National Go Topless Day

[Sammy-San]

She is right with much of what she says, except women should be allowed to go topless anyplace men can go topless.

You keep referencing what the Bible says about women dressing modestly, ignoring that the Bible discusses modesty in terms of overdressing not underdressing.

Thoughts: Respecting Women

It goes without saying that these verses apply to men, too, as they address attitudes of the heart. The truth is that most women endowed with physical beauty do not appreciate being scrutinized or ogled, and those seen as less attractive may welcome being treated with equal time and attention. Regardless of perceived physical beauty, women should never be ignored or treated as a sex object.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't agree with her-do you? She ignores the fact that the Bible emphasizes women dressing modestly and upper anatomy differences.

Well, I listened to the whole thing. I actually agree with much of what she actually says.

I would submit that the problems came from her youth group leaders, who might have been acting on the best information they had.

I raised a daughter in church. When we got together for pool parties and such, yes, the girls wore t-shirts. SO DID THE BOYS.

I do believe that men in general are more visually directed in this than women are, but not completely. And women are less visually directed than men, but not to the point that the influence is zero. We are all on a continuum, and I would say if you averaged all men, and all women, those averages would show that men are more visually directed, on average than women. But neither is an absolute, except maybe in the case of rare individuals.

I'm really not wanting to participate in this thread though. Too many side issues keep being brought up and serve as smokescreens, and too much sarcasm.

Men and women are physically different, despite what current sociological trends wish to push. It isn't discriminatory to say so. It is blind to deny it.

I have another idea. If the folks are so upset about men and women being treated differently according to their anatomy, have them start a petition to make it illegal for men to bare their chests in public. That would solve the problem, and then "everyone would be equal". But something tells me there would be a lot of backlash against that idea, and suddenly "equality" wouldn't be the main point on everyone's mind.

Simple. Women have breasts. In our society, and virtually every civilized society through history, they have been covered. This is the social expectation. And from a Christian standpoint, it shouldn't be hard to figure out. Life is too short (literally) to spend pages and hours debating this.

Besides, anyone who is arguing for "equality" and saying women should go topless, you do realize that most people will assume you REALLY just want to see the boobs? So you're not exactly avoiding the appearance of evil there, are you? Causing all sorts of dissension, controversy, and disruption in the body. These are all things Scripture IS clear about.

"Loving" someone by arguing they should be able to walk around somewhat naked by society's standards is a little harder to defend.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I know plenty of men who don't look good topless, too. I think that's part of the point, that freedom is meant to be equal, not just for the good looking.

Freedom is the unfettered ability to do what's right, not the unfettered ability to do what we want.

 

[Armoured]

Freedom is the unfettered ability to do what's right, not the unfettered ability to do what we want.

Oh yes? According to whose definition of what's right?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Oh yes? According to whose definition of what's right?

God's.

 

[Armoured]

God's.

Not in a secular country.

I'm pretty sure "God" (by which I assume you mean 'the interpretation of the Bible I personally agree with') doesn't actually mention toplessness, anyway.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Not in a secular country.

I'm pretty sure "God" (by which I assume you mean 'the interpretation of the Bible I personally agree with') doesn't actually mention toplessness, anyway.

You know, regardless of whether a country is 'secular' or whatever, it's God's.
I'm pretty sure you don't have any idea of what I mean...but if you did, you'd disagree. Paul tells us, in many places, to be modest. Your own religion suggests we be chaste, and prudent. Anyway.

 

[Armoured]

You know, regardless of whether a country is 'secular' or whatever, it's God's.
I'm pretty sure you don't have any idea of what I mean...but if you did, you'd disagree. Paul tells us, in many places, to be modest. Your own religion suggests we be chaste, and prudent. Anyway.

Where's it written there's anything unchaste or immodest about being topless?

 

[~Anastasia~]

By all means, if we can't find a specific injunction, word for word, in Scripture, then surely it's a free-for-all?

I don't recall specific language against baring other body parts either, unless you want to stretch it and say not a woman on her menstual flow. Oh, but that gets back into sexual inequality and unfairness again, doesn't it?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Where's it written there's anything unchaste or immodest about being topless?

By action. Show me nudity in the New Testament, other than necessary nudity for bathing.

 

[dayhiker]

Paul lived and ministered in Greek towns. Public baths were were everyone went to use the bathroom, to wash, get massages and to be social. Some baths even had libraries where one could pick up a book and read it at the bath. Nudity was the way people were in the baths. Paul also used the Olympics as examples of how Christians should run the race. Racers and other participants in the Olympics were nude. We don't have any apostle talking about how shameful it was to go to the baths and be naked. If nudity was so shameful I don't think Paul would have been using them as examples of how Christians are to run the race.
There is not command to be nude in the Bible. Neither is there a command to be clothed. The commands to be clothed are around being clothed in the righteousness of Christ which we do by faith not by some physical act of putting on clothes.

 

[Sammy-San]

By all means, if we can't find a specific injunction, word for word, in Scripture, then surely it's a free-for-all?

I don't recall specific language against baring other body parts either, unless you want to stretch it and say not a woman on her menstual flow. Oh, but that gets back into sexual inequality and unfairness again, doesn't it?

Do you believe modesty is cultural or mostly absolute? I believe modesty largely is absolute.

 

[Armoured]

By action. Show me nudity in the New Testament, other than necessary nudity for bathing.

Do you dress, eat, live, and work like those in the New Testament, or is it just nudity you copy? Show me where the NT mentions indoor plumbing? I assume you don't think that absence makes the flush toilet immoral.

 

[Armoured]

Do you believe modesty is cultural or mostly absolute? I believe modesty largely is absolute.

Despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Do you believe modesty is cultural or mostly absolute? I believe modesty largely is absolute.

There are many aspects to modesty.

Most of them are absolute, but may be expressed differently according to culture.

But I'm afraid that question is a little too general, so my answer is also too general to be of use.

 

[Archivist]

Well, I listened to the whole thing. I actually agree with much of what she actually says. I would submit that the problems came from her youth group leaders, who might have been acting on the best information they had. I raised a daughter in church. When we got together for pool parties and such, yes, the girls wore t-shirts. SO DID THE BOYS.

Consistency is all that I have been arguing for in this thread.

I do believe that men in general are more visually directed in this than women are, but not completely. And women are less visually directed than men, but not to the point that the influence is zero. We are all on a continuum, and I would say if you averaged all men, and all women, those averages would show that men are more visually directed, on average than women. But neither is an absolute, except maybe in the case of rare individuals.

That's the reason that the argument that women going topless will cause men to sin doesn't hold water, since men going topless causes some women to sin but men do it all the time

I'm really not wanting to participate in this thread though. Too many side issues keep being brought up and serve as smokescreens, and too much sarcasm.

OK.

Men and women are physically different, despite what current sociological trends wish to push. It isn't discriminatory to say so. It is blind to deny it.

No one has said otherwise. In fact at one time men were also required to cover their different looking chests.

I have another idea. If the folks are so upset about men and women being treated differently according to their anatomy, have them start a petition to make it illegal for men to bare their chests in public. That would solve the problem, and then "everyone would be equal". But something tells me there would be a lot of backlash against that idea, and suddenly "equality" wouldn't be the main point on everyone's mind.

As I have pointed out numerous times, at one time men had to wear tops. It is too late to require that the establish equality. It isn't too late to make it legal for women to go topless.

Simple. Women have breasts. In our society, and virtually every civilized society through history, they have been covered. This is the social expectation. And from a Christian standpoint, it shouldn't be hard to figure out.

Actually nudity is accepted in many civilized nations.

Life is too short (literally) to spend pages and hours debating this.

Then why are you here?

Besides, anyone who is arguing for "equality" and saying women should go topless, you do realize that most people will assume you REALLY just want to see the boobs? So you're not exactly avoiding the appearance of evil there, are you?

Actually if you have read the thread you know that I have never said that women should go topless. I've said that they should have the right to do so. That decision should be an individual choice. If it were to become the norm it waouldn't be a big deal.

Causing all sorts of dissension, controversy, and disruption in the body. These are all things Scripture IS clear about.

Pushing for equality is hardly "causing all sorts of dissension, controversy, and disruption in the body."

"Loving" someone by arguing they should be able to walk around somewhat naked by society's standards is a little harder to defend.

But arresting topless women and jailing them for doing what men commonly do is perfectly fine.

 

[Archivist]

Do you believe modesty is cultural or mostly absolute? I believe modesty largely is absolute.

It is cultural.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Consistency is all that I have been arguing for in this thread.



That's the reason that the argument that women going topless will cause men to sin doesn't hold water, since men going topless causes some women to sin but men do it all the time



OK.



No one has said otherwise. In fact at one time men were also required to cover their different looking chests.



As I have pointed out numerous times, at one time men had to wear tops. It is too late to require that the establish equality. It isn't too late to make it legal for women to go topless.



Actually nudity is accepted in many civilized nations.



Then why are you here?



Actually if you have read the thread you know that I have never said that women should go topless. I've said that they should have the right to do so. That decision should be an individual choice. If it were to become the norm it waouldn't be a big deal.



Pushing for equality is hardly "causing all sorts of dissension, controversy, and disruption in the body."



But arresting topless women and jailing them for doing what men commonly do is perfectly fine.

Why I'm here is that a member quotes my posts and asks my opinion, and I don't wish to completely ignore anyone.




The rest ... I will only ask how do you know it's "too late" to make men wear shirts, but not too late to allow women to go topless?

 

[Archivist]

The rest ... I will only ask how do you know it's "too late" to make men wear shirts, but not too late to allow women to go topless?

Do you honestly think that the legislature of any state would adopt such a law or, if it were adopted, that the men of the state would follow it? I suspect that it would be like prohibition--it would become the most violated law in history. That ship has sailed.

Giving women equal rights, on the other hand, could easily be done. In several places, such as the Excelsior State, it has already been done.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Do you honestly think that the legislature of any state would adopt such a law or, if it were adopted, that the men of the state would follow it? I suspect that it would be like prohibition--it would become the most violated law in history. That ship has sailed.

Giving women equal rights, on the other hand, could easily be done. In several places, such as the Excelsior State, it has already been done.

You are actually missing my point. Never mind.