NO MORE PREACHING ON HELL

[Solomons Porch]

I know where you are going with this but its a weak argument.

You did not ask to be born. You had no say as to when you were born. No say in where you were born. No say in what kind of parents you would have. No say in what kind of circumstances you were born into.

Additionally your supposition assumes you have a neutral stance towards G-d The Carnal mind (natural mind the condition in which you are born) is at enmity (WAR) with G-d.

You may know this if not, its new information for you.
Many ancient languages had numeric values associated with their alphabet. We still on occasion use the roman letters to reflect dates..... XX is 20 Superbowl has long used the Roman numerals (which are actual letters and not numbers per say)

The same is true of Hebrew and Greek.

G-d loves numbers we see all through scripture and much of it is surface. 3, 7 and 12 are numbers associated with G-d....

There is a very interesting process that looks at the original Hebrew and looks at the numeric value of the words and phrases found in scripture. This approach is called Theomatic

When you compare the war in heaven and the fall of man in the garden they have the same numeric value. The research on this is quite exhaustive and the statistical analysis is equally exhaustive

Theomatics

NO I do not think you know at all where I am going with this. But if you claim that you do, OK. Yes sir you know where I am going.

But entertain me for one minute and quit arguing theology etc.
Lets talk human to human, man to woman, woman to man.
Would you want to marry a woman that was FORCED to love you and stay true to you......?? simple yes or no

 

[Solomons Porch]

Personally, I no longer see much sense in either the annihilationism or endless torment scenarios. Long story short, and for reasons that go beyond the scope of this subforum, they just don't add up.

-

So simple question.
Do you believe there is a hell?
And I do believe that is what the forums are for.....discussing and seeking to know the truth. By sharing each ones thoughts etc. Not to say one is right or one is wrong. But to know the truth and seek answers within each other, in peace.

 

[BukiRob]

NO I do not think you know at all where I am going with this. But if you claim that you do, OK. Yes sir you know where I am going.

But entertain me for one minute and quit arguing theology etc.
Lets talk human to human, man to woman, woman to man.
Would you want to marry a woman that was FORCED to love you and stay true to you......?? simple yes or no

What I feel or want doesn't matter with all due respect..... Issac didn't have a say when his father sent his servant to go get Issac wife...... Additionally, the 50% divorce rate in the evangelical church clearly shows that marriage based on "want/feeling" isnt working out so well for us....

 

[BukiRob]

So simple question.
Do you believe there is a hell?
And I do believe that is what the forums are for.....discussing and seeking to know the truth. By sharing each ones thoughts etc. Not to say one is right or one is wrong. But to know the truth and seek answers within each other, in peace.

No I do not. Not as you mean it. I believe that the unrepentant sinner dies and stays in the grave like the believer does. At the Resurrection, the believer puts on immortality with a glorified body and the unbeliever stands before the great Throne to be judged. Those who'se name is not found in the book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire and they will be killed by the second death and their remains are utterly, totally consumed and their punishment is eternal

 

[Solomons Porch]

What I feel or want doesn't matter with all due respect..... Issac didn't have a say when his father sent his servant to go get Issac wife...... Additionally, the 50% divorce rate in the evangelical church clearly shows that marriage based on "want/feeling" isnt working out so well for us....

AGAIN..... you are not Issac and I am not a Rachel.
We are talking here and now Feb. 2017.
Would you want a woman to say I do to you....to have and to hold, to honor obey love etc til death do you part...?? simple

 

[Solomons Porch]

No I do not. Not as you mean it. I believe that the unrepentant sinner dies and stays in the grave like the believer does. At the Resurrection, the believer puts on immortality with a glorified body and the unbeliever stands before the great Throne to be judged. Those who'se name is not found in the book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire and they will be killed by the second death and their remains are utterly, totally consumed and their punishment is eternal

Thank you

 

[BukiRob]

AGAIN..... you are not Issac and I am not a Rachel.
We are talking here and now Feb. 2017.
Would you want a woman to say I do to you....to have and to hold, to honor obey love etc til death do you part...?? simple

Again, what I say doesn't much matter... what does scripture say.

At 18 I would have said no.... at nearly 60 today IF I knew that this was the hand of G-d then I would not have a problem with it at all.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Thank you

So then, he like the rest of us rebelled and that is why we are here.

Lets think this through.... You, me and every other person who believes G-d is believe G-d to be a holy, perfect, just and merciful right?

So setting aside any preconceived notions and strictly as an academic argument let us examine the state of things. shall we?

This all loving G-d created the universe and the earth that was "VERY GOOD" and he placed man in the center of the garden. Naked as a jaybird and without the knowledge of good and evil. Eve is then created to be Adam's helpmeet. G-d tells Adam you can eat of any tree but if you eat the fruit of this tree you shall surely die.

On the surface that doesnt strike me as kind or merciful or loving. Futhermore, when Adam and Eve fell every other person born from that point on is under the curse of death. That is REALLY not loving, merciful, just OR kind.....

So KNOWING G-d IS loving, merciful and kind along with slow to anger, just and all loving what gives?????

Here you are born a sinner under the penalty of death. Did YOU ask to be born? Nope. Did you deserve this??? ON the surface no. We are born rebellious... want proof? Just watch any toddler being told no to something they want. Why are we born PREDISPOSED TO REBEL AGAINST G-d?


I give you Revelation 12:4 and 12:9

12: 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

12: 7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole [d]world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even [e]when faced with death.

You see, the Garden of Eden and the fall of man is the PHYSICAL event that happened reflecting the SPIRITUAL EVENT that happened in heaven....

It even rings more true when you read..... Matthew 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Ok I could be wrong and if I am trust me I will be the first to say I am sorry because my intentions are not to argue hurt or harm. Actually I seek to understand.

But it seemed and felt as if in the beginning of this post you seemed angry and confrontive. I could be wrong, but it seems to seep with anger and I wonder why......

Allow me to say it like this if you will......
Some people respond to these forums and you can hear and feel the anger from them. As if you walked into their living room and slapped them across the face......and I wonder why that is, seriously I wonder why people respond in such anger as if nobody is listening, which in all actuality someone is listening and they are not trying to hurt you. I guess my friend I don't understand why ppl pull out guns a blazing when you don't even know each other and or the heart of the matter.

Does that make sense??

 

[Solomons Porch]

Again, what I say doesn't much matter... what does scripture say.

At 18 I would have said no.... at nearly 60 today IF I knew that this was the hand of G-d then I would not have a problem with it at all.

See now you are being "real" with me......nothing wrong with that. Im cool with it and I dont judge you at all.

 

[BukiRob]

Ok I could be wrong and if I am trust me I will be the first to say I am sorry because my intentions are not to argue hurt or harm. Actually I seek to understand.

But it seemed and felt as if in the beginning of this post you seemed angry and confrontive. I could be wrong, but it seems to seep with anger and I wonder why......

Allow me to say it like this if you will......
Some people respond to these forums and you can hear and feel the anger from them. As if you walked into their living room and slapped them across the face......and I wonder why that is, seriously I wonder why people respond in such anger as if nobody is listening, which in all actuality someone is listening and they are not trying to hurt you. I guess my friend I don't understand why ppl pull out guns a blazing when you don't even know each other and or the heart of the matter.

Does that make sense??

LOL Im not or have been angry at all.... With all due respect you are reading things into my comments that are not there.

I cite scripture to back up my positions as much as I can so that my views are founded on scripture and not the teachings of man or tradition.

I confront error whenever I believe I see it... but if anyone is taking that as anger then again, with all due respect there is none and as kindly as can be said, the problem lies with the person making assumptions.

 

[Solomons Porch]

the problem lies with the person making assumptions

Yes sir.....problem solved. It was my issue and I did not understand. The problem is mine and it's not yours. Thank you for your friendliness.....God Bless

 

[BukiRob]

Yes sir.....problem solved. It was my issue and I did not understand. The problem is mine and it's not yours. Thank you for your friendliness.....God Bless

I know many people will disagree with what I see in scripture. I want to be respectful of the fact that I am not on the messianic forum I was raised during the charismatic revival of the late 1960's and 1970's
As such, I am very familiar with the mainstream teaching of the body that teaches being "led by the spirit" which teaches that the Torah was nailed to the cross.

The problem that led me to eventually become messianic (after MANY years of study and at one point completely walking away from the church.) was the teachings concerning Torah did not exactly line up with what I was reading in my bible.

I was told that "a good christian obeys the 10 commandments" Well, really 9 of the 10 because the Sabbath has moved to Sunday.

Perhaps you are not old enough to know this but in the Midwest in the 1960's Stores were largely NOT open on Sunday's. It was very difficult to find a gas station that was open.

When I would ask why do we keep the 10 but not the rest after all isnt the 10 commandments part of the Torah? The only answer I got was really not an answer... it was "we have been set free from the Law"

I would listen to elegant teachings based upon Paul and how we are "set free from the law" Then I would read 2 Peter 3:16
speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

And Acts 21 Where James talks about "so many Jews have come to believe and are ZEALOUS FOR THE TORAH...." and ask why James never said they were wrong... worse yet, then James tells Paul to take a vow (Vow of the Nazarene) and to make the appropriate sacrifices to SHOW that he, Paul walked "orderly and KEPT THE LAW"

The more I studied the more I saw this conflict between what scripture seemed to be rather clearly saying and what was being taught... it eventually drove me to walk away from the whole thing. I never stopped believing in Messiah but I wanted no more of "religion or denominations"

After a very long dry period I woke up one day with an insatiable hunger for THE TRUTH. I prayed very simply... "Father, I cant take this any more.... I want to know the truth. If you will show me the truth, I will go wherever it leads me."

I decided I had to lay aside everything I had been taught and look at it from the beginning without any preconceived notions as to what scripture was saying.....For me, this was the big break through..... when I just took what was said to mean what is said...
1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Now made sense if I merely took what John is saying as what he is saying..... Now I saw HARMONY instead of discord.

We walk as he walked... Well, How did he walk? 100% if FULL display of Torah observance AS IT SHOULD BE WALKED OUT.....



Well, that's the abridged edition of my story of where I am and how I got here.

 

[Fishsack]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

This is exactly why many people fell away, this is exactly why I fell away from the Lord, I was so lost for a while. Everyone preached on hell and consequences and they painted our loving God as this extremely hellish ever present father. How can we serve our God when all we know is the threat of fire? Even those who were held as slaves had a very hard time about our God. Imagine christianizing slaves with the notion of hell. I'm sorry but i'm so passionate about this subject and Hell is the last thing anyone should preach to anyone. The first and most important thing is LOVE....GOD is our first and should be our last Love. Love trumps everything. Please dear sister. Never approach any non believers about hell. It does more damage than good. Our God is so loving, and our God is so beautiful and gracious and I am so much inlove with him today, it is his Love that saved me, not the preaching about hell.

 

[dhh712]

LOL right.... death penalty is not severe

I hope you realize that you are way off by yourself on that one...

No, I'm really not. I know quite a few other people who feel the same way.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Thank

I know many people will disagree with what I see in scripture. I want to be respectful of the fact that I am not on the messianic forum I was raised during the charismatic revival of the late 1960's and 1970's
As such, I am very familiar with the mainstream teaching of the body that teaches being "led by the spirit" which teaches that the Torah was nailed to the cross.

The problem that led me to eventually become messianic (after MANY years of study and at one point completely walking away from the church.) was the teachings concerning Torah did not exactly line up with what I was reading in my bible.

I was told that "a good christian obeys the 10 commandments" Well, really 9 of the 10 because the Sabbath has moved to Sunday.

Perhaps you are not old enough to know this but in the Midwest in the 1960's Stores were largely NOT open on Sunday's. It was very difficult to find a gas station that was open.

When I would ask why do we keep the 10 but not the rest after all isnt the 10 commandments part of the Torah? The only answer I got was really not an answer... it was "we have been set free from the Law"

I would listen to elegant teachings based upon Paul and how we are "set free from the law" Then I would read 2 Peter 3:16
speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

And Acts 21 Where James talks about "so many Jews have come to believe and are ZEALOUS FOR THE TORAH...." and ask why James never said they were wrong... worse yet, then James tells Paul to take a vow (Vow of the Nazarene) and to make the appropriate sacrifices to SHOW that he, Paul walked "orderly and KEPT THE LAW"

The more I studied the more I saw this conflict between what scripture seemed to be rather clearly saying and what was being taught... it eventually drove me to walk away from the whole thing. I never stopped believing in Messiah but I wanted no more of "religion or denominations"

After a very long dry period I woke up one day with an insatiable hunger for THE TRUTH. I prayed very simply... "Father, I cant take this any more.... I want to know the truth. If you will show me the truth, I will go wherever it leads me."

I decided I had to lay aside everything I had been taught and look at it from the beginning without any preconceived notions as to what scripture was saying.....For me, this was the big break through..... when I just took what was said to mean what is said...
1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Now made sense if I merely took what John is saying as what he is saying..... Now I saw HARMONY instead of discord.

We walk as he walked... Well, How did he walk? 100% if FULL display of Torah observance AS IT SHOULD BE WALKED OUT.....



Well, that's the abridged edition of my story of where I am and how I got here.

Thank you for sharing that with me. I am 44 and everything I know is me being open to the Holy Spirit. Although I am unfamiliar to what you have learned......I am never closed to knowledge and understanding. Although I may disagree, it is not for me to condemn. Or judge. My goal is to serve HIM and take HIM at HIS word. HE spoke in parables because man couldn't understand. HIS words are so simple that man has complicated them because man cannot understand Grace. Bless you and thank you.

 

[Fishsack]

Please everyone Do not preach to anyone on the face of this planet about hell. Focus on the beauty of our Lord, focus on Jesus. Love one another. Focus on the intimacy of his sacrifice. Teach about Love. his LOve was so pure. Teach and pray that people will understand God's love, for this is the most difficult thing. There is no Ultimate act of Love than a friend who laid down his life for his friend, and there is no Ultimate act of love of our God who gave his only son to be crucified by evil doers. Please only preach about Love, Teach people about Love. It is only when people Understand the Love our God, can they truly understand what Hell is.

If I was a non believer and You told me I would go to hell if I ate that donut, "well then sister, I will see you in hell".

But if you told me, God wants you to know that the donut is poisoned and it will make you sick, He loves you so much and he just wants you to be aware, Then I would listen, tearfully, I would even submit and love him back from watching out for me.

Our Loving God is so much more forgiving and absolutely beautiful and Soft and absolutely gracious and patient and so kind that I have no words to discribe him. He brings tears to my eyes. This is the God I worship.

 

[Solomons Porch]

This is exactly why many people fell away, this is exactly why I fell away from the Lord, I was so lost for a while. Everyone preached on hell and consequences and they painted our loving God as this extremely hellish ever present father. How can we serve our God when all we know is the threat of fire? Even those who were held as slaves had a very hard time about our God. Imagine christianizing slaves with the notion of hell. I'm sorry but i'm so passionate about this subject and Hell is the last thing anyone should preach to anyone. The first and most important thing is LOVE....GOD is our first and should be our last Love. Love trumps everything. Please dear sister. Never approach any non believers about hell. It does more damage than good. Our God is so loving, and our God is so beautiful and gracious and I am so much inlove with him today, it is his Love that saved me, not the preaching about hell.

Thank you for talking to me respectfully. But may I ask have you read the whole thread from beginning to this point right now? Allot has been said and hopefully made clear on each other's point. I'm older than people think and have been thru many many things to learn the lessons I now know. But you are so so so right.....GOD is love and it's HIS love that saves mankind.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

I have a simple answer: because hell is terrifying and barbaric and rather than bringing people to Christ, it drives them away and has them consider Christianity to be evil, and frankly if I were on the outside and not raised Christian I'd think the same.

(In fact the more I read the Bible and dwell on it all and hell and everything, the more I doubt and the more I think about that)

 

[SpeckOdust]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

I think a LOT of the Preachers of the World ought to evaluate their own Lives and Churches and what Connections to the outside they do have(I.e: Government)and for what reason do they have those Connections?

Maybe if the Church distanced itself from those Connections and Benefits,they'd have a Stronger Message,which people would actually consider listening to!!! A lot of Churches also have,by certain associations, allowed into their midst individuals who have other agendas,which has NOT gone un-noticed by the discerning and God Himself.Think about the impact a Church not tied to Unrighteous-Money might have(or, am i lacking in Wisdom and Understanding or Discernment?) Surely,if you had a Righteous-Church you'd have Revival Worldwide!

 

[CrystalDragon]

Hey Prophecy Kid
Yes i feel thats what they are doing and it troubles me. I can remember being so small and throughout my whole life hearing not just the love of Christ, but also that you are to fear and respect God. I knew Revelation in and out before my teenage years. Meaning I knew the ending, not just the beginning for God so loved.....I also heard the ending of the story. Which is that horrible and terrible days are ahead. Repent, draw nigh unto God, turn from your evil and wicked ways, turn your eyes upon Jesus.....I heard of the terrible day of the woman and the dragon, I knew there was a hell if I continued in my ways. It has just left the pulpit all together. Yes love is important, teaching that is most needed. But a FATHER disciplines those He loves.

Discipline? Yes? Torture for something as simple as not believing what is said? No. If an Earthly father did that they'd be considered vile, abusive, and evil.