Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think it is obvious "GOD hates religion"...
so, instead of religion
.... do as the Apostles and disciples all did instead of making up stories like purgatory (or taking them from pagan religions)

"FOLLOW JESUS"
after all, HE IS LORD !
and
GOD LOVES PEOPLE !

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How then can men know ?
[obviously] God knows. He says clearly in HIS WORD.
Few people accept HIS WORD.
There was never 'purgatory' in HIS WORD> simple !
There was 'purgatory' in pagan heathen gentile nations.

Men have to trust God to be free,
not trust men.

 

[paul becke]

I agree that the way is narrow and few there be that find it. But once you find it, it is much easier than following religion. Do you disagree?

No. Of course not. Christ did not say that we were not to be formally religiously observant. Allowances are made for hermits, such as John the Baptist, but that's it. The word religion is derived from the Latin : 'to bind'. Christ was emphatically NOT a spiritual gypsy. He bound himself to formal religious observance, true observance to the point of death by crucifixion at the hands of his killers, who, in arranging with the Romans for Jesus to be crucified, far from being as observant as they postured to be, were in breach of religious law.

However, it should be borne in mind that people of good will who are not formally religious, because scandalised by wicked witness to the faith by the formally religious, will be saved, as the description of the Last Judgment in Matthew 25 31-46 indicates. All who are saved, people of good will of other faiths, too, can only be saved via Christ's saving Passion, even though they may be ignorant of it. This however is NOT an excuse for failure to evangelise the Christian faith.

 

[paul becke]

How then can men know ?
[obviously] God knows. He says clearly in HIS WORD.
Few people accept HIS WORD.
There was never 'purgatory' in HIS WORD> simple !
There was 'purgatory' in pagan heathen gentile nations.

Men have to trust God to be free,
not trust men.

Utter foolishness ! 'Cleansing as if by fire' indicates 'purgation', 'cleansing'. You seem to be saying that, for instance, Jesus' baptism (which he didn't even need), his presentation in the Temple as an infant, etc, were nothing but the traditions of men, which should have been scorned. What you say is not even sensible enough to be a blasphemous contempt of scripture, and of his religiously- observant upbringing.

There is nothing in scripture that says that the Messiah would need to be baptised, still less the God-man, Jesus, but Jesus insisted on it in conformity with the law. And you are claiming that Peter and the Apostles condered it all to be rubbish ?

 

[Gabriel Anton]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

Peace be with you.

Purgatory is the spiritual realm between Hell and Heaven.

It is the place where the souls of the saved go to purge the taint of sins from their souls.

Those who loved God and got marks greater than 50% but less than 100% all go to the various levels of Purgatory to be purified of their sins.

At the lower levels of Purgatory lies the thin red line where the 50.01% dwells, those who barely passed but are nevertheless saved.

There is a story about a sick man who was suffering on his death bed in great pain. As he was suffering, he fell into a trance and was greeted by his Guardian Angel. The Angel asked the sick man whether he would like to suffer on his death bed or if he would like to be brought to Purgatory. The sick man replied, "Anything would be better than this terrible pain. Take me to Purgatory now please."

The Angel replied, "As you wish." The sick man found himself in Purgatory. When he saw the Angel visiting him in Purgatory, he said to the Angel, "Why did you take me here? I have been suffering so much more here for so long." The Angel replied, "For so long? Your body on Earth has not even started to decay yet. You've only been here for 1 minute of your Earth time."

The sick man replied, "Can I go back to Earth please? I promise I will suffer joyfully and I will tell everyone God is most generous and merciful and I will offer up my suffering and prayers to God until I die for the Salvation of Souls. I will be more fruitful to God on Earth than here." The Angel replied, "God has granted your request."

The sick man awoke back on Earth joyfully suffering pain on his death bed and fulfilled his promise to God until his last breath on Earth to produce fruits for the Salvation of Souls.

God bless you.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

exactly, jeff, exactly

The other side just seeks to confuse us... < shrugs > ....
and
it is not even in Harmony with the Bible...

Stay in the Bible.
As written
"...keep yourselves from idols"
(don't practice idolatry)

 

[paul becke]

My Bible does not say that if I don't avoid meat, eggs, dairy for 40 days and nothing but water on Good Friday and Holy Saturday, that I am not pursuing my God closely. These are rituals of men and will not get one any closer to the Father.

It does say, however, that I am saved by faith through grace, and not of works so that none should boast.

The true gospel of Jesus Christ has been utterly forsaken by the RCC.

But you sure better have works or you're a gonner. Especially after misleading people with a partial truth, missing out the key - as did the scribes, lawyers and Pharisees. Have a stab at guessing what the key is. LOVE. Not emotional love, not sexual love. WORKS of LOVE. A selfless LOVE that only God can inspire in us through the Holy Spirit. All religion was created to serve love, charity. But that doesn't mean we can feel free to 'do our own thing' without reference to formal religious observance, if we have reason to know better from scripture and tradition going back thousands of years, during which many men and women of outstanding sanctity shone with the light of Christ for our benefit, passing that light on from genration to generations.

Protestantism, admirable in its early days, is clearly falling apart, while the Cathoic church for all the knavery and villainy in the higher reaches of its administration at different times during its history, is now really getting it together.

 

[PropheticTimes]

The other side just seeks to confuse us... < shrugs > ....
and
it is not even in Harmony with the Bible...

Stay in the Bible.
As written
"...keep yourselves from idols"
(don't practice idolatry)

Agreed!

Staying in the Bible keeps us from confusion, and idolatry.

Amen!

 

[paul becke]

Peace be with you.

Purgatory is the spiritual realm between Hell and Heaven.

It is the place where the souls of the saved go to purge the taint of sins from their souls.

Those who loved God and got marks greater than 50% but less than 100% all go to the various levels of Purgatory to be purified of their sins.

At the lower levels of Purgatory lies the thin red line where the 50.01% dwells, those who barely passed but are nevertheless saved.

There is a story about a sick man who was suffering on his death bed in great pain. As he was suffering, he fell into a trance and was greeted by his Guardian Angel. The Angel asked the sick man whether he would like to suffer on his death bed or if he would like to be brought to Purgatory. The sick man replied, "Anything would be better than this terrible pain. Take me to Purgatory now please."

The Angel replied, "As you wish." The sick man found himself in Purgatory. When he saw the Angel visiting him in Purgatory, he said to the Angel, "Why did you take me here? I have been suffering so much more here for so long." The Angel replied, "For so long? Your body on Earth has not even started to decay yet. You've only been here for 1 minute of your Earth time."

The sick man replied, "Can I go back to Earth please? I promise I will suffer joyfully and I will tell everyone God is most generous and merciful and I will offer up my suffering and prayers to God until I die for the Salvation of Souls. I will be more fruitful to God on Earth than here." The Angel replied, "God has granted your request."

The sick man awoke back on Earth joyfully suffering pain on his death bed and fulfilled his promise to God until his last breath on Earth to produce fruits for the Salvation of Souls.

God bless you.

Very good !

 

[paul becke]

Well, Purgatory doesn't give anyone a second chance. That's what Chilehed was saying. It supposedly exists in order to punish those who are already saved.

That could be said about merely being born !!!!!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It supposedly exists in order to punish those who are already saved.

It is looks like it is being used
instead of God's WORD and FAITH and TRUST IN JESUS.

 

[dqhall]

Martin Luther was alive in the 1500's. He protested the Roman Catholic church selling indulgences to parishioners for them to get their loved ones out of purgatory. Purgatory was described as a place between heaven and hell. In the Book of Acts 8:9-25, Simon the magician/sorcerer tried to give money to the disciples who had the gift of the Holy Spirit to buy it for himself. Simon was rebuked. The gift of salvation can not be bought with money or traded like wheat.

There are further abuses of the early Roman Catholic Church described in Foxe's Book of the Martyrs. Fox's Book of Martyrs by John Foxe

 

[paul becke]

There is no purgatory. This is a Roman Catholic false doctrine and is not supported by scripture. When you die you had better be fessed up and right with God through Jesus and His cross His blood and His sacrifice. The simplicity of the gospel is just that. Men and their false doctrines and religions have tried to change the very word of God. Woe unto them. They have tried to add to and take away from God's word. I was saved outside of church walls a d knew nothing of Jesus or God's word. He took a blank page and was able to show me His word, the Bible and the power and truth written there.

That is just the starting point and does not change what you are ontologically. Your very nature has to be changed into likeness of Him, and salvation does not accomplish this. Salvation frees us from the slavery to and damnation of sin, but it is only a starting point.

The doctrine of purgatory has stumbled and damned multitudes.

It may well have made some men stumble, and certainly misunderstand God's love and the afterlife, as it is a Medieval invention of the Roman Church, but it has not damned anyone. It sounds like you are reading Chick tracts.

See what the word says. Repent, be born again, be baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit of God.

No, that is not what the Scripture says. To understand the proper interpretation of the Scriptures, you must study what the first century preachers taught in their sermons. The proper soteriological formula is this: repent, be born again by baptism, and by chrismation receive the Holy Spirit.

Receive the spiritual gifts of God. Speak in tongues. Cast out devils. Put on the full armor of God Ephesians 6th chapter.

All of which are evident in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. It will help you if you do a study on the saints of the Church and the miracles they performed through the centuries.

Those baptized in His Holy Spirit have no need for men to teach them for.

1 John 2:27 (NKJV)
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Do you think that this verse means that these disciples could believe anything they wanted to? Using your reasoning, Arias the Christ-denying heretic could say (and I imagine that he did when defending himself at the Council of Nicea) that the Holy Spirit was teaching him.

There are over 40,000 Protestant denominations, all of which teach something different, some of them quite whacky, yet they all claim that they are being led by the Holy Spirit and the Bible. Do you see a problem here?

Do you see a problem here ?!!!!!

 

[paul becke]

You may choose to believe doctrines and traditions of men over Scripture, but I will not. I test all things against Scripture.

Like the members of the other 40,000 sects ? You almost sounded proud of it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="THE W]biblical UFO[/QUOTE
"unidetified foreign 'octrine" sad, but commonplace...

QUOTE="dqhall"]Martin Luther was alive in the 1500's. He protested the Roman Catholic church selling indulgences to parishioners for them to get their loved ones out of purgatory. Purgatory was described as a place between heaven and hell. In the Book of Acts 8:9-25, Simon the magician/sorcerer tried to give money to the disciples who had the gift of the Holy Spirit to buy it for himself. Simon was rebuked. The gift of salvation can not be bought with money or traded like wheat.

There are further abuses of the early Roman Catholic Church described in Foxe's Book of the Martyrs. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/22400
LINK:
Fox's Book of Martyrs by John Foxe
[/QUOTE

Immeasurable suffering and death.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Light of the East,"]

There is no purgatory.

This is a Roman Catholic false doctrine and is not supported by scripture.

When you die you had better be fessed up and right with God through Jesus and His cross His blood and His sacrifice.

The simplicity of the gospel is just that.

[/QUOTE
TRUTH. YES. TRUE. (NO, no problem with that: GOD'S WORD VERIFIED)

 

[dqhall]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

Hebrews 9:27 King James Version
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Kenny'sID]

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

That was my first thought as I went to post that very thing here, Frank, but I did as you say we should here...

Do not accept false teaching that cannot be proved outside of the Bible.(not saying you are pushing false teachings as the verse is almost always quoted as you quoted it.)

...and got a little surprise, as in, that is not how the verse actually reads, it's...

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

First thing we see is the verse is cut in half by many who quote it. See where you started it with "To", which cuts the actual verse right in the middle and not even at a comma, hence pulls it out of context.

Does it still mean what we have thought, possibly, but upon rereading it including all the words, and in context, hardly necessarily.

But this...

Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him that "today you shall be with me in paradise"

....is in context and seems to validate where we go immediately after we die, but then what are we to do with the following set of verses of which we are all familiar?

1Th 4:13-18
13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So, both literally and figuratively, where do we go from here?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, both literally and figuratively, where do we go from here?

VER GUD ! .... The TRUTH , seek the TRUTH, and you shall KNOW,
not wonder,
not guess,
not be in doubt,
KNOW THE TRUTH, and the TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.
(not acceptable to worldly or carnal or deceived mankind,btw)

THE ANSWER(pm for key) to your quest, Kenny, is CLEAR and PERFECT in BIBLE, and not
corrupted* from greek myths or persia or babylong*.

*(sic) (sick) (society)(mankind) (untruthful)(deceptive)(men)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well, THAT's a novel theory.

Not just a novel - 34 miles approximately of shelves of books to defend what is false in the underground (published) vault ...
Over 100,000 false books supporting false doctrine in a false system (not just one or two ideas from mythology)...