NO MORE PREACHING ON HELL

[John Hyperspace]

a few more

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell."

The Greek word here does not mean annihilation, but a continuation of existence in a lost state or ruined state.

Mark 2:22 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost (apollumi), and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."

Matt 9:17: "the wine pours out (apollumi)"

The wine, didn't cease to exist, it was simply spilt on the ground

"Things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal": 2 Cor 4:18

Here is apollumi used again:

Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost(apollumi) sheep of the house of Israel.
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost(apollumi) sheep of the house of Israel.

So according to your logic, there was no reason for Jesus to go to the lost sheep, since they could never become "un-lost": but the truth is that apollumi means "perished" and can certainly allude to death. But I'm getting the feeling you're just wanting to cut and paste things, and aren't really looking for discussion, but upon maintaining a potentially blasphemous doctrine no matter the potential cost to the name and reputation of God. There's no reason to really continue in this line of discussion.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I'm also not sure about your point that death itself is an everlasting punishment, if you believe in death the worldly way then you simply die and it's lights out...that's not a punishment.

You're basically saying that capital punishment isn't punishment. No offense, but it's pretty clear that you're not actually wanting to discuss things, but simply on maintaining a doctrine at any cost. Again, no offense, but I'm not interested in this line of discussion which goes so far to maintain it's position that it denies the death penalty as being a punishment.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

You're basically saying that capital punishment isn't punishment. No offense, but it's pretty clear that you're not actually wanting to discuss things, but simply on maintaining a doctrine at any cost. Again, no offense, but I'm not interested in this line of discussion which goes so far to maintain it's position that it denies the death penalty as being a punishment.

You clearly didn't read my first sentence.

I utilized everlasting punishment to make it clear my whole reply was about everlasting punishment...


So when I say just death and lights out isn't a punishment i'm saying death aka lights out isn't an everlasting punishment, I just didn't type the word everlasting twice because I already introduced it in the first sentence.

You die in the real world which is something that is neutral for any theology out there.... but on the spiritual side you're just nothing again as you were before if you apply the world view to this and sort of morph it with the spiritual one.

Spiritual wise that wouldn't be a punishment....I mean being nothing...you're nothing... like you still escape pain...poverty etc, there's not as much as an incentive to reach heaven, some would do what they do in the real world.. If i can't become a doctor i'll settle as a nurse. Sure doctor>nurse benefits but it takes so much time...and I can still make money as a nurse (not saying all choose nurse for this reason but using as example).

I can still feel no pain, no sickness being nothing, sure I don't get to walk the streets of heaven...but hey i'm free from stuff I still make a spiritual profit.


I don't want to take the time to be saved and put in some much effort to be sanctified and devote so much time to God so I don't mind just being nothing when I die, would be the mentality. I would rather be comfortable in the world and get some benefits then make the extra stride for JESUS would also. Sure the natural death would still be avoided at all cost... but no one would worry about the spiritual after life.. and even less then we have now would be serving God if there wasn't a devil out to get us and send us to a lake of fire with him for eternity. Sure I'm not suggesting that's the only reason one should want God....but for many including myself... that was the only reason I had seeking him and that's how I got saved. Now after being saved I love him and love the word etc. but desiring to escape an eternal death and a devil is what convinced me to seek him and cry out to him before salvation and such, as well as wanting to be a part of the body of christ.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell.

The idea of hell and eternal punishments doesn't sound quite as appealing as "Jesus did it all on the cross".

 

[AnthonyMarshall]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

Bums on seats is possibly the simplest answer. As an x-atheist I wasn't aligned to any particular Church. I wanted to know Jesus and how I could become closer to Him - THE TRUTH. I was completely confused. It seemed to me for quite a while I had two choices. One was all I had to do was believe and everything I wanted, money, houses, cars, boats would be given to me- I just had to ask. Of course that was my first choice and I signed up.
That just didn't feel right after a while and sounded a little like a book I had read "The Secret" and "LAW OF ATTRACTION" and my friend was totally sold on that - did everything he was told - had positive multi-coloured pieces of paper with positive statements written on them and stuck everywhere including the loo. He lost everything, including all that he had before he started following the 'book'.
So I started looking elsewhere.
On the other side was the fire and brimstone preachers that said unless I obeyed every command perfectly I was going to hell. And what a picture he painted - burning forever, never dying, huge pain and suffering and all that.
I am a sinner, and despite confessing I still sin- nothing like I did when I was an atheist, but controlling myself and my thoughts every moment of every day proved impossible. And sometimes my dreams were a little racey. Big problems!
Fortunately for me, my intro to Jesus was not through church. I was the beneficiary of a string of unexpected, amazing, sometimes hilarious, unexplainable miracles - which of course for a cynical atheist miracles were the only way to get my attention. I have never be able to rationalise the miracles - and I have tried. So it made sense to me that if the fire and brimstone man was right then the 'Jesus' who had saved my bacon when I was NOT even a believer was a lot more loving than his "Jesus"- So the truth must be somewhere in between.
I studied Revelations last year and wow- I was really excited to find out that Jesus is also not a liberal, baby kissing, super generous, benevolent pet owner and the bad guys are going to be in HUGE trouble when He returns. I wrote to the Pastor who had told me all I had to do was believe and no suffering and lots of goodies and suggested he really should tell his large audience the truth - Jesus died to pay for our sins not to make sure we never suffered and got all the goodies and hell is real. I wrote to the hell fire and brimstone chap and told him a bit of my story - he was not impressed - NOT IMPRESSED WITH MIRACLES!
I am still looking for a church that has the balance - any suggestions gratefully received.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

So when I say just death and lights out isn't a punishment i'm saying death aka lights out isn't an everlasting punishment, I just didn't type the word everlasting twice because I already introduced it in the first sentence.

Makes sense to me.

I can still feel no pain, no sickness being nothing, sure I don't get to walk the streets of heaven...but hey i'm free from stuff I still make a spiritual profit.

I may not be understanding you properly, but I would suggest that nothingness is definitely a punishment, because it would be a denial of any further chance at learning, growing and experiencing more truth. I personally believe that there's more to reality and existence than we can imagine at the moment, and I think it would constitute a tremendous loss to miss out on that.

Perhaps to someone who does not have that same vision, they would not see it as a punishment to become nothing, but they are still missing out even if they don't understand that they are missing out.

 

[Solomons Porch]

I have a book called Generating Hope by Jimmy Long, about reaching 'Gen Xers'. Not really sure about sociological analysis of these things. I would guess there are a variety of attitudes towards preaching on hell amongst members of each generation. Does anyone like hearing it?


A question to be considered is:

How should it be preached, and to whom?

Like Johnathan Edward's famous sermon? Although he preached that and I have heard that there was a revival in the congregation and surrounding area following. He don't think he preached like that every week. The congregation he had moved to had been largely unaffected by the Great Awakening he must if felt that sermon was appropriate on that occasion He done it out of concern.

On the other hand there are those who seemed to almost enjoy in preaching with vivid descriptions of the pains of hell (even describing infants being tormented). I read once Os Guinness telling of someone famous whom had attended church on Sunday, as a proud father, his wife having recently given birth to a son. The minister began to get into his sermon describing the pains of infants in hell, and this man stood up and shouted 'if that be your God, and that be your religion' I want none of it, and left and never returned. Very sad.

 

[Solomons Porch]

The definition of hell that made most sense to me was when one minister stated:

Hell is the place where Gods presence does not exist.

Think of a world without Gods presence in it

:-(

 

[Solomons Porch]

Bums on seats is possibly the simplest answer. As an x-atheist I wasn't aligned to any particular Church. I wanted to know Jesus and how I could become closer to Him - THE TRUTH. I was completely confused. It seemed to me for quite a while I had two choices. One was all I had to do was believe and everything I wanted, money, houses, cars, boats would be given to me- I just had to ask. Of course that was my first choice and I signed up.
That just didn't feel right after a while and sounded a little like a book I had read "The Secret" and "LAW OF ATTRACTION" and my friend was totally sold on that - did everything he was told - had positive multi-coloured pieces of paper with positive statements written on them and stuck everywhere including the loo. He lost everything, including all that he had before he started following the 'book'.
So I started looking elsewhere.
On the other side was the fire and brimstone preachers that said unless I obeyed every command perfectly I was going to hell. And what a picture he painted - burning forever, never dying, huge pain and suffering and all that.
I am a sinner, and despite confessing I still sin- nothing like I did when I was an atheist, but controlling myself and my thoughts every moment of every day proved impossible. And sometimes my dreams were a little racey. Big problems!
Fortunately for me, my intro to Jesus was not through church. I was the beneficiary of a string of unexpected, amazing, sometimes hilarious, unexplainable miracles - which of course for a cynical atheist miracles were the only way to get my attention. I have never be able to rationalise the miracles - and I have tried. So it made sense to me that if the fire and brimstone man was right then the 'Jesus' who had saved my bacon when I was NOT even a believer was a lot more loving than his "Jesus"- So the truth must be somewhere in between.
I studied Revelations last year and wow- I was really excited to find out that Jesus is also not a liberal, baby kissing, super generous, benevolent pet owner and the bad guys are going to be in HUGE trouble when He returns. I wrote to the Pastor who had told me all I had to do was believe and no suffering and lots of goodies and suggested he really should tell his large audience the truth - Jesus died to pay for our sins not to make sure we never suffered and got all the goodies and hell is real. I wrote to the hell fire and brimstone chap and told him a bit of my story - he was not impressed - NOT IMPRESSED WITH MIRACLES!
I am still looking for a church that has the balance - any suggestions gratefully received.

Love your story, very well written. To be continued.....

 

[lastofall]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

 

[dhh712]

So do you consider the death penalty on earth to be a rather severe form of punishment here? I dont know of ANYONE who doesnt....

Likewise, isn't a death penalty where you are FOREVER cut off a severe punishment? We were created to be with the Father FOREVER. Seems to me about as severe as it gets is to be killed and denied to see the wonders that "eye has not seen nor has ear heard those things which G-d has planned for those who love Him.”

I don't consider the death penalty to be severe actually, it is what God has commanded us to do when someone takes another's life.

I am not in the judgment seat holding God upon trial. It is not I who determines what is too severe. God's word is his word. We are to obey it and follow him and not question his moral judgment as though ours were superior to his.

 

[dhh712]

Bums on seats is possibly the simplest answer. As an x-atheist I wasn't aligned to any particular Church. I wanted to know Jesus and how I could become closer to Him - THE TRUTH. I was completely confused. It seemed to me for quite a while I had two choices. One was all I had to do was believe and everything I wanted, money, houses, cars, boats would be given to me- I just had to ask. Of course that was my first choice and I signed up.
That just didn't feel right after a while and sounded a little like a book I had read "The Secret" and "LAW OF ATTRACTION" and my friend was totally sold on that - did everything he was told - had positive multi-coloured pieces of paper with positive statements written on them and stuck everywhere including the loo. He lost everything, including all that he had before he started following the 'book'.
So I started looking elsewhere.
On the other side was the fire and brimstone preachers that said unless I obeyed every command perfectly I was going to hell. And what a picture he painted - burning forever, never dying, huge pain and suffering and all that.
I am a sinner, and despite confessing I still sin- nothing like I did when I was an atheist, but controlling myself and my thoughts every moment of every day proved impossible. And sometimes my dreams were a little racey. Big problems!
Fortunately for me, my intro to Jesus was not through church. I was the beneficiary of a string of unexpected, amazing, sometimes hilarious, unexplainable miracles - which of course for a cynical atheist miracles were the only way to get my attention. I have never be able to rationalise the miracles - and I have tried. So it made sense to me that if the fire and brimstone man was right then the 'Jesus' who had saved my bacon when I was NOT even a believer was a lot more loving than his "Jesus"- So the truth must be somewhere in between.
I studied Revelations last year and wow- I was really excited to find out that Jesus is also not a liberal, baby kissing, super generous, benevolent pet owner and the bad guys are going to be in HUGE trouble when He returns. I wrote to the Pastor who had told me all I had to do was believe and no suffering and lots of goodies and suggested he really should tell his large audience the truth - Jesus died to pay for our sins not to make sure we never suffered and got all the goodies and hell is real. I wrote to the hell fire and brimstone chap and told him a bit of my story - he was not impressed - NOT IMPRESSED WITH MIRACLES!
I am still looking for a church that has the balance - any suggestions gratefully received.

Please do check out either an Orthodox Presbyterian Church or a Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America in your area. If there is not one, hopefully at least you can find a Presbyterian Church of America there. Most of them are still quite okay. Those are my only experience with churches who preach God's full counsel that is revealed to us (I'm sure there are others, just do not know of any).

I would also suggest you read the "Westminster Confessions of Faith". As a former atheist like myself, much of it may make a lot of sense to you as it did to me.

Best wishes, and may God guide you and protect you on your path.

 

[Monna]

Hell is the place where Gods presence does not exist.

Enormous desire, but no love and no satisfaction. Intense loneliness coupled with an instant distrust and hate for anyone who comes close. Argumentative and constantly aggressive, always looking for a fight. No light, only darkness and fumbling about. Constant fear, I mean like TERROR. But always trying to be the bully, seeking power and dominance, but also feeling enormously insecure. Greed, selfishness, and self-loathing - full knowledge of one's own failures and guilt. Always filled with a passion to destroy, but never succeeding. Full or rage and totally frustrated. Hunger without the possibility of eating, and thirst that cannot be quenched. Nothing beautiful to appreciate, but then not being able to appreciate anyway. Nothing that seems real or lasting - everything and everyone is a liar and a cheat. Perhaps worst of all, no hope whatsoever.

Fire and brimstone seems like a vacation by comparison.

I learned to fear when I was harangued with the hell fire "gospel." It was a fear that plagued my life for over 40 years. It is only love that can overcome fear. Jesus talked about hell more than about heaven, it is said. But I wonder if the real problem is how we preach about it. It is not the preacher's role to convict of sin and guilt, nor to scare people into heaven. It is the Spirit's work to convict of sin. My role is to demonstrate and spread the love of Jesus and draw them to him. Then, perhaps, they will see how far short they fall from what God intended, realise it is their sin that blocks the development of a good relationship, and move towards repentance, acceptance of God's forgiveness, reconciliation, healing and growth.

But we also need to remember that God works uniquely with every individual, so the paths to salvation are many - there is no one size fits all.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Enormous desire, but no love and no satisfaction. Intense loneliness coupled with an instant distrust and hate for anyone who comes close. No light, only darkness and fumbling about. Constant fear, I mean like TERROR. But always trying to be the bully, seeking power and dominance, but also feeling enormously insecure. Greed, selfishness, and self-loathing - full knowledge of one's own failures and guilt. Always filled with a passion to destroy, but never succeeding. Hunger without the possibility of eating, and thirst that cannot be quenched. Nothing beautiful to appreciate, but then not being able to appreciate anyway. Nothing that seems real or lasting - everything and everyone is a liar and a cheat. Perhaps worst of all, no hope whatsoever.

Fire and brimstone seems like a vacation by comparison.

I learned to fear when I was harangued with the hell fire "gospel." It was a fear that plagued my life for over 40 years. It is only love that can overcome fear. Jesus talked about hell more than about heaven, it is said. But I wonder if the real problem is how we preach about it. It is not the preacher's role to convict of sin and guilt, nor to scare people into heaven. It is the Spirit's work to convict of sin. My role is to demonstrate and spread the love of Jesus and draw them to him. Then, perhaps, they will see how far short they fall from what God intended, realise it is their sin that blocks the development of a good relationship, and move towards repentance, acceptance of God's forgiveness, reconciliation, healing and growth.

But we also need to remember that God works uniquely with every individual, so the paths to salvation are many - there is no one size fits all.

Very well said......maybe we should examine the HOW

 

[Emmy]

Dear Solomons Porch. We all know there is a hell, but do we all know enough about hell? Hell is without God, without Love or Compassion, hell is the opposite of God and His Love. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is Love God with all thy hearts, with all thy souls, and with out thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." That is simply put and straight forward.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive."
We ask God for Love and Compassion, then we thank God and share all love with our neighbour.
The Bible tells us: Love God and love each other as God Loves us. To love is to treat everybody as we would love to be treated ourselves. Love is very catching, and love changes all adversities. Let us therefore love as God wants us to love, and see this imperfect world slowly, and surly change. I say this with love, Solomons Porch. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[MostRadicalManEver]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

I've noticed that too.

Scripture encourages us to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Tim 2:15) i.e. the reference to the good bereans (acts 17:11). Also we shall all stand before the Judgment seat of Christ for ourselves (2 Cor 5:10). So this encourages me to just simply read/listen to the bible (the entire bible straight through) myself. The more I read or listen to the Bible the more a Panorama of Truth begins to emerge exposing the false doctrines.

I almost feel as if I have been lied to by all the Winds of Doctrine going to and fro throughout the church.

Read the bible . It is self defense against false doctrine.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

You know it does not seem to matter how you preach, people will either respond to the word you give them or they won't.

Jesus said even if some one was to raise from the dead some would not believe. He said give them the word (bible).

I believe in miracles, have seen them, and I do preach hell fire occasionally (usually out of frustration). But I have found it does not matter what you preach some will not repent. I have friends who I have preached love to for years. They did not repent. So I preached hell fire. All it did was get their back up, and call me uncaring. It matters not what you preach, it is the ground that has been prepared that can be harvested.

Men and women must cultivate their own hearts to receive the word of God. If their hearts are not cultivated no amount of pleading will help.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

But we also need to remember that God works uniquely with every individual, so the paths to salvation are many - there is no one size fits all.

Probably one of the best comments I've heard all day.

 

[AlexDTX]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

It think it is because most leaders of congregations have no interest in evangelism.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Makes sense to me.



I may not be understanding you properly, but I would suggest that nothingness is definitely a punishment, because it would be a denial of any further chance at learning, growing and experiencing more truth. I personally believe that there's more to reality and existence than we can imagine at the moment, and I think it would constitute a tremendous loss to miss out on that.

Perhaps to someone who does not have that same vision, they would not see it as a punishment to become nothing, but they are still missing out even if they don't understand that they are missing out.

What I am suggesting is being nothing isn't comparable to heaven but it's not a harsh punishment like hell.

And that's my point an unbeliever wouldn't mind nothing because he doesn't realize what he's missing a non believer would accept the nothing, a dedicated believer wouldn't. SOrry for lack of clarification.

But yeah I was mainly just saying that as an unbeliever myself and many others got saved because of hell/lake of fire/devil/demons attacking us. IF that wasn't the opposing force and it was just nothing we wouldn't have sought help from the church is all i'm saying.


A believer would still seek heaven of course if they believed in it more likely then not. But it would be questionable if some unbelievers would be as pushed without the alternative of hell/lake of fire.