Should Genesis be taken literally?

[expos4ever]

This is not where I wanted this thread to go at all.

I understand to some degree (and, of course, I am one of the guilty parties).

On the other hand, I suggest that the same hand-to-hand would likely have transpired even if we stayed focused on the issues in the OP. After all, there will always be a vocal minority who will see any departures from a stifling literalism as a profound threat.

And to be sure I suggest that, the possible merits of their views notwithstanding, the "young earth creationists" here are exhibiting the behaviours of those who sense an existential threat - the bellicose rhetoric, the demonizing, the fantastical speculations linking belief in evolution to all manner of social evil. To be fair, the objectionable behaviour is not all on the one side; however, I suggest a cool third-person appraisal would show that most of it is.

 

[Speedwell]

Drew inevitably any discussion about the literalness of Genesis will break down into a discussion of evolution. The reason for that the vast majority of Christians that do not believe in a literal Genesis base that fact on evolution and not on Scripture itself. Thier father in evolution causes them to have to dismiss Genesis. It's interesting that some Christians defend the integrity of Scripture which is the inspired word of God and others defend evolution which is a product if mans thoughts.

Yet if you examine this thread carefully you will see that in fact it was the creationists who brought evolution into the discussion in this instance. In my case, for example, my objections to the literal inerrancy of Genesis are not based on evolution and would remain even if the theory were to be overturned.

 

[-57]

I have read the Bible many times. I do not disregard the Bible. Also to accuse me is considered a flame or a personal attack and it is a violation of the rules here on this forum.

No flame or personal attack intended.
When one denies the accuracy of Genesis...which tell of the fall of Adam and Eve..then is asked to explain where sin and our sin nature came from...and refuses to explain why Genesis is wrong...I consider it a disregard for Genesis.

If you consider it as a personal attack..then I feel sorry for you an ask that you leave the forum as you obviously can't handle criticism.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I am going to say this again, as CLEARLY as I can. You are talking about Science and Evolution as though the two words were interchangeable. Science is Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Astronomy, etc. Evolution is the interpretation of that Science.

Both creationists and evolutionists look at the same science. They merely interpret the same facts differently, in accordance with their corresponding beliefs. Creationists look at man - and see that they are created in God’s image. Evolutionists look at man - and see Goo to You, via the Zoo.

Evolution is not equal to science, of course, in the same way that squares are not equal to rectangles; evolution is certainly a secure part of science, and your denials will not remove it.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So, is it possible that this is what happened with Genesis? That after years of oral tradition some of the "facts" changed?

No this is not possible. God watches over His word to perform and to do what He says He is going to do. There is a mathematical precision. This is why the scribes were able to copy the word by hand for thousands of years without making any errors or mistakes. In computers they call this an algorithm and they even have programs that can identify the algorithm used by each author in the Bible.

Isaiah 55

10"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I would say....no you don't. Your creator is a mutation.

In my opinion you have changed the God of creation into a mutation. You have done away with original sin and the need for a savior.

You don't get to tell me what my faith is.

 

[-57]

1 Timothy 2:14 "Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." The word used here is "transgression" this means:

3847 parábasis (from 3844 /pará, "contrary" and bainō, "go") – properly, an "overstepping" (BAGD); a deliberate going over "the line." 3847 ("a stepping over the line") in the NT refers to the willful disregard (breaking) of God's law which defies His drawn-lines (boundaries); an arrogant "over-stepping."

Jesus teaches us that we are to pray: "Thy Will be done." This involves the Holiness of God. I tend to follow the Holiness teachings of John Wesley. We are to be sanctified and set apart for God's purpose. If we do not live Holy Sanctified lives before God we may still be saved but we will not be used by God. For many are called but few are chosen. Few people answer the call to live the life that God is calling us to live.

The Bible says we are to purify our flesh, this is our garment and this is what the Bride must do to prepare for the return of the Bridegroom: "They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white" Also we read about Oil for our lamp. This means we are to be Filled with the Spirit of God. The christians that live in the flesh will be "left behind" and they will go into the tribulation period. They do not even believe in a pre trib rapture so they admit that they will go into the tribulation period. Just like atheists admit in the end they will perish and be destroyed.

We have to be careful what words we use because our words are a demonstration of our faith and Jesus says: "According to your faith be it unto you." Matthew 9:29

Are you now saying Adam was a literal, historical individual?

 

[joshua 1 9]

If you consider it as a personal attack..then I feel sorry for you an ask that you leave the forum as you obviously can't handle criticism.

I can handle criticism but you have the burden of explaining to people what you are talking about. I do not deny Genesis. I believe in a literal interpretation. Adam and Eve were real people that lived in a real Garden of Eden around 6,000 years ago. Perhaps it is your turn to answer some questions and you can tell us just what is the tree that Eve at from? Just what was her sin?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Are you now saying Adam was a literal, historical individual?

Yes of course he was. We have physical evidence for that in the study of the DNA today.

 

[-57]

You don't get to tell me what my faith is.

I don't know what your faith is...I simply presented my OPINION. Judging from your post you disagree with Genesis where it says Adam was made from the dust then Eve from Adams rib.
You seem to deny the literal fall in the garden of Eden.

i ask you, why do we sin? Where did our sin nature come from?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Evolution is not equal to science, of course, in the same way that squares are not equal to rectangles; evolution is certainly a secure part of science, and your denials will not remove it.

If you want to remove evolution then you have to come up with something better to replace it with.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Mods, if this isn't in the right section please move, I wasn't sure where the best place for this discussion would be, as this has more to do with the entire book and not only creation.

Genesis is the history of Israel's roots...most believe Moses to be the author of the book, and if we go by the chronology from Genesis to Exodus, he wouldn't have been born until a couple thousand years after the account of Adam. Prior to this, these stories would have been handed down through oral tradition.

When stories are told from one generation to the next things change. Some things may be added, others taken away...things become embellished...that's just how it is. It doesn't mean that anyone is lying, necessarily, just that what we hear as a child and what we teach to our children about a subject may change slightly based on our recollection. And then there are those that like to add their own spin to make things more interesting, and it sticks...

A good, more modern example of this would be the story of Jesse James...many accounts made him out to be a Robin Hood of his day, only stealing from the rich and helping the poor...after the Civil War there was a lot of distrust in this country, and people wanted a hero they found him in this notorious outlaw...the truth of the matter was he was your typical run of the mill thief...albeit a very good one...but stories were made up about him in newspapers, books and songs...and now, 140 years later, there are those that think he was, as the "The Ballad of Jesse James" said, "a friend to the poor that would never have a brother suffer pain." In this instance, of course, we can look back at actual accounts from the day and easily put these claims to rest.

So, is it possible that this is what happened with Genesis? That after years of oral tradition some of the "facts" changed? I'm not saying this as a dig at creationism, or anything like that. Nor am I saying that there is no truth to be found in Genesis...I believe it paints a beautiful picture of creation, of God's desire to have a relationship with His people, of man's biggest obstacle to overcome being his sinful nature, and how the foundation was being laid for the Christ.

There was a time when Genesis was interpreted literally. This was a time when men knew nothing else but the words of Genesis. Now that we have learned of the great age of the earth, and the common origin of all life through evolution, we look back on Genesis with a new understanding. Those of us who believe the Bible to be God's word must re-interpret what we see there.

As for myself, I view the "yoms" of Genesis as poetic descriptions of creation, each of the six periods discussing an aspect of God's creation. They are not arranged in chronological order, they are arranged topically, and if one compares them to the actual unfolding of our world, they clearly have some overlapping.

Noah's flood I take to be a flood following the end of the last ice age, and taking in all the world known to Noah.

The extended years of the fathers in Genesis I take to be honorific numbers, not literal numbers. They were reworked to make them somewhat consistent before our final version of the Hebrew scriptures was achieved; variations in those numbers are still seen in the Septuagint, the Samaratan pentateuch, and the dead sea scrolls.

Adam was the first man to be ensouled. I have no problem viewing Eve as taken from his rib, but there were other members of Homo Sapiens around.

So I hope these comments shed a little light on how I handle the questions you raised in your opening post.

 

[Speedwell]

And to be sure I suggest that, the possible merits of their views notwithstanding, the "young earth creationists" here are exhibiting the behaviours of those who sense an existential threat - the bellicose rhetoric, the demonizing, the fantastical speculations linking belief in evolution to all manner of social evil.

But one wonders what this existential threat is supposed to be endangering. The leading Evangelical theologians of the 19th century, people like Hodge and Warfield for example, found little difficulty accepting the great age of the Earth and the evolution of the other creatures, only holding out for the special creation of man. I sometimes think that what is really being defended here is the doctrine of Dispensationalism, but that our creationist colleagues are for some reason unwilling to admit it openly.

 

[-57]

I can handle criticism but you have the burden of explaining to people what you are talking about. I do not deny Genesis. I believe in a literal interpretation. Adam and Eve were real people that lived in a real Garden of Eden around 6,000 years ago. Perhaps it is your turn to answer some questions and you can tell us just what is the tree that Eve at from? Just what was her sin?

The tree was caled the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. We know it was located in the center of the garden. We know it bore fruit. We don't know what kind of fruit it was. We know God told Adam not to eat from it. Eve also knew she shouldn't eat from the tree.

Romans 5:19 tells us the sin was disobedience....... For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Where did our sin nature come from?

In order to understand sin you have to understand free will. We are given freedom of choice. If we did not have this freedom then we would be slaves.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Romans 8

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

If you want to remove evolution then you have to come up with something better to replace it with.

Exactly so! No theory ever leaves science until a better one replaces it.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I don't know what your faith is...I simply presented my OPINION. Judging from your post you disagree with Genesis where it says Adam was made from the dust then Eve from Adams rib.
You seem to deny the literal fall in the garden of Eden.

i ask you, why do we sin? Where did our sin nature come from?

Is this what really happened?

It was a dark and stormy night. Lucifer, enjoying the destructive actions of the storm, could almost forget the pain of his banishment from the regions of light to this God-forsaken planet. It was a lot better than being cast into hell. Fortunate was he to possess the stewardship title to this place, issued before the unfortunate incident that the so-called good angels called his rebellion. Few and meager were the spoils left him from before his fall. He did have, still, an invitation to convene with the other sons of God at a far future time in heaven, and he was relishing how his appearance there would cause general consternation. It would be good to get off this planet for a moment at least . . .

Lucifer's musings were interrupted by a demonic visitation.

"Greetings, excellent son of the dawn, lord of our light, wisdom of the world, chief of the powers of the air, great dragon", muttered a craven Beelzebub, rushing through the required honorifics. "We have stumbled upon a region on this planet we are not allowed to enter".

"WHAT"? roared the fallen lord of this earth. "That's contrary to my entitlement! Show me the place!"

In a moment, Lucifer and Beelzebub were there. Sure enough, guardian angels barred them from going past a hedge that surrounded the garden of Eden. Every time they tried to force their way in, they were turned back.

Nursing his hurts, Lucifer pondered the irony; he had been so proud when Divine Omniscience had instructed him to share his new, unheard of ideas about defense and attack with Michael back in his days before his banishment. Now his own lessons - Michael knew everything about war that he did - were being turned against him.

He decided to try reasonable debate.

"Why, Michael, are you hindering me from walking on this part of my lawful estate?" he bawled out.

"Oh, its the universal law of justice. You damned and unlawful spirits are not allowed to deal with a free willed creature who bears the image of God."

"WHAT?" roared Lucifer. "That's a blatant violation of my contractural rights to this place! Don't you know I'm the sole proprietor here? You can't bring one of those half breed animal - spirit things to MY domain!"

"Silly demon", sniffed Michael, "Nobody imported this creature here, he evolved naturally, and therefore is rightfully here on his own. And his rights to an uncontaminated spiritual bond with God trump your rights to the place. "

Lucifer looked around, abashed. Sure enough, while he had been brooding for the past 65 million years, ever since he first expressed his rage on the life of this planet on his arrival, hominids had evolved a surprising amount of intelligence. There were lots of them all over the middle east and Africa, but none had any souls . . . yet.

He had spent much time, recently, admiring beetles. Such elegant, endlessly beautiful forms . . . They had been a distraction all along, to keep him from noticing the hominids!

"This man", continued Michael, "started thinking there must be a creator and God. This automatically entitled him to complete protection from such as you and we made this garden for him. He has become an immortal soul. He has a wife now, taken from his own flesh, they two are going to reproduce, enlarge the garden, awaken to understanding eternity their brothers and sisters after the flesh, and when there is no place left on earth for you and your ilk, you will go to . . . . "

He merely pointed in the extra dimensional direction to the place prepared for Lucifer and his followers. No more needed to be said.

Lucifer quailed. His doom was sure. He remembered a prophecy that had been made - that from the earth itself a living being would come that would redeem the planet from his rule and cast him out to his prepared destiny. Not that he was happy now, he definately wanted to postpone such an event. This monstrous improper blend of animal and spirit - if he merely started sharing his ideas of eternity, God, the spiritual realm . . . the other homo sapiens would awaken to become immortal souls! The whole planet could become infested with enough spiritually able residents to banish him from his only refuge! As for the time it would take - in just a hundred generations, even less, spiritual humanity could fill the globe, leaving him no place to roam! Clearly his time was short.

Back at his lair, he brooded. So long ago, it seemed an eternity now, but he clearly remembered the committee meeting the holy angels had devoted to the creation of this planet. It had taken them six days to design the world and its life forms, how it would be, and they had set up the initial conditions to make them come about through the natural operation of God's laws. As part of the divine allocation of angelic responsibilities, the earth had been assigned to him. When he had been cast out of heaven, the assignment was still valid, because it had been an eternal assignement. And now . . . it must not escape him!

Finally Lucifer came up with a plan. If he could not enter Eden directly, he could enter Eden, perhaps, by remote control. And if even an angel such as myself can rebel, perhaps the new creature - what was its name? Adam? could be enduced to rebel. Maybe even then could be remotely controlled!

He tried remote control on various species, and found it could be accomplished. Soon, a nearby tree snake wandered across the hedge about Eden and began to have conversation with the inhabitants. The plan was simple - get them to sin. Of course, since this naieve couple had all their needs met, were perfectly happy, it was a minor difficulty to even figure out how they COULD sin. They didn't even seem to have been given any moral guidance he could use to coax them to rebel with.

Meanwhile, a truly terrible set of events was taking place. The couple was being educated. Fruit had been prepared with special nerve pattern altering compounds . . . they only had to eat a fruit and learn. Already they had learned a lot about language, mathematics, how to till the ground and raise crops, how to domesticate animals . . . . it wouldn't be long before the present boundaries of Eden would be enlarged or bypasssed.

Then one day Eve happened to mention something about a certain tree . . . that carried the knowledge of good and evil. But it wasn't time to eat it yet.

What if they learned it out of sequence?

 

[joshua 1 9]

holding out for the special creation of man.

The Creator became a part of His Creation. "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." John1:14

 

[joshua 1 9]

Then one day Eve happened to mention something about a certain tree . . . that carried the knowledge of good and evil.

The Bible does not say what tree this was but people say that Eve ate from an Apple tree. We know that apple trees did not evolve they are a hybrid that man creates when he grafts the branch from one tree into another tree. This is a tree created by artificial selection not natural selection. Today they can make a tree with 40 different kinds of fruit.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The tree was caled the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. We know it was located in the center of the garden. We know it bore fruit. We don't know what kind of fruit it was. We know God told Adam not to eat from it. Eve also knew she shouldn't eat from the tree.

Romans 5:19 tells us the sin was disobedience....... For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

Then we are told that they were not allowed to eat from the tree of life. We do not hear about the tree or life until Rev 22: "On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life,and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Adam was not only sent to till the ground, we know he was the first to till the ground. We are told in Rev 2:5 "there was not a man to till the ground." Now the ground was cursed and he would have to deal with thorns and thistles. There were no weeds in the garden of Eden but now He was going to have to deal with weeds.