Supersessionism and Antisemitism

[ToBeLoved]

Actually I don't. The default position is that the original covenant stands unless you can prove that it doesn't. You haven't proven it.

And you should live under that covenant if that is what you want to do. But then why do you claim Jesus then? That is not His covenant, so what I don't understand is why you claim Him then if you have chosen the Old Covenant. Then live your truth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Disagree. If that was true, Jesus wouldn't have taught to obey his commandments, nor would the apostles have taught to obey the commands.

I would say that you should do some study into what the Bible says about covenants and what they are. Because there is a lot you do not understand or maybe it is just that you don't want to read what the words say, but you want to hear what you want to read.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Disagree. If that was true, Jesus wouldn't have taught to obey his commandments, nor would the apostles have taught to obey the commands.

Jesus brought in the New Covenant with His death. You obviously have a big conflict here in your beliefs or do not understand why Jesus died or what He died to give us. You don't really understand what Christ was doing here then.

Why did God sacrifice His Son? What changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant in your opinion?

 

[Meowzltov]

And you should live under that covenant if that is what you want to do. But then why do you claim Jesus then? That is not His covenant, so what I don't understand is why you claim Him then if you have chosen the Old Covenant. Then live your truth.

I obey the Torah because I love God -- the Old Covenant is my birthright as a Jew.

I accept the New Covenant because I am a human being, a sinner, in need of salvation.

 

[Meowzltov]

Why did God sacrifice His Son? What changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant in your opinion?

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As Jesus told the rich man, the way to obtain eternal life was to keep the commandments. That was the old way. But someone who keeps the New Covenant, we keep the Torah out of Love for God. Heaven is obtained via grace.

 

[jerry kelso]

I obey the Torah because I love God -- the Old Covenant is my birthright as a Jew.

I accept the New Covenant because I am a human being, a sinner, in need of salvation.

openheart,

1. The Old Covenant is a contract separate from the New Covenant contract.

2. The reason they are separate is because it was done away and abolished.
2 Corinthians 3:7; glory was to be done away.
Verse 11; for if that which is done away was glorious.
Verse 14; which vail is done away in Christ.
Verse 13; and not as Moses which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which was abolished.

3. If the Old Covenant had not been done away with or abolished then they would not be separate contracts.
Since they were, thus, a change of administration happened in the New Covenant.

4. Galatians 5:3; For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to all the law.
Circumcision was under the Old Covenant.

5. The commandments were mandatory to the letter though the physical circumcision could never save anyone.

6. Physical circumcision was a type replaced by the spiritual circumcision of the heart which Christ does in the act of salvation.

7. The law was a covenant of types and shadows and was abolished when the realities of those shadows appeared.

8. There are eternal truths throughout each age that are always applicable but sometimes set in a different context and administered differently etc.

9. The point is that one cannot do the whole Torah like in Moses day for we know that is plain that the sacrificial system of there ceremonial commandments were done away with Ephesians 2:15.

10. The Ten Commandments according to Moses ethic with specific judgements of curses just like stoning for adultery etc. like in the story of the adulterous woman.

11. The Ten Commandments according to Moses ethic was done away and abolished according to 2 Corinthians 3:7,11,13.
It could not be the meaning of the moral law within itself otherwise people would not be punished for sin.
It had to be the whole context of the covenant which in this case would be
the connection with the specific mandatory judgements of the blessing and cursing system.

12. Doing the letter of the law was performing the commandments so you would be blessed and if you failed you would be cursed which was all mandatory. This was do something to attain something. Today we do automatically because of Christ finished work and who we are in him.

13. Doing the commandments had a weakness because of the self effort mechanism that lost out to the law of sin and death Romans 7.

14. You can perform whatever part of the Torah is in the NC and it's standard.

15. Your birthright as a Jew is more of an implication to Commandments of general rules of living of Judaism as long as it is understood in the whole perspective of the NC and not as it applied o the Old understanding such as a type etc.
The law was given by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Moses had grace and truth and Christ has the law of Christ so it had to be talking in the whole of the context.
It would be better to say that you abide by the Torah according to the
NC standards and not the Old Covenant way of Moses.
Your birthright started with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob physically as a nation Genesis 12-15 and spiritually salvation without works Romans 4:5
and commandments of Moses in the context of the summary of the whole Torah Exodus 20 til the seed should come to bring the promises of Abraham Galatians 3:19 through the law of Christ Acts 13:39 Galatians 6:2 Jerry kelso

 

[Meowzltov]

openheart,

1. The Old Covenant is a contract separate from the New Covenant contract.

2. The reason they are separate is because it was done away and abolished.
2 Corinthians 3:7; glory was to be done away.
Verse 11; for if that which is done away was glorious.
Verse 14; which vail is done away in Christ.
Verse 13; and not as Moses which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which was abolished.

3. If the Old Covenant had not been done away with or abolished then they would not be separate contracts.
Since they were, thus, a change of administration happened in the New Covenant.

4. Galatians 5:3; For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to all the law.
Circumcision was under the Old Covenant.

5. The commandments were mandatory to the letter though the physical circumcision could never save anyone.

6. Physical circumcision was a type replaced by the spiritual circumcision of the heart which Christ does in the act of salvation.

7. The law was a covenant of types and shadows and was abolished when the realities of those shadows appeared.

8. There are eternal truths throughout each age that are always applicable but sometimes set in a different context and administered differently etc.

9. The point is that one cannot do the whole Torah like in Moses day for we know that is plain that the sacrificial system of there ceremonial commandments were done away with Ephesians 2:15.

10. The Ten Commandments according to Moses ethic with specific judgements of curses just like stoning for adultery etc. like in the story of the adulterous woman.

11. The Ten Commandments according to Moses ethic was done away and abolished according to 2 Corinthians 3:7,11,13.
It could not be the meaning of the moral law within itself otherwise people would not be punished for sin.
It had to be the whole context of the covenant which in this case would be
the connection with the specific mandatory judgements of the blessing and cursing system.

12. Doing the letter of the law was performing the commandments so you would be blessed and if you failed you would be cursed which was all mandatory. This was do something to attain something. Today we do automatically because of Christ finished work and who we are in him.

13. Doing the commandments had a weakness because of the self effort mechanism that lost out to the law of sin and death Romans 7.

14. You can perform whatever part of the Torah is in the NC and it's standard.

15. Your birthright as a Jew is more of an implication to Commandments of general rules of living of Judaism as long as it is understood in the whole perspective of the NC and not as it applied o the Old understanding such as a type etc.
The law was given by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Moses had grace and truth and Christ has the law of Christ so it had to be talking in the whole of the context.
It would be better to say that you abide by the Torah according to the
NC standards and not the Old Covenant way of Moses.
Your birthright started with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob physically as a nation Genesis 12-15 and spiritually salvation without works Romans 4:5
and commandments of Moses in the context of the summary of the whole Torah Exodus 20 til the seed should come to bring the promises of Abraham Galatians 3:19 through the law of Christ Acts 13:39 Galatians 6:2 Jerry kelso

Dear, dear. I can't even get to your later points, because your whole argument derails at the beginning with fallacious reasoning. The are not separate because one is abolished -- that is simply unwarranted. And your scriptures do not talk about the Law. What was abolished was the veil. Point 3 is also nonsensical, completely unwarranted. You might as well be saying that frogs hopped faster yesterday therefore the price of milk will drop.

 

[jerry kelso]

Dear, dear. I can't even get to your later points, because your whole argument derails at the beginning with fallacious reasoning. The are not separate because one is abolished -- that is simply unwarranted. And your scriptures do not talk about the Law. What was abolished was the veil. Point 3 is also nonsensical, completely unwarranted. You might as well be saying that frogs hopped faster yesterday therefore the price of milk will drop.

openheart,

1. You are making opinionated accusations and opinionated conclusions and not even backing them up. So that post shows no evidence and thus, no validity.

2. Do you agree when a legal "Old Will Contract"legally is abolished the "New Will Contract is legally binding and is not the "Old Will Contract"?

3. Do you agree that the "New Will Contract" can contain same things done the same way and different ways from the "Old Will Contract" and contain new things as well?
A simple yes or no and explain why?

4. Do you agree your birthright as a Jew involves customs and culture such as bar mitzvah and wearing minuzas, Jewish worship etc.?
Do you also agree that performing all or some of the the commandments can still be performed from the "Old Covenant" but in a different context with different motives or Spirit according to the mechanics of the "NC Context" and thus not being the "Old Covenant?
Yes or no and why? Jerry kelso

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

openheart,

4. Do you agree your birthright as a Jew involves customs and culture such as bar mitzvah and wearing minuzas, Jewish worship etc.?

What's a "minuza"??? Jews wear Kippahs...put Mezuzot on our door posts...

 

[miknik5]

This is an unwarranted conclusion.

I look to Moses to tell me what God expects of me as a Jew.

I look to the Moshiach for my hope.

Moses will testify against you

 

[jerry kelso]

What's a "minuza"??? Jews wear Kippahs...put Mezuzot on our door posts...

yeshuahaderekh,

1. Sorry it is mezuzah and the Jews put it on the door to fulfill mitvah to remind them of the Shema.

 

[Meowzltov]

1. You are making opinionated accusations and opinionated conclusions and not even backing them up. So that post shows no evidence and thus, no validity.

I attacked your logic, which was nonsensical. You came to unwarranted conclusions. This form of reply does not require "evidence." It is an argument, not proof. You seem to have a lot of difficult understanding logical thinking.

 

[Meowzltov]

2. Do you agree when a legal "Old Will Contract"legally is abolished the "New Will Contract is legally binding and is not the "Old Will Contract"?

If I make an old contract with the Smith Family who live in the town of Dodge, and then I make a newer contract with the entire city of Dodge, the newer contract doesn't abolish the older contract with the Smith Family, because the contracts are with different peoples.

 

[Meowzltov]

4. Do you agree your birthright as a Jew involves customs and culture such as bar mitzvah and wearing minuzas, Jewish worship etc.?
Do you also agree that performing all or some of the the commandments can still be performed from the "Old Covenant" but in a different context with different motives or Spirit according to the mechanics of the "NC Context" and thus not being the "Old Covenant?
Yes or no and why? Jerry kelso

I admit that I don't have this completely worked out in a way that I can put into words. I know that I keep the Mosaic Covenant out of love and not out of fear of hell. But I keep those specific laws and not some other set because those are the Covenant of my people.

But its more than that. It is about the survival of Israel.

Israel is held together by this covenant, by Torah. When a Jew stops observing the Torah, they begin to do things like intermarry. Their children are raised in an assimilated, Gentile environment and they most certainly aren't interested in marrying a Jew. The grandkids no longer identify as Jews. IOW, the line of that Jew who stopped observing the Torah is lost to Israel.

For me to stop observing Torah is to kill off a bit of Israel -- an act of annihilation against the People that God chose no different than what Adolf Hitler did.

 

[jerry kelso]

I attacked your logic, which was nonsensical. You came to unwarranted conclusions. This form of reply does not require "evidence." It is an argument, not proof. You seem to have a lot of difficult understanding logical thinking.

openheart,

1. Nonsensical? That is ridiculous!
I am very methodical and logical in my thinking.
You on the other hand don't want to respond unless I give scripture and wanted me to quit repeating many same scriptures.

2. I have given twice as much scripture as you have and all you basically do is give your side and for a rebuttal you disagree with your opinion. I disagree with you and rebut with scripture and scriptural context and scriptural history and scriptural reconciliation.
Now if you really would say something logical and explain it logical I am all ears.

3. I have tried to be fair but you are not being fair.
The only way to really know what the law of Moses really means and the way you do it is to start listing some examples.

4. I don't pretend to know everything, but at the same time I am not a novice but a seeker of truth.
I have learned teachings of one who was tutored in the Torah and Jewish culture by one of his converts to Christ, Rabbi Ziegler
who became his associate for fifteen years.
I don't pretend to know everything but I am not a novice either, but rather a seeker of truth.
If you have the truth explain it better instead of thinking I am out in Layla land. Thanks Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

If I make an old contract with the Smith Family who live in the town of Dodge, and then I make a newer contract with the entire city of Dodge, the newer contract doesn't abolish the older contract with the Smith Family, because the contracts are with different peoples.

open heart,

1. I was only talking about one person's will who then decides to make another will and does away with the first one. Why? The second one is new and different.
There are people who draw up a will with someone being a beneficiary and could be replaced and have more changes of more or different information and draw up a new will and the Old will is nullified and void.
What is so illogical of that example?

2. Your scenario was two different contracts with two different parties that had no connection to each other except they both live in Dodge City. I have no disagreement with that but it doesn't fit or address what I was talking about and I find that as not being perceptive in proper understanding of what I said and is on the fringe of being illogical because it was either truly misunderstood or deliberate as in spinning or being confused or whatever and probably only and God would know. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

I admit that I don't have this completely worked out in a way that I can put into words. I know that I keep the Mosaic Covenant out of love and not out of fear of hell. But I keep those specific laws and not some other set because those are the Covenant of my people.

But its more than that. It is about the survival of Israel.

Israel is held together by this covenant, by Torah. When a Jew stops observing the Torah, they begin to do things like intermarry. Their children are raised in an assimilated, Gentile environment and they most certainly aren't interested in marrying a Jew. The grandkids no longer identify as Jews. IOW, the line of that Jew who stopped observing the Torah is lost to Israel.

For me to stop observing Torah is to kill off a bit of Israel -- an act of annihilation against the People that God chose no different than what Adolf Hitler did.

open heart,

1. First you have to give examples of what commandments you do of the 613 laws and how you do them and why.

2. I never said you couldn't do the Torah as long as they were under the New Covenant context.
The law was Holy and Good and doing things like dietary laws would be very wise for they are beneficial to good health whether it be a Jew or Gentile that performs them.
The moral laws are in effect For within themselves they are always right such as do not steal, kill, commit adultery etc. They are listed in the works of the flesh Galatians 5:19. We are to love God with all our heart mind and soul and that was in the Torah and in the NC we are not taught love because they'll know we are Christians by our love.
I have to get to rest and I will comment tomorrow. Jerry kelso

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

yeshuahaderekh,

1. Sorry it is mezuzah and the Jews put it on the door to fulfill mitvah to remind them of the Shema.

Do you mean "Mitzvah"?

 

[miknik5]

If I make an old contract with the Smith Family who live in the town of Dodge, and then I make a newer contract with the entire city of Dodge, the newer contract doesn't abolish the older contract with the Smith Family, because the contracts are with different peoples.

If the smith family died and entered into Heaven and lives

And they (the smith family) tell you to obey their words whose contract do you think overrides all other contracts?

 

[miknik5]

You can't mix new with old

It becomes a mess