Supersessionism and Antisemitism

[jerry kelso]

Do you mean "Mitzvah"?

yeshuahaderekh,

1. Yes, sorry, I had to hurry to work from break time. Jerry kelso

 

[BobRyan]

Supersessionism is the idea that physical Israel is no longer Israel; that the Church is now Israel.

• God is done with them, they are abandoned.
• The Jews are now cursed as a people.
• They no longer have any promises -- all their promises are now promises of the Church.

There is no question that there are Christians today who hold these views who are not antisemite. There are Christians today who are opposed to the Jewish State of Israel who are not antisemite. The question is not whether Supersessionism always produces antisemitism, but rather if it is nevertheless a causative agent.

Well a great many denominations do hold to the Romans 2 statement about a Jew not being a physical Jew but rather the true Jew is a spiritual one -- in the eyes of God, and yet they are not at all antisemite.

Lateran IV was an ecumenical council that called infallibly for the "extermination" of heretics and Jews. According to "some".

The most common reason I have heard for antisemitism is that " The Jews crucified Christ" and the idea is that Christians would not want to treat them well since some ancestor of theirs crucified Christ.

My ancestors were Vikings - I would not want someone coming after me because Vikings demonstrated poor social skills at some point in the past.

There is absolutely no question that this sort of teaching, that God is done with Israel, that its promises no longer exist, that it is a cursed people, opened the door for horrific antisemitism in the Church.

There is in fact a great deal that is questionable about that bit of speculation.

The Jewish nation in the OT was the chosen "evangelist" -- God had a 'nation church' with a priesthood started by God and it was "the ONE true Church" of the OT. In the NT that nation church model died - no more was God using the Jews for any special purpose His "God so Loved the World" Gospel agenda. Rather He was desperately trying to convert them "He came to His own - and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Your argument amounts to the idea that Christians would attack any group that was not "a nation Church" since Israel is no longer in God's "nation church" model. And we both know that is not true in real life.

We never hear antisemites yelling "no longer a nation-church so now we want to burn your synagogue". And we both know it.

Far more often do you hear them say something about 'Christ-killer'.

But it would be pretty hard to condemn all Christians on the planet who admitted with Peter that it was the Jews that had Christ killed as Peter says in Acts 2 - as if to agree with Peter is to then become an antisemite. Peter did no harm to his fellow Jews nor did he threaten to harm them -- yet HE says "you killed" Christ - to them in Acts 2.

"God so loved the WORLD that He gave" and that includes Jews. Your OP makes it appear that if God only loves Jews the way he loves the rest of us - then this is the heart and soul of antisemetism.

No antisemite group yells out "God only loves you the way He loves me - so now we need to spray paint messages on your synagogue"... and we all know it.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, I fully accept the book of Hebrews which declares the Mosaic Covenant inferior to the New Covenant.

However, it never says that

• The church is now Israel.
• That God is done with Israel
• The Jews are now cursed
• They no longer have the promises -- all the promises now belong to the Church.

Until you read Hebrews 8:6-10

 

[jerry kelso]

Until you read Hebrews 8:6-10

bobryan,

1. There's no scripture that says the body of Christ as the church today is physical Israel and has inherited their gifts and callings concerning the millennial kingdom.
Those are eternal covenants concerning only Israel specifically Genesis 12-15; 2 Samuel 1:16; 1 Chronicles 28:2-8; Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 66-6-9; Ezekiel 37:24:28 etc.

2. Romans 2 is addressed directly to Jews of the age of Moses law not New covenant believers. Romans 2:17-29.
Verse 17 the Jews rested in the law not gentiles for they were never under the Mosaic law ever which was given specifically to Israel who came out of Israel from slavery and were given the 10 commandments etc. and to whom Paul said in Ephesians 2:12 that Gentiles were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel.

3. All the verses from 17-23 culminates in who the subject is is real Jews in verse 24; for the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you.....goes on to talk about circumcision which the Jews did under the law as referenced in Romans 3:1-2 for unto the Jews were committed the oracles of God.
The real Jew is a new covenant believer that is that has had circumcision of the heart and not one outwardly in the flesh Romans 2:28-29.
Because the wall of partition has been broken down between Jews and Gentiles and we can be saved because of the New Covenant and our hearts have received the circumcision of the heart we can be considered a spiritual Jew verses 28-29.
This has nothing to do with becoming or being Physical Israel now just because we are in the church age of Jews and Gentiles in one body alike Ephesians 2:14-16; 3:4-6.
We will rulership positions in the KoH reign on earth 1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 2:26; 5:10 and that is what we are being trained for now 2 Timothy 2:12.
The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church Matthew 16:18.
Israel on the other hand has to be purged and Repent to fulfill their covenants Daniel 9:24-27; 12-1-2; with Matthew 24:15-21; these involve the AOD and the time of Jacob's trouble which begins in the 2nd half of the tribulation in Revelation 12 in which Israel as the Sun Clothed Woman is fleeing into the wilderness from the dragon who is using the Antichrist armies. This is turning point of the tribulation for the dragon gives his power, seat, and authority to the Antichrist Revelation 13:1:2.

4. The Jewish believers today are not cursed for they are in the church Romans 2:17-29 and 11:7; Ephesians 2:14:-16 and 3:4:and the curse has been lifted Galatians 3:13.

5. The physical nation of Israel as a whole is backslidden and cursed started with their rejection of the KoH and KoG message Jesus preached in the gospels Matthew 4:17; 6:33; Luke 17:20; 23:37-39; Matthew 24:1-2. This is why 70 A.D. happened Matthew 24:1-2 and why today they are blinded 2 Corinthians 3:14:15 and cannot receive the gifts and callings concerning the KoH Romans 11:25-29.
But they will eventually Matthew 23:38-39; Romans 11:25-29 and 2Corinthians 3:13-16. Jerry kelso

 

[miknik5]

Wow!

Talk about separating what GOD never intended to separate

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. There's no scripture that says the body of Christ as the church today is physical Israel

Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Heb 8
8“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Like many other Christians on this board -- I am a New Covenant Christian. But not a physical Jew.

 

[jerry kelso]

Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Heb 8
8“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Like many other Christians on this board -- I am a New Covenant Christian. But not a physical Jew.

bobryan,

1. A New Covenant Christian? That wasn't the point. That is why a gentile Christian can be called a spiritual Jew. It is in the context of salvation.
The physical Jew according to their promise of the physical land starting in Genesis 12:1-3-15 which will be the land for the tribes of Israel in the KoH which one can see in Revelation 7:4-8.
Israel was the great nation in which all the families will be blessed. This was under the age of the Mosaic law Genesis 12:2;1-3.
Jesus even taught it at the end of the Mosaic law in the Sermon on the Mount Matthew 5:5; Blessed are the meek for they shall "INHERIT THE EARTH".
Verse 3 was the context for verse 5 which was the KoH.
Verse 4 was blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted. Mourn means to repent which is the same as Matthew 4:17.
The Jews had to recognize Messiah John 1:31 and repent Matthew 4:17.
This was through the spiritual aspect of the KoG Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20-21.
Today the nation is backslidden and has not entered into the New Covenant Hebrews 8:6-13 and cannot fulfill their gifts and callings Romans 11:25-29.
They will in the future tribulation receive the Kingdom reign Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 66:8-9; Ezekiel 37:16-24-28.

2. Not a physical Jew?
Of course you are not a physical Jew otherwise you would understand the KoH and the KoG message is was and is and will be an eternal reign even after the KoH becomes one with the universal KoG so God can be all in all
1 Corinthians 15:28.

3. There is no scripture that says the Church age saints will be at the Head of the nations in the KoH, but there is for Israel.
There is no scripture that says the Church age saints will be judged by the nation of Israel by King David, but King David will rule over Israel Ezekiel 37:24 and even the 12 disciples in Jesus day will judge the 12 tribes of Israel Matthew 19:28.
There is no scripture that says the church age saints have to be purged in the time of Jacob's trouble but there is with Israel Isaiah 66:8-9; Jeremiah 30:6-7; Daniel 9:24-27; 12:1; Matthew 24:15-21; Revelation 12.

4. The true Church age saints in the body of Christ are not backslidden and are being trained through our sufferings to reign in the physical Kingdom which will be the KoH Millennial Kingdom 2 Timothy 2:12.
There is no scripture that says the church will be purged in the time of Jacob's trouble in order to gain entrance into the physical KoH.
So if one believes that Israel's earthly gifts and callings ended when they rejected Christ at the first coming have no scripture to back their position up.
It was promised to the nation of Israel that is eternal and not the church age saints for they were not even around in the Old Covenant era.
The point is that the church age saints have not taken Israel's earthly callings concerning the land and the kingdom in the millennial kingdom reign because of being a spiritual Jew in the context of the mystery of the church Ephesians 3:6 or the grafting in the Olive Tree Romans 11:11.
Romans 11:2; God has not cast away his people which he foreknew. This is the nation of Israel not the church.
Verse 5 is the remnant of NC Jewish believers to keep the hope of the promise of the KoH reign.
The remnant is never mentioned as the church, but it as Israel Isaiah 1:9; Revelation 11:13; 12:17.

Keep the callings of the nation of Israel and the church age saints of Jews and Gentile believers separate; otherwise one will go scripturally awryand wrongly divided the word. Jerry kelso

 

[BobRyan]

bobryan,

1. There's no scripture that says the body of Christ as the church today is physical Israel

Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Heb 8
8“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Like many other Christians on this board -- I am a New Covenant Christian. But not a physical Jew.

bobryan,

1. A New Covenant Christian? That wasn't the point

On the contrary - that was exactly the point in my post because it addresses the issue of all Christians under the New Covenant being called "the house of Israel" and the "House of Judah".

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

. That is why a gentile Christian can be called a spiritual Jew. It is in the context of salvation.

Indeed and the Hebrews 8 statement is an exact quote of the same point being made in Jeremiah 31:31-33.

Jesus even taught it at the end of the Mosaic law in the Sermon on the Mount Matthew 5:5; Blessed are the meek for they shall "INHERIT THE EARTH".

And in the NEW Earth of Revelation 21 - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND Come before Me to worship".

For all eternity - the saints inherit the earth -- after the 1000 year millennium - at the point of Revelation 21. But more specifically they are "Israel" and in Romans 2 "Jews".

Romans 2 does not say 'some day in the future' it says that it is already the case.

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Today the nation is backslidden and has not entered into the New Covenant Hebrews 8:6-13

True but Christians are under the New Covenant.

Of course you are not a physical Jew otherwise you would understand the KoH and the KoG message is was and is and will be an eternal reign

Romans 2 does not say 'someday this will be true' - Romans 2 says it is already true.

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Same for Romans 9
Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


The Hebrews 8 NEW Covenant Christian does not wait to become a New Covenant Christian - but is already one and already is called "Israel".

 

[jerry kelso]

Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Heb 8
8“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Like many other Christians on this board -- I am a New Covenant Christian. But not a physical Jew.



On the contrary - that was exactly the point in my post because it addresses the issue of all Christians under the New Covenant being called "the house of Israel" and the "House of Judah".

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???



Indeed and the Hebrews 8 statement is an exact quote of the same point being made in Jeremiah 31:31-33.



And in the NEW Earth of Revelation 21 - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND Come before Me to worship".

For all eternity - the saints inherit the earth -- after the 1000 year millennium - at the point of Revelation 21. But more specifically they are "Israel" and in Romans 2 "Jews".

Romans 2 does not say 'some day in the future' it says that it is already the case.

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.



True but Christians are under the New Covenant.



Romans 2 does not say 'someday this will be true' - Romans 2 says it is already true.

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Same for Romans 9
Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


The Hebrews 8 NEW Covenant Christian does not wait to become a New Covenant Christian - but is already one and already is called "Israel".

bobryan,

1. There is no scripture that calls the church the House of Israel or the House of Judah.

2. Only physical Israel is called the House of Israel and House of Judah.

3. Only Israel will be at the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom reign with the twelve tribes of Israel being judged by the 12 disciples of Jesus.

4. King David will be the King over Israel the nation.

5. The law will go forth from Zion which is and will be in Israel forever.

6. There is no scripture that says the church will fulfill Israel's earthly gifts or callings concerning the land and the KoH.

7. Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13 are the same. The New Covenant happened at Calvary but the nation of physical Israel has never entered into the New Covenant and will not until the millennial kingdom age when they Repent but those in the church have received the New Covenant and will have rulership positions throughout the millennial reign but not at the head of the nations. You agree or not? Jerry kelso

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Then I suppose that Arthur Koestler, an Ashkenazim Jew, is an anti-semite and anti-zionist for writing the "13th Tribe" in 1975 detailing with Arabic, Russian, Byzantium and Jewish sources the narrative of Khazaria.

 

[miknik5]

Some important information


Do not treat an alien as an alien
The alien amongst you who wishes to celebrate the Passover must also be circumcised

Those called of GOD were told to celebrate the Passover as a lasting ordinance.

Which passover?

 

[Meowzltov]

Nonsensical? That is ridiculous!
I am very methodical and logical in my thinking.

I'm afraid not. The posts in question were bad enough that there was really nothing for me to reply to. You can quote scriptures galore, but if they are a part are posts that are not rational, then they are just random scriptures.

 

[Meowzltov]

Thank you for this. I get sick of people bringing up the same old Khazar myth when Science has obliterated it.

 

[miknik5]

I am waiting for someone to respond to Haggai 2

I am wondering if the WORD of GOD which came to those under THE LAW declared ALL unclean

High priest included

Who can be declared clean before HIM

 

[Meowzltov]

open heart,

1. I was only talking about one person's will who then decides to make another will and does away with the first one. Why? The second one is new and different.
There are people who draw up a will with someone being a beneficiary and could be replaced and have more changes of more or different information and draw up a new will and the Old will is nullified and void.
What is so illogical of that example?

2. Your scenario was two different contracts with two different parties that had no connection to each other except they both live in Dodge City. I have no disagreement with that but it doesn't fit or address what I was talking about and I find that as not being perceptive in proper understanding of what I said and is on the fringe of being illogical because it was either truly misunderstood or deliberate as in spinning or being confused or whatever and probably only and God would know. Jerry kelso

In contract law, an original contract may be amended IF (and this is important) the same two original parties both agree and sign in writing that they agree to amending the old contract. This much I learned from Judge Judy. LOL That never happened with the Jews.

As far as actually ENDING a contract and starting a whole new contract, I'm afraid I don't know enough about contract law to speak. If anyone in here is an attorney, I'd be interested in hearing from them how to END a contract that is ongoing.

You also have a difference of parties concerning the Mosaic covenant and the New Covenant. Although everyone lives on Earth, the Mosaic covenant was made only with the People of Israel, a very small part of all the people on earth. The New Covenant was made with ALL of humanity. Because the parties involved are different, it is impossible for the New Covenant to replace the Old.

 

[miknik5]

I fear that no one wants to respond to Haggai 2 because what is said is clear that no one can come up into HIS PRESENCE unless HE washes and does for us what we can not do for ourselves

But only that, it causes one to take note that if there are no longer any earthly high priests acceptable in HIS sight who can offer up any acceptable and holy offering

Since through the hands of ALL declared unclean, it renders the offerings also unclean

 

[miknik5]

HAGGAI 2 raises a BIG problem for both the building of another temple and the reinstating of sacrifices

A BIG PROBLEM

 

[Meowzltov]

Do you mean "Mitzvah"?

It was probably a typo. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[miknik5]

This is where a good reading and studying of Hebrews might be a benefit and a blessing to ALL

 

[miknik5]

HAGGAI 2

Any help here from anyone?