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Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

towerwatchman

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Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

When judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective. Morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms. Using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish. We cannot do this by just looking at the physical features of the creatures. A human may ‘look’ more complex than a frog but how much more in quantitative terms cannot be determined by morphology.

Biochemical level.

On the biochemical level the difference between two proteins can be quantified exactly and the results can be used to measure similarity or difference between species. What is needed is a common thread that runs through living things.

Cytochrome c is a small hemeprotein found loosely associated with the inner membrane of the mitochondrion. Cytochrome c is a highly water soluble protein, and is an essential component of the electron transport chain. Has a fundamental role in biological oxidation. Note found in a wide range of organisms from bacterial to mammals. It is about 100 amino acids long, has the same 3D configuration and possess an identical active site. What does vary between different organisms is the amino acid sequences. In Dayhoff’s Atlas of Protein Structure and Function there is a matrix with nearly 1089 entries showing the percentage sequence difference between thirty three different cytochromes taken from multiple species.

We can use cytochrome c sequences to classify species into groups and these groups do correspond precisely with the groups arrived at on traditional grounds. The sequential divergence becomes greater as the taxonomic distance between organisms increases. But each identifiable subclass of sequences is isolated and distinct. Every sequence can be unambiguously assigned to a particular subclass. No sequence or group of can be designated as intermediate with respect to the other group. They are equally isolated from the members of other groups.

If evolution is true then the existence of cytochrome C in ‘higher forms’ is the result from evolving from a common ancestor. We would expect to see a logical progression in distance, measurable in percentage of difference as we move up the hierarchy of evolution. As we progress along the presumed evolutionary path from single cell organisms, to multi cell, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals to humans we should see the changes in cytochrome C accumulate.

But that is not the case.

Compare Rhodospirillum rubrum [bacteria] and Eucaryotic organisms. Percentage of difference.

Horse 64%, Pigeon 64%, Tuna 65%, Silk worm 65%, Wheat 66%, Yeast 69%

As far as bacterial cytochrome is concerned there is no intermediate between it and other eukaryotic cytochromes.

Within the Animal kingdom.

Compare phylum Arthropoda with phylum Vertebrata. Percentage of difference.

Horse 27%, pigeon 25%, turtle 26%, carp 25%, lamprey 30%.

All vertebrate types, [from cyclostomes and mammals], are uniformly distant from the insects.

Compare lamprey [cyclostome] with jawed vertebrates. Percentage of difference.

Carp [fish] 75%, frog [amphibian] 81%, chicken [bird] 78%, kangaroo [marsupial] 76%, and human [placental] 73%.

No trace of traditional evolution at the molecular level. Man is as close to a lamprey as a fish.

But let’s go further up the evolutionary trail and see if there are intermediates.

Let’s compare a fish, with amphibian, reptile, or mammal.

Comparing a carp, we have the following percentage of difference.

Horse 13%, rabbit 13%, chicken 14%, turtle 13% and bullfrog 13%.

Again an extraordinary mathematical exactness in the degree of isolation is apparent. Although cytochrome C sequences varied among terrestrial vertebrates, all of them are equal distance from a fish. No chronological sequence of evolution.

Can the same degree of isolation be quantified isolating other proteins?

Comparing hemoglobin between a snail and various vertebrates we find the following degree of difference.

Lamprey 85%, carp 87%, frog 87%, chicken 85%, kangaroo 85%.

On the evidence of protein sequences the lamprey cannot be classified as primitive with respect to other vertebrates, nor considered and intermediate between higher vertebrates and none vertebrates.

If evolution were true, and creatures gradually evolved from one to another, there should be intermediate forms. Intermediate forms should be found in living creatures, in the fossil record, and at the bio chemical level. As to the fossil record none are found.

But some now argue the reason we find none in the fossil record is because every creature is a transitional species. That also has been proven false, for if single cell organisms, evolved into multiple cell, into fish, into amphibians, into reptiles, mammals and finally man we should see progression in the percentage of difference in cytochrome C between the hierarchies , but we do not. As other evolutionary ‘disciplines’ interpret the evidence with ‘fuzzy’ parameters and ‘gray’ guidelines, being more subjective than objective, bio chemistry differs with mathematical precision and disproves evolution.
 
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Speedwell

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On the evidence of protein sequences the lamprey cannot be classified as primitive with respect to other vertebrates, nor considered and intermediate between higher vertebrates and none vertebrates.
The modern lamprey? Of course not. Why would you think such a thing?
 
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Gene2memE

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Using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish. We cannot do this by just looking at the physical features of the creatures.

If you think you cant measure the morphological distance of mouse-cat and mouse-fish and tell which are further apart, you're starting from a flawed premise.

A human may ‘look’ more complex than a frog but how much more in quantitative terms cannot be determined by morphology.

I don't think a human does look, morpholgically speaking, more complex than a frog. What now?

On the biochemical level the difference between two proteins can be quantified exactly and the results can be used to measure similarity or difference between species.

Can they?

Or does finding the difference between protein strands just show the difference between protein strands?

We can use cytochrome c sequences to classify species into groups and these groups do correspond precisely with the groups arrived at on traditional grounds.

Can you show your working here? Or a reference supporting this?

If evolution is true then the existence of cytochrome C in ‘higher forms’ is the result from evolving from a common ancestor. We would expect to see a logical progression in distance, measurable in percentage of difference as we move up the hierarchy of evolution.

No, we wouldn't.

There's no such thing as 'higher' forms - just more evolutionarily recent, less evolutionary recent.

As we progress along the presumed evolutionary path from single cell organisms, to multi cell, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals to humans we should see the changes in cytochrome C accumulate.

Sure, but all you're examining are extant species. I think you're running your mathematical model off flawed assumptions, and generating faulty conclusions.
 
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towerwatchman

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If you think you cant measure the morphological distance of mouse-cat and mouse-fish and tell which are further apart, you're starting from a flawed premise.



I don't think a human does look, morpholgically speaking, more complex than a frog. What now?



Can they?

Or does finding the difference between protein strands just show the difference between protein strands?



Can you show your working here? Or a reference supporting this?



No, we wouldn't.

There's no such thing as 'higher' forms - just more evolutionarily recent, less evolutionary recent.



Sure, but all you're examining are extant species. I think you're running your mathematical model off flawed assumptions, and generating faulty conclusions.


The data is taken from ‘Dayhoff Atlas of Protein Structure and Function. Since Cytochrome c is found in most living things from single cell bacteria to humans, it can be used to measure the evolutionary process.
As we progress along the presumed evolutionary path from single cell organisms, to multi cell, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals to humans we should see the changes in cytochrome C accumulate.

But we don’t. Why? This does not prove common ancestry at all. What it proves is that the creatures we have now all appeared on the earth around the same time vs evolved from a common ancestor.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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If evolution is true then the existence of cytochrome C in ‘higher forms’ is the result from evolving from a common ancestor. We would expect to see a logical progression in distance, measurable in percentage of difference as we move up the hierarchy of evolution. As we progress along the presumed evolutionary path from single cell organisms, to multi cell, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals to humans we should see the changes in cytochrome C accumulate.
Why should we see this? That's a simple assertion, no explanation why this should be the case.
 
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Jimmy D

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As you copy and pasted your OP I'll just do the same with my response if that's ok?

Evolutionary pattern and process stands vindicated from Denton's assault. It does not win out by default, being implausible but socially established and lacking a superior alternative - rather, it is a plausible process with no contenders, and is backed up strongly by empirical evidence. There is debate within evolutionist circles about systematics, tempo, and the roles of genetic drift and preadaptation, and still plenty of work to be done fleshing out stories about the development of certain structures, but none of this in any way puts macroevolution and the pattern of non-teleological common descent in a crisis situation. Rather, they are indicators that evolutionary biology is still a field which offers work to be done, just like any other field.

Critique of Michael Denton's "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis"

It's not 1985 anymore mate. The 'crisis' has passed.

Edit: I forgot to mention this post is based on the fact that some of the OP is plagiarized form Denton's book.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Compare Rhodospirillum rubrum [bacteria] and Eucaryotic organisms. Percentage of difference.

Horse 64%, Pigeon 64%, Tuna 65%, Silk worm 65%, Wheat 66%, Yeast 69%

As far as bacterial cytochrome is concerned there is no intermediate between it and other eukaryotic cytochromes.

Within the Animal kingdom.

Compare phylum Arthropoda with phylum Vertebrata. Percentage of difference.

Horse 27%, pigeon 25%, turtle 26%, carp 25%, lamprey 30%.

All vertebrate types, [from cyclostomes and mammals], are uniformly distant from the insects.

Compare lamprey [cyclostome] with jawed vertebrates. Percentage of difference.

Carp [fish] 75%, frog [amphibian] 81%, chicken [bird] 78%, kangaroo [marsupial] 76%, and human [placental] 73%.

This appears to have been plagiarized from Duane Gish. Analysis here:
Untitled Document
 
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bhsmte

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Mathematically Measuring Evolution.

When judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective. Morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms. Using the standard method of taxonomy we cannot quantify the difference between a horse and a mouse, or know which is closer mouse to cat, or mouse to fish. We cannot do this by just looking at the physical features of the creatures. A human may ‘look’ more complex than a frog but how much more in quantitative terms cannot be determined by morphology.

Biochemical level.

On the biochemical level the difference between two proteins can be quantified exactly and the results can be used to measure similarity or difference between species. What is needed is a common thread that runs through living things.

Cytochrome c is a small hemeprotein found loosely associated with the inner membrane of the mitochondrion. Cytochrome c is a highly water soluble protein, and is an essential component of the electron transport chain. Has a fundamental role in biological oxidation. Note found in a wide range of organisms from bacterial to mammals. It is about 100 amino acids long, has the same 3D configuration and possess an identical active site. What does vary between different organisms is the amino acid sequences. In Dayhoff’s Atlas of Protein Structure and Function there is a matrix with nearly 1089 entries showing the percentage sequence difference between thirty three different cytochromes taken from multiple species.

We can use cytochrome c sequences to classify species into groups and these groups do correspond precisely with the groups arrived at on traditional grounds. The sequential divergence becomes greater as the taxonomic distance between organisms increases. But each identifiable subclass of sequences is isolated and distinct. Every sequence can be unambiguously assigned to a particular subclass. No sequence or group of can be designated as intermediate with respect to the other group. They are equally isolated from the members of other groups.

If evolution is true then the existence of cytochrome C in ‘higher forms’ is the result from evolving from a common ancestor. We would expect to see a logical progression in distance, measurable in percentage of difference as we move up the hierarchy of evolution. As we progress along the presumed evolutionary path from single cell organisms, to multi cell, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals to humans we should see the changes in cytochrome C accumulate.

But that is not the case.

Compare Rhodospirillum rubrum [bacteria] and Eucaryotic organisms. Percentage of difference.

Horse 64%, Pigeon 64%, Tuna 65%, Silk worm 65%, Wheat 66%, Yeast 69%

As far as bacterial cytochrome is concerned there is no intermediate between it and other eukaryotic cytochromes.

Within the Animal kingdom.

Compare phylum Arthropoda with phylum Vertebrata. Percentage of difference.

Horse 27%, pigeon 25%, turtle 26%, carp 25%, lamprey 30%.

All vertebrate types, [from cyclostomes and mammals], are uniformly distant from the insects.

Compare lamprey [cyclostome] with jawed vertebrates. Percentage of difference.

Carp [fish] 75%, frog [amphibian] 81%, chicken [bird] 78%, kangaroo [marsupial] 76%, and human [placental] 73%.

No trace of traditional evolution at the molecular level. Man is as close to a lamprey as a fish.

But let’s go further up the evolutionary trail and see if there are intermediates.

Let’s compare a fish, with amphibian, reptile, or mammal.

Comparing a carp, we have the following percentage of difference.

Horse 13%, rabbit 13%, chicken 14%, turtle 13% and bullfrog 13%.

Again an extraordinary mathematical exactness in the degree of isolation is apparent. Although cytochrome C sequences varied among terrestrial vertebrates, all of them are equal distance from a fish. No chronological sequence of evolution.

Can the same degree of isolation be quantified isolating other proteins?

Comparing hemoglobin between a snail and various vertebrates we find the following degree of difference.

Lamprey 85%, carp 87%, frog 87%, chicken 85%, kangaroo 85%.

On the evidence of protein sequences the lamprey cannot be classified as primitive with respect to other vertebrates, nor considered and intermediate between higher vertebrates and none vertebrates.

If evolution were true, and creatures gradually evolved from one to another, there should be intermediate forms. Intermediate forms should be found in living creatures, in the fossil record, and at the bio chemical level. As to the fossil record none are found.

But some now argue the reason we find none in the fossil record is because every creature is a transitional species. That also has been proven false, for if single cell organisms, evolved into multiple cell, into fish, into amphibians, into reptiles, mammals and finally man we should see progression in the percentage of difference in cytochrome C between the hierarchies , but we do not. As other evolutionary ‘disciplines’ interpret the evidence with ‘fuzzy’ parameters and ‘gray’ guidelines, being more subjective than objective, bio chemistry differs with mathematical precision and disproves evolution.

Will you be in line for a Nobel prize soon?
 
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sfs

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As others have noted, this post is completely and unambiguously wrong in its conclusions.

When judging relationships in terms of morphological characteristics we will always be bound by the subjective. Morphologically one cannot exactly measure the distance between two organisms strictly in mathematical terms.

A completely false statement. There is an entire field of research, and a large literature, devoted to exactly and objectively measuring morphological differences between organisms. The fact that your source evidently doesn't know anything about the actual science of evolutionary biology might give you pause.

Compare Rhodospirillum rubrum [bacteria] and Eucaryotic organisms. Percentage of difference.

Horse 64%, Pigeon 64%, Tuna 65%, Silk worm 65%, Wheat 66%, Yeast 69%

As far as bacterial cytochrome is concerned there is no intermediate between it and other eukaryotic cytochromes.
Here we have the core error, one that reveals a complete lack of understanding of evolution. This is the same howler of an error that Michael Denton made in his first book on evolution. To spell it out, in case you haven't gotten it yet: bacteria should be equally diverged from every eukaryote. Eukaryotes branched off from bacteria a long time ago, and every single eukaryote has been evolving differences from the ancestral genome for the same amount of time since then, as has every bacterium descended from that ancestor. Expecting anything else means the author understands evolution so poorly he should just keep his mouth shut about the subject.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Every creature alive today is the result of the same number of years of evolution.

"We can use cytochrome c sequences to classify species into groups and these groups do correspond precisely with the groups arrived at on traditional grounds. ... But each identifiable subclass of sequences is isolated and distinct. Every sequence can be unambiguously assigned to a particular subclass."

By this, I take it that these sequences fall into a nested hierarchy. Given the variability in this protein, why would that be the case if all species were specially and separately created?
 
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towerwatchman

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Why should we see this? That's a simple assertion, no explanation why this should be the case.
yes this should be the case. If evolution progressed as the theory of evolution claims we should see a difference, but we don't
 
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towerwatchman

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As you copy and pasted your OP I'll just do the same with my response if that's ok?

Evolutionary pattern and process stands vindicated from Denton's assault. It does not win out by default, being implausible but socially established and lacking a superior alternative - rather, it is a plausible process with no contenders, and is backed up strongly by empirical evidence. There is debate within evolutionist circles about systematics, tempo, and the roles of genetic drift and preadaptation, and still plenty of work to be done fleshing out stories about the development of certain structures, but none of this in any way puts macroevolution and the pattern of non-teleological common descent in a crisis situation. Rather, they are indicators that evolutionary biology is still a field which offers work to be done, just like any other field.

Critique of Michael Denton's "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis"

It's not 1985 anymore mate. The 'crisis' has passed.

Edit: I forgot to mention this post is based on the fact that some of the OP is plagiarized form Denton's book.
Notice your quote said nothing to refute the Denton's claim. It just dismissed it. I can say the same thing. This is not 1859 beaks changing on finches does not prove that whales evolved from mammals.
 
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towerwatchman

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As others have noted, this post is completely and unambiguously wrong in its conclusions.



A completely false statement. There is an entire field of research, and a large literature, devoted to exactly and objectively measuring morphological differences between organisms. The fact that your source evidently doesn't know anything about the actual science of evolutionary biology might give you pause.


Here we have the core error, one that reveals a complete lack of understanding of evolution. This is the same howler of an error that Michael Denton made in his first book on evolution. To spell it out, in case you haven't gotten it yet: bacteria should be equally diverged from every eukaryote. Eukaryotes branched off from bacteria a long time ago, and every single eukaryote has been evolving differences from the ancestral genome for the same amount of time since then, as has every bacterium descended from that ancestor. Expecting anything else means the author understands evolution so poorly he should just keep his mouth shut about the subject.

Following your logic, if "every single eukaryote has been evolving differences from the ancestral genome for the same amount of time since then, as has every bacterium descended from that ancestor." we should see a difference in cytochrome c. But we do not.
 
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towerwatchman

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Every creature alive today is the result of the same number of years of evolution.

"We can use cytochrome c sequences to classify species into groups and these groups do correspond precisely with the groups arrived at on traditional grounds. ... But each identifiable subclass of sequences is isolated and distinct. Every sequence can be unambiguously assigned to a particular subclass."

By this, I take it that these sequences fall into a nested hierarchy. Given the variability in this protein, why would that be the case if all species were specially and separately created?

I am not proposing at this moment that anything was created but that they appeared on the earth at the same time. There was no evolutionary process.
 
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towerwatchman

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Whatever... He spammed this over at CARM as well.

Not sure if he posted his opus about whale evolution here or not, but when he posted at CARM, he included this whopper:


This [physical changes during the evolution of whales] would require at least one new structural protein for each change.
Each protein would require adding at least 300 new letters to the genetic code in the proper sequence.

I have, literally, been after him for a year to explain these claims.
I get that creationists really really really want evolution to be false and all that, but what i will never understand is how they are able to see themselves as these paragons of scientific intellect and virtue when nearly every one of their scientific assertions is not just false, but often times trivially false and they so often engage in easily-discovered plagiarism.

Your memory seems short. Very simple if evolution is true, for there to be any mutation there has to be new genetic information. 300 letters added to the genetic code equals 100 codons or 100 aminio acids. The simplest proteins are apporx 150 amino acid long. What is the probability of simple functional protein arising by natural selection.

'To construct even one short protein molecule of 150 amino acids by chance there are several combinatorial problems – probabilistic hurdles- to overcome. First, all amino acids must form a peptide bond when joining with other amino acids in the protein chain. If the amino acids do not link up with one another via a peptide bond, the resulting molecule will not fold into a protein. In nature many other types of chemical bonds are possible between amino acids. In fact, when amino acid mixtures are allowed to react in a test tube, they form peptide and none peptide bonds with roughly equal probability. Thus, with each amino acid addition, the probability of it forming a peptide bond is roughly ½. Once four amino acids have become linked, the likelihood that they are joined exclusively by peptide bonds is roughly [1/2]^4. The probability of building a chain of 150 amino acids in which all linkages are peptide linkages is {1/2}^149, or 1 chance in 10^45.

Second in nature every amino acid found in proteins [ with one exception] has a distinct mirror image of itself, there is one left handed version, or L form, and one right handed version, or D form. These mirror image forms are called optical isomers. Functioning proteins tolerate only left handed amino acids, yet in abiotic amino acid production the right handed and left handed isomers are produced with roughly equal frequency. Taking this into account further compounds the improbability of attaining a biologically functioning protein. The probability of attaining, at random only L amino acids in a hypothetical peptide chain 150 amino acids long is [1/2]^150 or roughly 1 chance in 10^45. Starting from mixtures of D and L form the probability of building a 150 amino acid chain at random in which all bonds are peptide bonds and all amino acids are L form is, therefore, roughly 1 chance in 10^90.

Amino acids link together when the amino group of one amino acid bonds to the carboxyl group of another. Notice that water is the byproduct of the reaction. [Condensation reaction].

Functional proteins have a third independent requirement, the most important of all, their amino acids, like letters in a meaningful sentence, must link up in functionally specified sequential arrangements. In some cases, changing even one amino acid at a given site results in the loss of protein function. Moreover, because a there are 20 biologically occurring amino acids, the probability of getting a specific amino acid at a given site is small 1/20 [actually the probability is even lower because in nature, there are also may none protein forming amino acids.] On the assumption that each site is a protein chain requires a particular amino acid, the probability of attaining a particular protein 150 amino acids long would be [1/20]^150 or roughly 1 chance 10^195. 1chance in 10^195.

Taking this into account only causes the improbability of generating the necessary proteins by chance or the genetic information to produce them, to balloon beyond comprehension. In 1983 distinguished British cosmologist Sr. Fred Hoyle calculated the odds of producing the proteins necessary to service a simple one celled organism by chance at 1 in 10^40K.

[There are 10^65 atoms in our galaxy]”

[Stephen C. Meyer]
 
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USincognito

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... prove that whales evolved from mammals.

The fact that whales are mammals "proves" they evolved from mammals.

And I've got three lines of evidence showing whales evolved from land mammals. I'll post them when I'm not on my phone.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I am not proposing at this moment that anything was created but that they appeared on the earth at the same time. There was no evolutionary process.

Very well then: By this, I take it that these sequences fall into a nested hierarchy. Given the variability in this protein, why would that be the case if all species appeared at the same time (and are unrelated by ancestry)?
 
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USincognito

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I am not proposing at this moment that anything was created but that they appeared on the earth at the same time. There was no evolutionary process.
Then your proposition is contrary to the evidence.

Faunal succession alone falsifies your first assertion. The massive and ever growing evidence supporting evolution falsifies your second one.
 
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