NO MORE PREACHING ON HELL

[stuart lawrence]

Enormous desire, but no love and no satisfaction. Intense loneliness coupled with an instant distrust and hate for anyone who comes close. Argumentative and constantly aggressive, always looking for a fight. No light, only darkness and fumbling about. Constant fear, I mean like TERROR. But always trying to be the bully, seeking power and dominance, but also feeling enormously insecure. Greed, selfishness, and self-loathing - full knowledge of one's own failures and guilt. Always filled with a passion to destroy, but never succeeding. Full or rage and totally frustrated. Hunger without the possibility of eating, and thirst that cannot be quenched. Nothing beautiful to appreciate, but then not being able to appreciate anyway. Nothing that seems real or lasting - everything and everyone is a liar and a cheat. Perhaps worst of all, no hope whatsoever.

Fire and brimstone seems like a vacation by comparison.

I learned to fear when I was harangued with the hell fire "gospel.

You have just perfectly summed up what happened to me, many years ago when i myself feared hell.
Thank you for your post, its reassuring for me to know all of those emotions were suffered by others also, and for the same reason. Though I am sorry you suffered that way.
It is truly remarkable the fact you so perfectly summed me up at that time. I mean that, most sincerely.
It seems kind of weird.
No one ever knew me that well. I am stunned!

 

[Striver]

The discussions about hell are always so hard for me to follow because you have the annihilationists, soul sleepers, and so on that can take the discussion in literally dozens of different directions.

I'm going to burn some of my Protestant credentials here, but it is worthwhile for us to look back at literary works like Paradise Lost by John Milton to begin to understand where the red guy with a pitchfork image came from. So many of our ideas about hell are shaped in Medieval or Reformation/Renaissance lore and weight heavily on theology.

One concept that I did not get until I read works outside of the Bible is the very nature of hell. Put the idea of eternal fiery torment on the shelf for just a moment. Try and think about Hell as CS Lewis described it in these quotes:

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”
― The Great Divorce (The Great Divorce Quotes by C.S. Lewis)

"The doors of Hell are locked on the inside. I do not mean that the ghosts may not wish to come out of Hell, in the vague fashion wherein an envious man 'wishes' to be happy: but they certainly do not will even the first preliminary stages of that self-abandonment through which alone the soul can reach any good. They enjoy forever the horrible freedom they have demanded, and are therefore self-enslaved: just as the blessed, forever submitting to obedience, become through all eternity more and more free." ― The Problem of Pain (Seeing Hell through the Reason and Imagination of C. S. Lewis | Discovery Institute)

So, you can see that in the view of Lewis, people actually desire to be in hell. Satanist satire notwithstanding, the point is that these people don't desire heaven. Lewis has another quote in The Great Divorce which talks about the effects of sin:

"“Son,'he said,' ye cannot in your present state understand eternity...That is what mortals misunderstand. They say of some temporal suffering, "No future bliss can make up for it," not knowing that Heaven, once attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. And of some sinful pleasure they say "Let me have but this and I'll take the consequences": little dreaming how damnation will spread back and back into their past and contaminate the pleasure of the sin. Both processes begin even before death. The good man's past begins to change so that his forgiven sins and remembered sorrows take on the quality of Heaven: the bad man's past already conforms to his badness and is filled only with dreariness. And that is why...the Blessed will say "We have never lived anywhere except in Heaven, : and the Lost, "We were always in Hell." And both will speak truly.”
― The Great Divorce (The Great Divorce Quotes by C.S. Lewis)

This is a very Wesleyan notion, as John Wesley dealt specifically with a very similar topic in many of his sermons exploring original sin. Sin infects every aspect of our lives, from the spiritual to the mental to the physical. It is no coincidence that all of us have a notion of Christian Spider-Sense (forgive the unserious analogy for a moment) going off inside of us. I've noted this trend for Christians of all theological persuasions, but most feel we are experiencing some form of the falling away. Thus, depression is on the rise, and even though murder rates and addictions rise and fall, we all perceive sin seems to be growing in the shadows. The chains of hell are real. I recall the pleading of Spurgeon that those bound for hell should have to crawl over us:

“If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.”

In other words, hell is anything but a place of our judgment on others for guys like Spurgeon. I think it very revealing to know that Spurgeon was quite the Calvinist yet he made this statement. It is very much in line with Lewis and his own near contemporary of John Wesley.

However, I am a little slow at times, and this all came together for me when I read the works of one Roman Catholic: Dante. One passage and one theme stuck out to me. As Dante descends into hell, he encounters various famous persons. And you know what? They're all stuck in punishment that represents their major sins in life. Somehow the punishment is tied to their prominent sin, like those who gave into lust are tormented by winds that blow every which way, always causing pain and suffering but never abating. What's most striking about it all is that each one of the tormented souls cannot really see beyond the sin. It's almost as if they are unaware they are being tormented but are so focused on whatever passion or whatever reward that they continue to endure the pain of it all.

The second image seared on my mind is when an angel is necessary for Dante and his guide to gain access to the next level of hell. They utter a prayer and this angel shows up with a key to the castle gate. These demons that are in the castle flee, but the angel is described with a face that appears to be lost in thought fulfilling someone else's will, but is singularly focused on reaching and breaching the gate. Hell just sort of flees and melts away from the angel. The implication being that this angel's will and God's will are in perfect alignment.

In the end verses like these begin to make a lot more sense thinking about it:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

In Ezekiel 28 it says, at least of the King of Tyre (who I adamantly believe is also representative of Satan), that he [Satan] will turn to dust/ashes from within. The devil's greatest passion was to sit in the place of God. Similarly, our greatest passions when we go away from God are all but one in the same. These passions consume us, though they express in many forms. The Bible is clear on this (hell) being what we deserve in justice and righteousness, but there is a way to God made by Christ. Honestly, I think the doctrine of hell suffers because the doctrine of God suffers. It's not that Satan or hell is some foil to God, but that God is so holy, righteous and pure that it takes a very pure and specific sacrifice for us to get there. Of course, the defeat of hell was sealed with the sacrifice of God himself, the greatest of all love ever known.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Enormous desire, but no love and no satisfaction. Intense loneliness coupled with an instant distrust and hate for anyone who comes close. Argumentative and constantly aggressive, always looking for a fight. No light, only darkness and fumbling about. Constant fear, I mean like TERROR. But always trying to be the bully, seeking power and dominance, but also feeling enormously insecure. Greed, selfishness, and self-loathing - full knowledge of one's own failures and guilt. Always filled with a passion to destroy, but never succeeding. Full or rage and totally frustrated. Hunger without the possibility of eating, and thirst that cannot be quenched. Nothing beautiful to appreciate, but then not being able to appreciate anyway. Nothing that seems real or lasting - everything and everyone is a liar and a cheat. Perhaps worst of all, no hope whatsoever.

Fire and brimstone seems like a vacation by comparison.

I learned to fear when I was harangued with the hell fire "gospel." It was a fear that plagued my life for over 40 years. It is only love that can overcome fear. Jesus talked about hell more than about heaven, it is said. But I wonder if the real problem is how we preach about it. It is not the preacher's role to convict of sin and guilt, nor to scare people into heaven. It is the Spirit's work to convict of sin. My role is to demonstrate and spread the love of Jesus and draw them to him. Then, perhaps, they will see how far short they fall from what God intended, realise it is their sin that blocks the development of a good relationship, and move towards repentance, acceptance of God's forgiveness, reconciliation, healing and growth.

But we also need to remember that God works uniquely with every individual, so the paths to salvation are many - there is no one size fits all.

As you perfectly described my emotions:

When I was ten my family moved to a church that was fundamentalist. As soon as I got there I was convinced I must take God very seriously. Four weeks later I responded to an altar call to be a Christian. I then became aware of my sin as I never had previously( even at that age.)
The core members of the church seemed so perfect to me. They were dressed so smartly, the women with wonderful looking hats. And after the service, I would receive a handshake, a Godly smile and a relevant scripture verse if it was felt necessary. I honestly believed they were virtually sinless. What i saw on Sundays was how they lived their lives. And then there was me. I could act on the outside as perfect as they appeared, but on the inside I knew I was far from perfect.
I believed Jesus died for the sins i committed before I got saved. God would forgive me if I sinned, but as a christian i must live a Holy and pure life.
The problem was, no matter how hard I tried to live a sinless life, I couldn't do it. After asking God to cleanse me of my sin, the sin always returned.
I hit puberty and felt so dirty and ashamed at thoughts that came with it. My stomach would churn over if an impure thought came to me. I didn't want to go to hell. The more I feared hell due to my imperfections, the worse the imperfections got.
I remember looking back to the Time before I responded to That altar call. I had been a happy, normal kid, but not anymore. Now I was wracked with guilt and shame. I felt dirty and disgusting because of the thoughts I had as a young teenager.
Everything seemed so hopeless. I sat alone at home, wondering what was wrong with me. Why couldn't i be perfect as the people I met in church each week appeared to be.
Everything seemed so futile. I loathed myself, and became consumed by fear and depression.
And the things you described in your post to me.
But then, God was gracious to me. A few years later he opened my eyes to grace.
God bless

 

[BukiRob]

I don't consider the death penalty to be severe actually, it is what God has commanded us to do when someone takes another's life.

I am not in the judgment seat holding God upon trial. It is not I who determines what is too severe. God's word is his word. We are to obey it and follow him and not question his moral judgment as though ours were superior to his.

LOL right.... death penalty is not severe

I hope you realize that you are way off by yourself on that one...

 

[BukiRob]

Do you have an opinion or idea what it like??
I often wondered what it was like they say being with out God is the worst part no hope etc...?

I think scripture tells us....

 

[BukiRob]

This isn't a parable.

Check your Hermeneutics and interpret scripture according to the genre your reading. Parables do not contain Names..........Lazarus is a real person. The reason Jesus referred to "The Rich Man" is because he knew that the Pharisees were lovers of money and this would cause a reaction in them.

Oy vey.... holy cow. Yeshua is NOT speaking about Lazarus!

What you think its mere coincidence that in Chapter 15 of Luke we see the Parable of the lost sheep, The lost coin, The prodigal son Chapter 16 opens with the parable of the unrighteous steward and then the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus.

Contextually you can make a single argument that it is NOT a parable. Several occur before this parable is told by Messiah, there is absolutely no break in the text to suggest that a different location or time had elapsed between the telling of the parable of the unrighteous steward and the rich man parable.

What the text shows is a seamless telling of 5 different parables all telling us the same thing

 

[D2wing]

Jesus tells us hell is real and a very bad place. I will take his word for it. I hope to never find out anymore about it.

 

[BukiRob]

Jesus tells us hell is real and a very bad place. I will take his word for it. I hope to never find out anymore about it.

Its called the Lake of Fire... its found in Revelation 20

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades[GRAVE] gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades [the Grave] were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Hey guys can I switch this up a little bit.....?????
I know I posted the thread on hell and the teaching and preaching that there really is a hell just as there is a heaven, there is a hell. Just as there is a God there is a satan. Just as there is good there is bad.

My point is this....... to say there is a hell means that there is a satan, right? or no?
To say there is a heaven means that there is a God, right? or no?

And if there is a God who sits on the throne, and IF there is Jesus who died for our sins and is seated at the right hand of the Father, ever making intercession for us, pleading our case........

Why would Jesus plead our case if there wasn't an accuser? And if so who is the accuser?

So what is Jesus trying to intercede and save us from?? what is to be saved from???
Who is accusing us?
And what's his point in accusing us?
What can he gain for accusing us?

Why would it take a life, displayed in public, beaten and tortured for what "HE claimed" was for our sins to be washed away and the perfect Lamb was slain.......Thats a high cost and the price was paid, what did the blood of Jesus save us from???

 

[rjs330]

Balance.....thats my point. Dont pick and choose what scripture, book or chapter. Start from the beginning and go all the way thru it, jump around do whatever you wanna do. But DO NOT leave out the full gospel. If you are gonna preach it, preach all of it. Good, bad, ugly, sad.......Tell all of it in its fullness. My point was, that now in this present day we are living in.....PEOPLE ARE NOT PREACHING ALL OF THE GOSPEL.

THE BIBLE IS A BUFFET TABLE.
Yes you can eat all you want for one price.
But in the end.....know that there wasnt a secret room hidden away with some foods you could not partake in, UNLESS thats how you want it.

But do not complain that you wasnt served in the same manner as others....you just wanted it that way. What you put on your plate is what you will eat.

If you do not like it, don't eat it.
But in the end after you have been picky about what you want to eat or not......due to you wanting it your way, then thats what you ate, you have a choice. But never accuse the cook of not putting it ALL OUT THERE FOR YOU TO CHOOSE. It was your choice to walk past it.

Balance.
There is a heaven.
There is a hell.
From Genesis to Revelation.
Beginning to end.
Quit picking it apart to fit your taste buds.......
Once the "good stuff" the "yummy" stuff runs out.....

BALANCE !!!! A good healthy diet.

I agree wholeheartedly with this! Jesus had balance. He preached both. The apostles had balance and preached both. Revelation is a great book of balance between grace and punishment.

 

[Solomons Porch]

I agree wholeheartedly with this! Jesus had balance. He preached both. The apostles had balance and preached both. Revelation is a great book of balance between grace and punishment.

Amen brother everything about HIM was balance lead by love for others.....

 

[BukiRob]

Hey guys can I switch this up a little bit.....?????
I know I posted the thread on hell and the teaching and preaching that there really is a hell just as there is a heaven, there is a hell. Just as there is a God there is a satan. Just as there is good there is bad.

My point is this....... to say there is a hell means that there is a satan, right? or no?
To say there is a heaven means that there is a God, right? or no?

Nope not at all. Where do you think Satan is? EARTH that's where. Rev 12:
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

And if there is a God who sits on the throne, and IF there is Jesus who died for our sins and is seated at the right hand of the Father, ever making intercession for us, pleading our case........

Why would Jesus plead our case if there wasn't an accuser? And if so who is the accuser?

So what is Jesus trying to intercede and save us from?? what is to be saved from???
Who is accusing us?
And what's his point in accusing us?
What can he gain for accusing us?

Why would it take a life, displayed in public, beaten and tortured for what "HE claimed" was for our sins to be washed away and the perfect Lamb was slain.......That's a high cost and the price was paid, what did the blood of Jesus save us from???

 

[Solomons Porch]

Nope not at all. Where do you think Satan is? EARTH that's where. Rev 12:
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Yes satan is here on earth.
Roaming like a lion seeking who he can devour.

 

[rjs330]

Hey guys can I switch this up a little bit.....?????
I know I posted the thread on hell and the teaching and preaching that there really is a hell just as there is a heaven, there is a hell. Just as there is a God there is a satan. Just as there is good there is bad.

My point is this....... to say there is a hell means that there is a satan, right? or no?
To say there is a heaven means that there is a God, right? or no?

And if there is a God who sits on the throne, and IF there is Jesus who died for our sins and is seated at the right hand of the Father, ever making intercession for us, pleading our case........

Why would Jesus plead our case if there wasn't an accuser? And if so who is the accuser?

So what is Jesus trying to intercede and save us from?? what is to be saved from???
Who is accusing us?
And what's his point in accusing us?
What can he gain for accusing us?

Why would it take a life, displayed in public, beaten and tortured for what "HE claimed" was for our sins to be washed away and the perfect Lamb was slain.......Thats a high cost and the price was paid, what did the blood of Jesus save us from???

Wow you are taking the words right off my keyboard. Jesus death and resurrection had a purpose. Jesus said " I have come that you might have life and have it more abundantly." He said that the water that he gives us will keep us from ever getting thirsty again. Those are all great things and the show the great and marvelous things that God has in store for those that love him. But Jesus also came to save us from something did he not? He came to give us eternal life and salvation, but salvation from what? He saves us from our sins! But where do our sins place us? Jesus tells us that our sinfulness is judged and we are punished for it with hell. Better to lose your hand than be cast into hell etc.

 

[BukiRob]

Yes satan is here on earth.
Roaming like a lion seeking who he can devour.

So then, he like the rest of us rebelled and that is why we are here.

Lets think this through.... You, me and every other person who believes G-d is believe G-d to be a holy, perfect, just and merciful right?

So setting aside any preconceived notions and strictly as an academic argument let us examine the state of things. shall we?

This all loving G-d created the universe and the earth that was "VERY GOOD" and he placed man in the center of the garden. Naked as a jaybird and without the knowledge of good and evil. Eve is then created to be Adam's helpmeet. G-d tells Adam you can eat of any tree but if you eat the fruit of this tree you shall surely die.

On the surface that doesnt strike me as kind or merciful or loving. Futhermore, when Adam and Eve fell every other person born from that point on is under the curse of death. That is REALLY not loving, merciful, just OR kind.....

So KNOWING G-d IS loving, merciful and kind along with slow to anger, just and all loving what gives?????

Here you are born a sinner under the penalty of death. Did YOU ask to be born? Nope. Did you deserve this??? ON the surface no. We are born rebellious... want proof? Just watch any toddler being told no to something they want. Why are we born PREDISPOSED TO REBEL AGAINST G-d?


I give you Revelation 12:4 and 12:9

12: 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

12: 7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole [d]world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even [e]when faced with death.

You see, the Garden of Eden and the fall of man is the PHYSICAL event that happened reflecting the SPIRITUAL EVENT that happened in heaven....

It even rings more true when you read..... Matthew 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

 

[Solomons Porch]

Wow you are taking the words right off my keyboard. Jesus death and resurrection had a purpose. Jesus said " I have come that you might have life and have it more abundantly." He said that the water that he gives us will keep us from ever getting thirsty again. Those are all great things and the show the great and marvelous things that God has in store for those that love him. But Jesus also came to save us from something did he not? He came to give us eternal life and salvation, but salvation from what? He saves us from our sins! But where do our sins place us? Jesus tells us that our sinfulness is judged and we are punished for it with hell. Better to lose your hand than be cast into hell etc.

Yes I agree.....
But may I be candid with you?
You do not know me and I do not know you. Right??

 

[Solomons Porch]

So then, he like the rest of us rebelled and that is why we are here.

Lets think this through.... You, me and every other person who believes G-d is believe G-d to be a holy, perfect, just and merciful right?

So setting aside any preconceived notions and strictly as an academic argument let us examine the state of things. shall we?

This all loving G-d created the universe and the earth that was "VERY GOOD" and he placed man in the center of the garden. Naked as a jaybird and without the knowledge of good and evil. Eve is then created to be Adam's helpmeet. G-d tells Adam you can eat of any tree but if you eat the fruit of this tree you shall surely die.

On the surface that doesnt strike me as kind or merciful or loving. Futhermore, when Adam and Eve fell every other person born from that point on is under the curse of death. That is REALLY not loving, merciful, just OR kind.....

So KNOWING G-d IS loving, merciful and kind along with slow to anger, just and all loving what gives?????

Here you are born a sinner under the penalty of death. Did YOU ask to be born? Nope. Did you deserve this??? ON the surface no. We are born rebellious... want proof? Just watch any toddler being told no to something they want. Why are we born PREDISPOSED TO REBEL AGAINST G-d?


I give you Revelation 12:4 and 12:9

12: 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

12: 7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole [d]world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even [e]when faced with death.

You see, the Garden of Eden and the fall of man is the PHYSICAL event that happened reflecting the SPIRITUAL EVENT that happened in heaven....

It even rings more true when you read..... Matthew 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

You are going to wonder where I am going with this.....but trust me I do have a point IF you will hang in there with me....?? game or not??

Would u want a woman to marry u because she was "made or forced to love you"????

 

[Solomons Porch]

BukiRob......do you feel that Revelation is already taken place and is not to come?? That those scriptures have already been fulfilled??
And straight up.....do you believe there is a hell for those that do not repent, turn from wickedness and serve the Lord.??? Is there a hell ?? And if so why do u say there is no hell??

 

[Rajni]

Annihilationism doesn't make much sense of the Divine Image.

Torture for eternity, does that make sense for a Loving God?

Personally, I no longer see much sense in either the annihilationism or endless torment scenarios. Long story short, and for reasons that go beyond the scope of this subforum, they just don't add up.

-

 

[BukiRob]

You are going to wonder where I am going with this.....but trust me I do have a point IF you will hang in there with me....?? game or not??

Would u want a woman to marry u because she was "made or forced to love you"????

I know where you are going with this but its a weak argument.

You did not ask to be born. You had no say as to when you were born. No say in where you were born. No say in what kind of parents you would have. No say in what kind of circumstances you were born into.

Additionally your supposition assumes you have a neutral stance towards G-d The Carnal mind (natural mind the condition in which you are born) is at enmity (WAR) with G-d.

You may know this if not, its new information for you.
Many ancient languages had numeric values associated with their alphabet. We still on occasion use the roman letters to reflect dates..... XX is 20 Superbowl has long used the Roman numerals (which are actual letters and not numbers per say)

The same is true of Hebrew and Greek.

G-d loves numbers we see all through scripture and much of it is surface. 3, 7 and 12 are numbers associated with G-d....

There is a very interesting process that looks at the original Hebrew and looks at the numeric value of the words and phrases found in scripture. This approach is called Theomatic

When you compare the war in heaven and the fall of man in the garden they have the same numeric value. The research on this is quite exhaustive and the statistical analysis is equally exhaustive

Theomatics