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Supersessionism and Antisemitism

2PhiloVoid

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I understand, and I share your sentiment. I'm just saying that you'll find all sorts of different opinions among Jews. Don't take it to heart. Reform Jews in particular will say things that boggle my brain. I've learned just let it go in one ear and out the other. They're family for me, and you love family no matter what! :)

Yes, I agree. I hope our Jewish cousins of the spirit will begin to let go of their unbelief and see Jesus as He is. And I am hopeful that the establishment of the nation of Israel means something--perhaps that the times of the Curse have ended, as well as that the times of the Gentiles are coming to a close, or something like it. But, we'll see what the LORD has in store for all of us in the coming years, I'm sure.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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The Times

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Yes, I fully accept the book of Hebrews which declares the Mosaic Covenant inferior to the New Covenant.

Thank you, so the superior and better covenant/contract is directly tied to the Kingly High Priest Office of Jesus Christ, the mediator of the better promise.

When people in general die, which covenant will save them. Take for example, a Jew who dies under the old covenant and another Jew who dies under the new covenant.

Which Jew is saved?
 
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redleghunter

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c

He is responsible for the acts of all who acted out of inspiration from his writing, including most of those Protestants that participated in the Holocaust.
Ignoring of course the antisemitism put into practice by the Church before and after Luther. That was my point. Not defending his writings, but I did put them in the proper context of centuries of Church persecution.

Your OP mentions one church father and then dog.dot.dot. Luther.dot.dot.dot Hitler.

A lot more to the story. Luther was a product of his Catholic environment.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Romans 11
The Church is the "continuation" of Israel and not its "replacement", now made up of both Jew and gentile believers. The new Covenant is for Jews and the whole House of Israel, gentiles being grafted in. Would they be grafted in to being rabbinical Jews who do not believe in Yeshua? Our People WILL be saved...they WILL say "Barukh HaBa B'Shem Adonai"!
Matthew 23:39
Psalm 118:26
 
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Endtime Survivors

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I didn't say the covenant would 'end,' Open Heart. Try not to read into what I'm saying, Sis!

What I'm basically saying is that the message of the Old Testament is that being "Jewish" isn't enough, which is clear to anyone reading the Old Testament. The Covenant remains.... .....it is still in force ....which isn't good news for those who reject Jesus as Prophet, Angel of God, and Messiah.

Does this make more sense?

It makes sense to me. "Replacement theology" sounds so confrontational. What about fulfillment theology? After all, that was part of Jesus' message; that he came to fulfill the law.

Paul says that the children of Abraham are those who have the faith of Abraham and that all the promises of God to Abraham were fulfilled in Jesus. Galatians 3:7 and Galatians 3:16.

Jesus said to the Jews that if they were really the children of Abraham, then they would have the faith of Abraham. He recognizes the Jews as being the "seed" of Abraham (i.e. having the correct DNA), but he says they are not the children of Abraham, because their behavior is not consistent with the kind of faith Abraham had. John 8:37-39.

John the Baptist experienced the same kind of prideful boasting from the Jews about their lineage. He said that they should not boast about such things because God could change the rocks into children of Abraham if he wanted to. Matthew 3:9.

It's not that the Jews are any worse than other people, but rather being a part of the correct organization, having the correct DNA, and having the correct religion didn't guarantee faith. The experiment was a failure and it would have failed regardless of who the people were. There's nothing special nor worse about the Jews than what you'd find with any other humans on earth.

Jews can still be just as much a part of the Kingdom of Heaven as any other person on Earth, now, but just as any other person on Earth needs to come to God born again as individuals stripped of all they trust in, so too do the Jews need to leave behind their old religion and practice the teachings of Jesus. Paul said much the same thing about his own conversion. Philippians 3:3-8.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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St. John Chrysostom is not an anti-Semite. He is a doctor of the Roman Catholic Church, one of the Three Holy Hierarchs of the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics, and the author of the main liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic churches.

Supersessionism is also Orthodox doctrine. The Orthodox are not anti-Semitic. Indeed the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church are Semitic,
largely descended from Jews, with Jewish last names like Zakka and Kaplan found commonly, and use Semitic languages during worship (in the case of the Syriacs, an Aramaic dialect).
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Supersessionism is also Orthodox doctrine.

No it is not. It does not replace what was before...it continues. There IS a difference. I would rather use "Fulfillment Theology" or "Continuation Theology" and not "Replacement Theology" or "Supersessionism". Pascha does not replace Passover, it fulfills it. Pentecost does not replace Shavuot, it fulfills it.
 
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brightlights

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*Yawn*

Yet another assault on views that no one actually holds. What you describe as "Supersessionism" or "replacement theology" is a warped representation of Covenant Theology (CT). There is no such thing as "replacement theology". It's simply a misrepresentation of CT. Call me back when you're interested in what people actually believe.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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No it is not. It does not replace what was before...it continues. There IS a difference. I would rather use "Fulfillment Theology" or "Continuation Theology" and not "Replacement Theology" or "Supersessionism". Pascha does not replace Passover, it fulfills it. Pentecost does not replace Shavuot, it fulfills it.

I am inclined to agree. Except perhaps, I would want to clarify: it is not Orthodox Christian dogma that Judaism is soteriologically effective or still valid. Neither is it our doctrine that all Jews are not saved; rather, our view concerning their salvation appears to be basically the same as our view concerning the salvation of everyone outside of the canonical Orthodox Church.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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*Yawn*

Yet another assault on views that no one actually holds. What you describe as "Supersessionism" or "replacement theology" is a warped representation of Covenant Theology (CT). There is no such thing as "replacement theology". It's simply a misrepresentation of CT. Call me back when you're interested in what people actually believe.

I believe the Church is the New Israel, continuing in the functions that Israel carried out before the Incarnation and before Pentecost.
 
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brightlights

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I believe the Church is the New Israel, continuing in the functions that Israel carried out before the Incarnation and before Pentecost.

I believe that OT Israel was the old church.

The church, or the Israel of God, has never merely been those who are physically descended from Abraham. Israel has always been those who truly believe in Yahweh. To put it in terms of full revelation, true Israel (i.e. the church) are all those who are connected to Jesus Christ, both OT and NT.

It's very difficult to say that someone is part of God's people today if they explicitly reject Jesus Christ.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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I believe that OT Israel was the old church.

The church, or the Israel of God, has never merely been those who are physically descended from Abraham. Israel has always been those who truly believe in Yahweh. To put it in terms of full revelation, true Israel (i.e. the church) are all those who are connected to Jesus Christ, both OT and NT.

It's very difficult to say that someone is part of God's people today if they explicitly reject Jesus Christ.

I agree.

That said, I cannot rule out God saving such persons through His infinte mercy, particularly in cases where abuses by misguided Christisns behaving in a manner contrary to the Gospel have the effect of alienating them from our Lord. For example, Jews who experienced the extreme trauma of persecution by Christians.

St. John Chrysostom never advocates an actual persecution of the Jews. There is much less scope for accusing him of anti-Semitism than of say, St. Cyril of Alexandria (although even in the case of St. Cyril there were mitigating factors).

The Judaism of our society is a beautiful, peaceful religion which does not proselytize; in the case of the Jews of Antioch who St. John Chrysostom addressed in his polemics, his polemics make it clear they were proselytizing, seeking to convert members of the Orthodox Church. I suspect they may, for this reason, have been Ebionites or members of another similiar sect which was later suppressed by the admirably scrupulous and ethical Rabinnical Judaism of today.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I am inclined to agree. Except perhaps, I would want to clarify: it is not Orthodox Christian dogma that Judaism is soteriologically effective or still valid.

Better put "Rabbinical" in front of Judaism in your clarification :)
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Again, I can't do that, due to the Karaites.

Orthodoxy does not recognize Judaism as, on its own, posessing Soteriological efficacy.

Now, what about Second Temple Judaism or ancient Judaism?

I consider that our view would be that such persons were joined to the Church insofar as ancient Judaism was an icon of the Church; thus their salvation comes not from Judaism but from Christ, whose coming they anticipated.
 
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miknik5

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I have moved this out of the Salvation thread, as it was getting increasingly off subject. It deserves its own thread.



Let's look at what Supersessionism is, and what it means for Israel.

Supersessionism is the idea that physical Israel is no longer Israel; that the Church is now Israel.
  • God is done with them, they are abandoned.
  • The Jews are now cursed as a people.
  • They no longer have any promises -- all their promises are now promises of the Church.

There is no question that there are Christians today who hold these views who are not antisemite. There are Christians today who are opposed to the Jewish State of Israel who are not antisemite. The question is not whether Supersessionism always produces antisemitism, but rather if it is nevertheless a causative agent. No one ever asks if cigarette smoking causes cancer in every smoker, yet we know that smoking causes lung cancer.

There is absolutely no question that this sort of teaching, that God is done with Israel, that its promises no longer exist, that it is a cursed people, opened the door for horrific antisemitism in the Church.

Let's look at some of the major Christian antisemites, and the reasons they give for their beliefs.

ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, 4TH CENTURY
From his seven sermons on the Jews, Chrysostom states that it is because Jews killed Christ and are therefore abandoned by God and are cursed. The term "Christ killer" originates from Chrysostom. Chrysostom is one of the most read Christians in history, infecting not only his generation with antisemitism, but all successive generations.

“How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Indeed, an entire day would not suffice to tell of all their rapine, their avarice, their deception of the poor, their thievery, and their huckstering.

Are they not inveterate murderers, destroyers, men possessed by the devil? Jews are impure and impious, and their synagogue is a house of prostitution, a lair of beasts, a place of shame and ridicule, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their rites are criminal and unchaste; their religion a disease; their synagogue an assembly of crooks, a den of thieves, a cavern of devils, an abyss of perdition!

Why are the Jews degenerate? Because of their hateful assassination of Christ. This supreme crime lies at the root of their degradation and woes. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. Thus, the Jew will live under the yoke of slavery without end.

God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: “Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!” Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion.”

....The Jews are always degenerate because of their odious assassination of Christ. For this, no expiation is possible, no indulgence, no pardon.

Luther is the most notorious Christian Anti-Semite of them all. He OUTLINED what to do with the Jews, and his outline became what is known as Hitler's final solution, even to the killing of the Jews. Luther says of the non-believing Jew: "I would slap his face and, if I could, fling him to the ground and, in my anger, pierce him with my sword," and " We are at fault in not slaying them." Why? When he was younger, Luther's efforts were kind, wanting very much to convert the Jews. But because they refused to convert, his love turned to bitter hate. You see, in his mind, Jews only had the right to exist as Christians. Israel as a distinct people had no longer had reason to exist -- this is the Supersessionism at work.

So we see from these two example the following patterns connecting Supersessionism to antisemitism:

The idea that God is DONE with Israel makes Israel superfluous now. The only purpose a Jew can now find is in the Church, same as anyone else. For Israel to continue to exist as a distinct people outside of Christ is an "insult to God." Jews should either convert and become Gentiles, or if they persist in the unbelief, be restrained by Christian society, have their homes and synagogues razed, be sent to work camps, and killed.

The idea that God allows Israel to exist only as a cursed and wandering nation to warn us against betraying God, is reason to further punish Israel on God's behalf.

The idea that ALL Israel everywhere in all times is guilty of the murder of Christ, is used as the reason for cruelty towards and killing Jews aka "justice" on God's behalf, that this communal guilt of the murder of Christ means that all Jews are degenerate and odious, even demonic.
How dare you speak for the hearts of other people as if you know and understand what the believer born of HIS SPIRIT actually think of and desire for their older brother, the Jew
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Now, what about Second Temple Judaism or ancient Judaism?

I consider that our view would be that such persons were joined to the Church insofar as ancient Judaism was an icon of the Church; thus their salvation comes not from Judaism but from Christ, whose coming they anticipated.

Again, my point on the "continuation" :)
 
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