christ that was written a full 700 years before His death and resurrection.

• BLB: NKJV

There is much more but these are two I found very convincing that the Biblical accounts were correct.

The other thing that convinced me was seeing the transformation in people that had truly changed. One of my direct reports in the military told me he had previously been paralyzed in a car accident but his sister, who was a Christian, brought him to a healing service and he was able to walk. That is not to say their are not counterfeit miracles but just like counterfeit money, the counterfeits exist because real money exists. Later I would see miracles of healing firsthand in the Name of Jesus and I would pray for people with others, as well as alone, in His Name as see healing people healed. St. Augustine stated that in order to truly know Him you must first believe. I started with a reasonable belief but now possess a supernatural belief in Christ. My faith becomes more unshakeable as I follow Jesus on my journey of faith. My love for others has grown as well as my love for Christ. It is a real relationship that I have nd not some figment of imagination. Other Christians would say the same thing. He is our treasure and I am overwhelmed by His love and Grace He has poured out upon my life. Yes I'm forever a debtor to His sacrifice of love for me but being in debt has never been so enriching. I'd follow Him to the ends of the earth and already have. My desire is to see all peoples impacted by the love of God and can't wait to get back there.

In Christ, Patrick
John 17:20

PS I cannot read the prayer of Jesus without feeling His love for all of us. I would encourage you to read it
John 17 the 20th verse is for us who believe in the words of His Apostles and Disciples. We find their words in the New Testament.

Hi Patrick

Thanks for your reply, I'm impressed by the depth you go into (along with Galatea) I believe your replies are both honest and genuine, give me some time to mull it trough and I will get back to you.

Andy

 

[John 1720]

Hi Patrick

Thanks for your reply, I'm impressed by the depth you go into (along with Galatea) I believe your replies are both honest and genuine, give me some time to mull it trough and I will get back to you.

Andy

Hi Andy
Sure, I'd be glad to answer any more questions you might have and will be praying for you. May wisdom be your sails and truth your rudder.
In Christ, Patrick

 

[Galatea]

Thanks Galatea

Not sure I agree with you, but you have explained it very well it was a good and satisfying reply, and thanks for it.

I think sometimes I wish I could fully understand, but simply do not.

Andy

I think it is something sort of inexplicable. It is something known with the heart- not just the head.

I guess it is sort of like falling in love. Before you fall in love, you know intellectually what it is all about, you believe it is true- but it is an abstract construct until you actually experience it for yourself.