Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[FreeGrace2]

Can these naysayers point out one person who definitively received eternal life, and then gave it away and died and are now in hell?
One person that they know did this?
They DEFINITELY possessed eternal life, and DEFINITELY gave it away, and DEFINITELY died and went to hell?

Not only they can't do that, they can't even find any Scripture that suggests such a thing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Who make up the sheep ion John 10:28 that God will not allow to perish?

The sheep that "enter through Me" from v.9.

The ones who have a present tense hearing and following. Christ qualified those that are "my sheep" as those that hear and follow him.

v.27 isn't a requirement for NEVER PERISHING. It's a description of His sheep. The requirement for being one of His sheep comes from John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Therefore is impossible to be of the sheep in John 10:28 without a faithful hearing and following of Christ. Those of the OSAS try to pass off on verse 27 when in fact verse 27 tells us who the sheep are in v 28.

The chapter BEGINS with sheep. And v.9 is the requirement for being saved, or receiving eternal life.

No where in this context does it say one become a sheep of verse 28 UNconditinally...one is can be of the sheep that 'never perish' as long as he CONDITIONALLY hears and follows Christ.

Actually...no where in Scripture do we read of His sheep becoming "not His sheep", or sheep becoming goats.

You have failed to prove that the sheep in verse 28 that never perish are made up of those who do not hear and follow Christ , that is, you have not proven how one can be of the sheep in verse 28 without first conditionally hearing and follow Christ.

I proved it from v.9, whereby one of "the sheep" gets saved and becomes one of "His sheep", who WILL NEVER PERISH.

If the sheep of v28 are not made up of those that hear and follow Christ (v27), then how is it determined who make up the sheep of verse 28?

I repeat; v.9 tells us plainly.

You reference a "works based salvation".

Obedient works (hearing and following) in doing the will of the Lord are necessary to being saved.

That is not how one receives eternal life and therefore, WILL NEVER PERISH.

Jesus taught us how one receives (possesses/HAS) eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

If not, then show me how one can be a sheep of John 10:28 WITHOUT obedient works>WITHOUT hearing and following Christ?

I just did.

Now, otoh, please show me where the Bible requires "obedient works" in order to NEVER PERISH.

And I mean plain and clear verses. Not ones that require assumption.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why have you dodged the question?

I did.

If you don't keep the commandments, you haven't entered life. In fact, John says you are a liar and there is no truth in you. You don't actually believe in Jesus if you trample Matthew 19:17 underfoot.

Your one verse theology crumbles under the WEIGHT of Scripture. Showing that your understanding of Matt 19:7 is faulty. Or, maybe Scripture is just internally contradicted.

You haven't showed that "entered life" means getting eternal life.

After v.17, Jesus gave specific instructions from the 2nd table of the Law specifying man's duty to his fellow man in v.18-19. Then He summed up that portion of the Law with the 2nd greatest commandment: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

So it makes much more sense to understand "enter life" or as some translations say, "enter into life" as meaning "joining the human race by doing your duty to your fellow man".

I don't think you know what you are to believe. What are you to believe about Jesus? Do you know? Does it mean to pick and choose what He says?

I just provided a very reasonable explanation of what Matt 19:17 really says, which does NOT contradict all the verses you've not yet explained that I've provided that speak of eternal security.

Why do you not ignore John 5:24? You choose to ignore Matthew 19:17. You pick and choose at your heart's desire.

Since I just gave you an explanation of Matt 19:17 that doesn't contradict John 5:24, where is your explanation of John 5:24 that shows that Jesus wasn't teaching that eternal life comes from faith?

Let me ask, when did you enter life?

I entered life when I was born.

Was it according to Jesus' words in Matthew 19:17?

And I've done that as well.

And, neither getting born nor doing my duty to my fellow man results in receiving eternal life.

And Jesus wasn't referring to eternal life in Matt 19:17.

If He was, then He is confused Himself about how man receives eternal life.

But I know He wasn't ever confused, or contradicted. It's your views that are both.

FG2, I found this and now understand why you believe as you do. It's very sad some will allow themselves to follow man's perverted interpretations of the Bible. Yes, it's sad, but not surprising. Here it is for all to see. I actually wonder if you really believe all this nonsense.

The "free grace" movement is not synonymous with no-lordship teaching. There are many no-lordship teachers who do not fall into the "free grace" camp. However, all "free grace" teachers do hold fundamentally to a no-lordship viewpoint. But their teaching goes much further than that. Having started with the tenet that one may receive Christ as Savior and not as Lord, they then interpret the whole New Testament in that light. This has led to an interpretation of many New Testament passages which departs from the historic understanding of these texts. Among their beliefs are the following:

• Repentance is never to be included as part of the gospel message.
• One may receive Christ as Savior, yet reject Him as Lord. That is, one may receive Christ by faith alone ("intellectual assent" is the definition some of them affirm), yet do so with ongoing rebellion--accepting the gift while shaking a fist at the giver. God does not necessarily change the heart (to grant a love for Christ, or even a receptivity to Him) when He saves someone.
• True Christians will not necessarily evidence their faith by works (or "fruit"). In fact, a true Christian may never show any evidence of the new birth.
• True Christians will not necessarily persevere in the faith. In fact, a true Christian may receive Jesus as Savior, later become intellectually unconvinced of the gospel, denounce Christ and become an atheist; however, because of that one human decision made at one point in time, he is still considered to be saved. For instance, Joseph Dillow, in The Reign of the Sevant Kings, says, "It is possible for a truly born-again person to fall away from the faith and cease believing." (p.199). True Christians may fall away completely from the faith and still be saved. God in no way grants them perseverance, or sustains them in their faith.
• At the Bema seat, Christ will divide believers into two distinct and separate groups: the faithful, "overcoming" Christians will be allowed to reign with Him in the millennial kingdom; they are the "heirs" of the kingdom. Unfaithful, carnal believers, however, will get into the kingdom, but will not be allowed to reign with Christ. They enter the kingdom but do not inherit it. In fact, they will be barred from the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, and will be cast outside of the wedding banquet, where they will weep and gnash their teeth (just as unbelievers will do in hell). The millennium will therefore be a time of sorrow and weeping for these children of God.
  (Response to the "Free Grace" Movement by Phillip L Simpson)

I see where you get some of your beliefs

Pure nonsense. I have given you a very reasonable explanation of what Matt 19:17 really means, which does NOT contradict any other part of the Bible, and particularly John 5:24.

And yet, you have failed to provide any explanation of John 5:24 that doesn't contradict Matt 19:17.

You're stuck on Matt 19:17 as it's some kind of trump card that supercedes all other verses on how to get eternal life, when you can't even prove that Jesus was even speaking of eternal life. Esp since the 2 verses following are about man's duty to his fellow man.

Your views are in direct CONFLICT AND CONTRADICTION with Jesus' very plain words in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, and 10:28.

Your view has the problems, not mine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

• Repentance is never to be included as part of the gospel message. (a Free Grace belief)

FG2, since your movement doesn't believe repentance is never to be include as part of the gospel message, how do you explain these words of Jesus?

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Is your group preaching a different gospel, one without repentance?

I really don't know why I'm bothering to provide an answer, since you've shown such a negative bias against everything I post, but here goes.

The word "repent" can be taken 2 ways. The Greek word is a combination of 2 words: change and mind. So it can be understood as a change of the mind. Which is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for anyone to come to faith in Christ. They must change their minds about who Christ is, what He did for them, the existence of hell and their eventual entrance to it.

The word is also taken to mean "turning from sin", which comes from a change of the mind.

No one is saved by turning from sin. Many unbelievers have and can do that. And they still go to hell.

The issue for unbelievers is to change their minds about their own sinfulness, which leads to hell, and accept the work of Christ on their behalf and believe that eternal life is given to those who have believed in Christ.

The issue for believers is to turn from sin and live according to God's will, which is to become Christ-like, which is only possible through the filling of the Holy Spirit. There are many passages about being holy and blameless. The only way to do that is to turn from sin.

I can only imagine how this will be mangled all up and twisted into something totally unrecognizable.

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

Mathew 19:17 but if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments. (Spoken by Jesus, to the Jews, before the cross)

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. (Spoken by Paul, as revealed to him from the risen Lord, AFTER THE CROSS)

These verses are saying opposite things. Both are true! One is before the cross, one is after the cross. Only one tells you how to be saved today.

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

It's too make us aware of our need for a savior, not give us rules to save ourselves. Can't do it, it's impossible. No flesh shall be justified by the deeds of the law.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Mathew 19:17 but if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments. (Spoken by Jesus, to the Jews, before the cross)

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. (Spoken by Paul, as revealed to him from the risen Lord, AFTER THE CROSS)

These verses are saying opposite things.

Both are true!

One is before the cross, one is after the cross. Only one tells you how to be saved today.

And, the phrase "enter into life" hasn't been proven to refer to getting eternal life anyway.

I explained from the context that "entering into life" refers to "joining the human race" by doing your duty to your fellow man.

Could be like saying "get a life" to those who aren't doing their duty to their fellow man.

 

[EmSw]

And, the phrase "enter into life" hasn't been proven to refer to getting eternal life anyway.

I explained from the context that "entering into life" refers to "joining the human race" by doing your duty to your fellow man.

Could be like saying "get a life" to those who aren't doing their duty to their fellow man.

You are wrong again, Mr. Outside Darkness. Let's see what question Jesus was answering.

Matthew 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus was answering the question, 'what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' Do you see that? Answering the question, Jesus said, 'but if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'.

Let's not come up with some silly answer. The question about eternal life is what Jesus answered, Mr. Out Of Context. Did Jesus lie to the man? Did Jesus ignore his question? I'm sorry, it has nothing to do with 'get a life'.

 

[EmSw]

Mathew 19:17 but if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments. (Spoken by Jesus, to the Jews, before the cross)

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. (Spoken by Paul, as revealed to him from the risen Lord, AFTER THE CROSS)

These verses are saying opposite things. Both are true! One is before the cross, one is after the cross. Only one tells you how to be saved today.

So, Jesus' words have nothing to do with His church. How convenient of you. Forget Jesus and His words of truth, and let's follow someone else.

Let's see if Jesus said anything about keeping His commandments after His death, shall we?

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Who are the saints? How does one have the right to the tree of life if they do not do His commandments? How do they enter the gates into the city? That's right, boss, they keep and do His commandments.

You need to get away from the one who told you that Jesus' words mean nothing to the church.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Matthew 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus was answering the question, 'what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' Do you see that? Answering the question, Jesus said, 'but if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'.

Why do you persist in thinking that keeping the commandments will result in eternal life??

Consider Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

What does this verse say to you?

Let's not come up with some silly answer. The question about eternal life is what Jesus answered. Did Jesus lie to the man? Did Jesus ignore his question? I'm sorry, it has nothing to do with 'get a life'.

Just answer my question, please.

btw, who do you know who has kept the Law "continuously" in their lives? Anyone?

 

[EmSw]

Why do you persist in thinking that keeping the commandments will result in eternal life??

I will persist as long as you do not believe what Jesus said.

Jesus answered the question, 'what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' By now, you know Jesus' answer. Why can't you believe Jesus? How is it you say you believe in Jesus, but you really don't.

What Jesus said has you denying Jesus and His words -

'IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.'

Consider Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

What does this verse say to you?

I don't see anything in there having to do with salvation. Besides, Jesus' words trump anything man says; it even trumps your disbelief of Jesus' words.

Besides, it is those who practice righteousness who are righteous.

Just answer my question, please.

btw, who do you know who has kept the Law "continuously" in their lives? Anyone?

I will ask you, which of the ten commandments do you not obey? Which one(s) give you a problem? Does lying give you problems? Do adultery give you problems? Does stealing give you problems? Why do you have problems with keeping His commandments?

John said if you don't keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. You are telling the whole world your your status if you don't keep the commandments.

Instead of asking who has kept the commandments, why don't you get on your knees and ask Jesus to help you keep them? Excuses for not doing them will not get you anywhere.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I will persist as long as you do not believe what Jesus said.

I have already refuted your erroneous ideas about what Jesus said. And shown what He actually said about receiving eternal life. It's about faith in Him, not obeying Laws.

Jesus answered the question, 'what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' By now, you know Jesus' answer. Why can't you believe Jesus? How is it you say you believe in Jesus, but you really don't.

Reasonable scholars all agree that Jesus never even engaged in evangelism, but rather, what is called pre-evangelism.

The man thought he was keeping the law, but Jesus knew he wasn't and brought the "chink" in his armor; his wealth. That was more important to him than everything else.

What Jesus said has you denying Jesus and His words -

'IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.'

I just explained what that meant, and all you've done is disagree without any kind of evidence to the contrary.

If your understanding were true, then ALL the verses about faith in Christ for eternal life are untrue. Nonsense.

Besides, it is those who practice righteousness who are righteous.

Nope. Righteousness is credited on the basis of faith. It's imputed. According to Romans 4:
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.
22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”
23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,
24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

It appears that you are totally unfamiliar with Scripture and what it teaches.

This is what the Bible teaches about the Law:
Rom 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

This single verse refutes your theories. Plus all of Romans 4.

 

[TheSeabass]

The sheep that "enter through Me" from v.9.

In v27 Jesus said MY SHEEP hear and follow Me. One cannot be a sheep of Christ without a present tense hearing and following making it IMPOSSIBLE for one to be of the sheep of v28 without hearing and following Christ. This creates is a direct tie between hearing and following Christ of v27 and being of the sheep in v28. A Christian therefore MUST be faithful in hearing and following Christ to be a sheep in v28 that God is faithful to. If a Christian is NOT faith in his hearing and following (v27) then he will NOT be of the sheep in v28 God is faithful to. John 10:27-28 show both sides to salvation 1) the requirement of faithfulness in Christians and 2) God's faithfulness to those in the group Christian. No OSAS to be found in the context.

v.27 isn't a requirement for NEVER PERISHING. It's a description of His sheep. The requirement for being one of His sheep comes from John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for one to be of the sheep that shall not perish without that one hearing and following Christ (present tense). Will you argue one can be of the sheep in v28 yet never having to hear and follow Christ?

The chapter BEGINS with sheep. And v.9 is the requirement for being saved, or receiving eternal life.

One can be a sheep of CHrist without hearing and following Christ per John10:27? Not possible.

Actually...no where in Scripture do we read of His sheep becoming "not His sheep", or sheep becoming goats.

Sheep and goats are used metaphorically. If one quits hearing and following are you saying he still remains a saved sheep? Sheep can become lost Luke 15:4-7 and if it remains lost it will be separated and be with the goats on judgment day Matthew 25:32-33.

I proved it from v.9, whereby one of "the sheep" gets saved and becomes one of "His sheep", who WILL NEVER PERISH.


I repeat; v.9 tells us plainly.

You are avoiding in dealing with v27 that requires a present tense hearing and following o be of Christ sheep and of the sheep in v28.

That is not how one receives eternal life and therefore, WILL NEVER PERISH.

Jesus taught us how one receives (possesses/HAS) eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.


I just did.

Now, otoh, please show me where the Bible requires "obedient works" in order to NEVER PERISH.

And I mean plain and clear verses. Not ones that require assumption.

Again, v27 requires a present tense hearing and following Christ (Obedient works) in order to be a sheep of v 28. No one can ever be of the sheep of v28 without having a obedient works based hearing and following. Again, who will come here and try to argue the impossible in trying to get one be of the sheep in v28 WITHOUT that one EVER HAVING TO HEAR AND FOLLOW Christ??[/QUOTE]

 

[Neatz]

You put the emphasis on the sheep, and what THEY must DO as some sort of pre-requisite, but you overlook one tiny HUGE word ...... MY.

Jesus said MY sheep hear MY voice and they follow ME and I GIVE (Give...as in GIFT...Not something we earn, borrow, or could ever merit, but HE GIVES) to them (us) eternal life, and they (we) shall never perish...
Jesus said it ...JESUS. These sheep are mine!

He didn't say, See those sheep over there? Gosh, I HOPE they hear my voice, and I HOPE they follow me (and that means everywhere at all times) so that I can give , or at least offer them, eternal life, I hope.
No...
He said we're HIS ..... HIS sheep ... We belong to Him. And if there's any doubt about it, read on : ... Neither shall ANY one pluck them out of my hand.

Need more confirmation?
My Father, WHICH GAVE THEM ME, is greater than all, and no one is able (NO ONE IS ABLE) to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

That, my friends, is about as secure as one can get! Is there anything that Jesus calls MINE that either man or devil can take from Him?
Is there anything the Father gives to the Son that can be taken from Him?
Is there anything in the Father's hand, that can be plucked out of it?
And to put an even greater seal of assurance on it, Jesus said, I and My Father are one!

What He's saying is not that we hear His voice and follow Him in order to BECOME His sheep, but because we ALREADY ARE!
That's whh we love and praise Him, hear and follow Him, because we are His.
Do we always get it right, and perfect? No, of course not...we're sheep! But we are HIS sheep, He's given us eternal life, we shall never perish, and no one can pluck us out of His hand!

 

[MDC]

In v27 Jesus said MY SHEEP hear and follow Me. One cannot be a sheep of Christ without a present tense hearing and following making it IMPOSSIBLE for one to be of the sheep of v28 without hearing and following Christ. This creates is a direct tie between hearing and following Christ of v27 and being of the sheep in v28. A Christian therefore MUST be faithful in hearing and following Christ to be a sheep in v28 that God is faithful to. If a Christian is NOT faith in his hearing and following (v27) then he will NOT be of the sheep in v28 God is faithful to. John 10:27-28 show both sides to salvation 1) the requirement of faithfulness in Christians and 2) God's faithfulness to those in the group Christian. No OSAS to be found in the context.



It is IMPOSSIBLE for one to be of the sheep that shall not perish without that one hearing and following Christ (present tense). Will you argue one can be of the sheep in v28 yet never having to hear and follow Christ?



One can be a sheep of CHrist without hearing and following Christ per John10:27? Not possible.



Sheep and goats are used metaphorically. If one quits hearing and following are you saying he still remains a saved sheep? Sheep can become lost Luke 15:4-7 and if it remains lost it will be separated and be with the goats on judgment day Matthew 25:32-33.



You are avoiding in dealing with v27 that requires a present tense hearing and following o be of Christ sheep and of the sheep in v28.



Again, v27 requires a present tense hearing and following Christ (Obedient works) in order to be a sheep of v 28. No one can ever be of the sheep of v28 without having a obedient works based hearing and following. Again, who will come here and try to argue the impossible in trying to get one be of the sheep in v28 WITHOUT that one EVER HAVING TO HEAR AND FOLLOW Christ??

[/QUOTE]
Since you believe you are saved, what exactly did Christ Jesus do to save you from your sin? Since you believe one can lose it

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"The sheep that "enter through Me" from v.9."

In v27 Jesus said MY SHEEP hear and follow Me.

So, just jettison the CONDITION for getting saved and therefore receiving eternal life?

Second, v.27 is NOT a condition for receiving eternal life. It is a description of normal behavior of His sheep. Certainly not all of His sheep.

One cannot be a sheep of Christ without a present tense hearing and following making it IMPOSSIBLE for one to be of the sheep of v28 without hearing and following Christ.

That's NOT a condition for receiving eternal life. It isn't even phrased that way.

John 10:27-28 show both sides to salvation 1) the requirement of faithfulness in Christians and 2) God's faithfulness to those in the group Christian. No OSAS to be found in the context.

It's not found by those not looking. Or not wanting to find.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for one to be of the sheep that shall not perish without that one hearing and following Christ (present tense).

The present tense has been abused. It doesn't mean continuous for the rest of one's life, as is being presented.

We know this from how Jesus used it in Luke 8:13 and the 2nd soil that "believed for a while". Jesus used the present tense. So let's not make more of it than is warranted.

Will you argue one can be of the sheep in v28 yet never having to hear and follow Christ?

I will argue exactly what Jesus said about being saved: "entering through Him", from v.9.

One can be a sheep of CHrist without hearing and following Christ per John10:27? Not possible.

Becoming a sheep of His is by "entering through him", which is a metaphor for believing in Christ.

Sheep and goats are used metaphorically.

Not in John 10. Let's stick with context.

If one quits hearing and following are you saying he still remains a saved sheep?

The Bible says so. Plainly. Eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23. God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

Sheep can become lost Luke 15:4-7 and if it remains lost it will be separated and be with the goats on judgment day Matthew 25:32-33.

Becoming 'lost' refers to fellowship, just as the prodigal son demonstrates. He remained a son throughout his rebellion, and the father remained the father throughout.

You are avoiding in dealing with v27 that requires a present tense hearing and following o be of Christ sheep and of the sheep in v28.

You've abused the present tense. As I've shown from Luke 8:13. Your argument is with Jesus's words.

Again, v27 requires a present tense hearing and following Christ (Obedient works) in order to be a sheep of v 28. No one can ever be of the sheep of v28 without having a obedient works based hearing and following. Again, who will come here and try to argue the impossible in trying to get one be of the sheep in v28 WITHOUT that one EVER HAVING TO HEAR AND FOLLOW Christ??

You've ignored how one becomes one of His sheep from v.9. And you're abusing the present tense. It doesn't mean what you want it to mean.

 

[TheSeabass]

I said this:
"The sheep that "enter through Me" from v.9."

So, just jettison the CONDITION for getting saved and therefore receiving eternal life?

One cannot enter through Christ without hearing and following Him, John 10:4 " and the sheep follow him" and John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

All I am getting from your posts so far are two IMPOSSIBILITIES:
1) one can enter though Christ without hearing and following Christ
2) one can be of the sheep in John 10:28 without hearing and following Christ

OSAS is not found in John 10 or anywhere else. Your argument:
1) is faulty and dead
2) conveniently ignores the requirement of the present tense hearing and following to be of Christ sheep

Second, v.27 is NOT a condition for receiving eternal life. It is a description of normal behavior of His sheep. Certainly not all of His sheep.

Yes, hearing and following is a necessary condition to being saved for one CANNOT be a sheep of Christ without hearing and following Christ.

You are still pushing the IMPOSSIBILITY that one can be a sheep of v28 yet without having to hear and follow Christ.

Please point out to me from the NT a person who was a Christian (sheep of CHrist) but never heard or followed Christ.

That's NOT a condition for receiving eternal life. It isn't even phrased that way.

Your argument is dead, faulty and not worth consideration by anyone for you are trying to make an IMPOSSIBILITY possible by trying to get one to be a Christian, a sheep of v28 WITHOUT having to hear and follow Christ,. Then you want us to believe that one can "enter through Christ" without again having to hear and follow Christ.



[quote-FreeGrace2]
It's not found by those not looking. Or not wanting to find.[/quote]

I posted John 10:27-28 show both sides to salvation 1) the requirement of faithfulness in Christians and 2) God's faithfulness to those in the group Christian. No OSAS to be found in the context.

You have not yet proven otherwise. IF one quits hearing and following Christ v27GOd has no obligation to save that person anyway in v28. The sheep in v28 are the ones that maintain a faithful present tense hearing and following.

Are you going to continue to ague the IMPOSSIBILITY that one can quit hearing and following Christ yet God will save that person anyway.

OSAS is not in Jn 10:27-28 yet men try to force it there and create a host of impossibilities and contradictions. No one can find what is not there and never has been there.

The present tense has been abused. It doesn't mean continuous for the rest of one's life, as is being presented.

We know this from how Jesus used it in Luke 8:13 and the 2nd soil that "believed for a while". Jesus used the present tense. So let's not make more of it than is warranted.

The present tense is not abused, it (along with the subjunctive mood) gets in the way of those that believe in OSAS so they just want to ignore it.

By your attempt to ignore the present tense of the verbs "hear" and "follow" in John 10:27 you are claiming then that one can hear and follow "for a while" then quit hearing and following yet still be saved?????

Luke 18:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

If they had maintained a present tense "receive" and "believe" they would continue to remain in a saved state. Yet they did not and fell away. No OSAS for them.

Yet your argument is one can quit receiving the word, quit hearing (Lk 18:13) and still be saved anyway just as one can quit hearing and following Christ (Jn 10:27) and be saved anyway. IMPOSSIBLE.

I will argue exactly what Jesus said about being saved: "entering through Him", from v.9.

Yes, but you are purposely ignoring what Jesus said in John 10:27 for it kills our OSAS theory.

1) Can one enter through Christ and be saved WITHOUT EVER hearing and following Christ?
2) Can one be a sheep of Christ and a sheep of v28 WITHOUT EVER hearing and following Christ?

No one both counts, your argument is dead.

Becoming a sheep of His is by "entering through him", which is a metaphor for believing in Christ.

Is the "believing" that I highlighted in blue a present tense belief?
Or can one believe for a "little while" then quit and still be a sheep of Christ, that will still be saved in unbelief?

Not in John 10. Let's stick with context.

No literal woolly, four legged mammals are under consideration in John 10 or Luke 15.

The Bible says so. Plainly. Eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23. God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

You are taking Rom 11:29 out of context to try and make it mean something it does not.

--John 3:18 unbelief is an condemned already state not a saved state.
--God never UNconditionally promised salvation, it is conditional on a person maintaining a faithful hearing and believing. Therefore if one quits hearing and believing then he enters an "condemned already" state of unbelief. So Rom 11:29 has nothing to do with God making unconditional promises about eternal life to a point that God will not "revoke" His promise and still save an unbeliever.

(The context of Romans 11:15-24 is about God casting off His once chosen people the Jews...so no OSAS for them. God casting the Jews off left them lost, yet God had promised Abraham many centuries earlier that ".... in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed....". The phrase "all nations of the earth" includes the Jews. So if God had cast the Jews off to a point where salvation was impossible for them, then God would have to revoke this promise He made to Abraham. Yet God still left the door afar for the Jews (for they are beloved for the fathers sake v28) to find salvation through Christ even though the Jews continue to reject Christ making salvation impossible for themselves. Yet through it all God's promise to Abraham was not revoked...."are without repentance" - repentance here means sorry, God was still not sorry for the gifts and calling He made with the Jews. It is an unbelievable stretch to get OSAS out of this when the Jews were not OSAS.)

Becoming 'lost' refers to fellowship, just as the prodigal son demonstrates. He remained a son throughout his rebellion, and the father remained the father throughout.

If one is not in fellowship he is lost > not walking in the light 1 John 1:7 . The sheep was LOST. A person does not go and look for things that are not lost.


You've abused the present tense. As I've shown from Luke 8:13. Your argument is with Jesus's words.

You've ignored how one becomes one of His sheep from v.9. And you're abusing the present tense. It doesn't mean what you want it to mean.

No, I can clearly see verse 9. The issue here is that you do not want to look at John 10:27 for this reason:

If one must hear and follow Christ to be of "MY sheep", then that means the sheep in v28 must conditionally be faithful in hearing and follow Christ. Yet if one quits hearing and following Christ then he is no longer of the sheep in v28 and OSAS goes down in flames. One is not of "MY Sheep" if he quits hearing and following and therefore is no longer of the sheep in v28. This is the obvious thing you are trying to avoid by running back up to verse 9. And verse 9 does not help your argument all all either.

The bible teaches salvation is conditional while OSAS says it is UNconditional.

Can one enter through the door and be of "MY Sheep" without ever having to hear and follow Christ? The bible says "no" you say "yes".

 

[TheSeabass]

Since you believe you are saved, what exactly did Christ Jesus do to save you from your sin? Since you believe one can lose it[/QUOTE]

Christ shed His blood for every man Hebrews 2:9, which includes me.

So why isn't every man saved? For every man will not ever come to believe in Christ or those that do come to believe in Christ will not faithfully maintain a lifelong hearing and following of Christ. No verse promises salvation to those that become unfaithful in their hearing and following of Christ.

 

[TheSeabass]

You put the emphasis on the sheep, and what THEY must DO as some sort of pre-requisite, but you overlook one tiny HUGE word ...... MY.

Jesus said MY sheep hear MY voice and they follow ME and I GIVE (Give...as in GIFT...Not something we earn, borrow, or could ever merit, but HE GIVES) to them (us) eternal life, and they (we) shall never perish...
Jesus said it ...JESUS. These sheep are mine!

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Can one be of "MY sheep" without hearing and following Christ? No, not possible at all.

SO there is a prerequisite required (hearing and following) to be of "MY sheep".

Will you try and argue one can UNconditonally be of "MY sheep" WITHOUT having to conditionally hear and follow?

He didn't say, See those sheep over there? Gosh, I HOPE they hear my voice, and I HOPE they follow me (and that means everywhere at all times) so that I can give , or at least offer them, eternal life, I hope.
No...
He said we're HIS ..... HIS sheep ... We belong to Him. And if there's any doubt about it, read on : ... Neither shall ANY one pluck them out of my hand.

Again, who are "MY sheep":
1) the ones that hear and follow
or
2) the ones that do not hear and follow?

The sheep in v28 where 'neither shall pluck them out of my hand" are the sheep that have a faithful hearing and following of v27.

As I asked FreeGrace2 I will ask you:

Can one be of the sheep in John 10:28 WITHOUT EVER having to hear and follow Christ?

If you answer "yes" then you are creating a biblical impossibility.
If you answer "no" then you are making being of the sheep in v28 CONDITIONAL upon a faithful present tense hearing and following whereby if one quits hearing and following then he is no longer of the sheep in v28 and kill the OSAS argument here in this passage.

Need more confirmation?
My Father, WHICH GAVE THEM ME, is greater than all, and no one is able (NO ONE IS ABLE) to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

And who are the ones that cannot be plucked out of God's hand?

1) the ones that conditnally maintain a present tense hearing and following
or
2) those that never hear and follow Christ or who have quit hearing and following Christ?

That, my friends, is about as secure as one can get! Is there anything that Jesus calls MINE that either man or devil can take from Him?
Is there anything the Father gives to the Son that can be taken from Him?
Is there anything in the Father's hand, that can be plucked out of it?
And to put an even greater seal of assurance on it, Jesus said, I and My Father are one!

As long as one CONDITIONALLY maintains a present tense hearing and following of Christ he will be secure in God's hand.

The issue is this, what if one QUITS hearing and following Christ? Will he still remain secure in God's hand? No. The only sheep in v28 are those that conditionally continue to hear and follow Christ.

Your position seems to be that even if one quits hearing and following Christ, he somehow still remains one of "MY sheep" and remains in God's hand and remains saved in his unbelief....which is not biblically possible for the unbelieving are lost.

What He's saying is not that we hear His voice and follow Him in order to BECOME His sheep, but because we ALREADY ARE!
That's whh we love and praise Him, hear and follow Him, because we are His.
Do we always get it right, and perfect? No, of course not...we're sheep! But we are HIS sheep, He's given us eternal life, we shall never perish, and no one can pluck us out of His hand!

You posted "What He's saying is not that we hear His voice and follow Him in order to BECOME His sheep, but because we ALREADY ARE!"

This is not possible for this has one already saved BEFORE he even hears and follows Christ. How can one ALREADY be saved when he has never even heard Christ? Not possible. Yourself and FreeGrace2 are creating biblical IMPOSSIBILITIES to avoid the force of the language in John 10:27-28.

 

[FreeGrace2]

One cannot enter through Christ without hearing and following Him, John 10:4 " and the sheep follow him" and John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

Those aren't verses about how to get saved. That is found in v.9. And entering through "the gate", which is Christ, is figurative for believing in Him, as many other verses testify.

All I am getting from your posts so far are two IMPOSSIBILITIES:
1) one can enter though Christ without hearing and following Christ
2) one can be of the sheep in John 10:28 without hearing and following Christ

What you've "gotten" from my posts aren't IN my posts.

Did you know that John 5:24 contains the word "hears" along with "believes"?

iow, one cannot believe in Christ until they hear the gospel.

So your conclusions about my posts are seriously in error.

OSAS is not found in John 10 or anywhere else.

Your opinion is unfounded.

Your argument:
1) is faulty and dead

Your opinion is unfounded.

2) conveniently ignores the requirement of the present tense hearing and following to be of Christ sheep

This is merely abuse of the present tense, which does NOT mean continuously til the end of your life. Or Jesus was quite wrong to use the present tense for "believe" in Luke 8:13.

How come you've not addressed the present tense in that verse, which is followed by "for a while".

Please explain how the present tense works in that verse.

You are still pushing the IMPOSSIBILITY that one can be a sheep of v28 yet without having to hear and follow Christ.

Maybe you'll finally read this post and realize your error.

Your argument is dead, faulty and not worth consideration by anyone for you are trying to make an IMPOSSIBILITY possible by trying to get one to be a Christian, a sheep of v28 WITHOUT having to hear and follow Christ,. Then you want us to believe that one can "enter through Christ" without again having to hear and follow Christ.

Just keep repeating yourself, all the while without any evidence for your own views.

I posted John 10:27-28 show both sides to salvation 1) the requirement of faithfulness in Christians and 2) God's faithfulness to those in the group Christian. No OSAS to be found in the context.

Since v.27 is NOT a condition for receiving eternal life, your comments are irrelevant.

You have not yet proven otherwise. IF one quits hearing and following Christ v27GOd has no obligation to save that person anyway in v28.

If that were true, then Jesus would have made that a condition IN v.28. It'd go something like this:

"I give them (my sheep) eternal life, and IF they continue to follow Me WILL NEVER PERISH."

That's how to express a condition for NEVER PERISHING.

But as it is, the ONLY CONDITION that Jesus gave for NEVER PERISHING is to simply receive the gift of eternal life.

Further, if your view were correct, then Paul would have lied when he described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God and then wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable (11:29).

Your view makes Paul (and therefore the Bible itself) a LIAR.

The sheep in v28 are the ones that maintain a faithful present tense hearing and following.

There is no such condition in v.28.

Are you going to continue to ague the IMPOSSIBILITY that one can quit hearing and following Christ yet God will save that person anyway.

I never did. Are you going to finally read what I post and quit all these false charges?

The present tense is not abused, it (along with the subjunctive mood) gets in the way of those that believe in OSAS so they just want to ignore it.

Go ahead and cite any legitimate source that tells us that the Greek present tense means action to the end of one's life.

This is from:Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

"For action happening at the present time, only the 'present tense' is available. Whether the writer is wishing in any particular instance to emphasis the progressive aspect of the verb or just indicate a simple occurrence at the present time, there is only one choice of tense to use. Therefore, one must consider the context and the basic meaning of the verb to determine whether the emphasis is on the continuous aspect of the action or merely on the present time element. It may be that no real emphasis on progressive action is intended but, for a statement requiring the element of present time, there is no choice but to use the 'present tense'. (Of course outside the indicative mood the emphasis almost certainly will be on the progressive element of the verb, since the aorist tense could readily be employed)."

So, one must PROVE that John intended progressive action.

But the FACT is that John used the "indicative mood" in v.27 for "follow", so the definition above shows that only a "present time element" was intended.

Luke 18:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

Once again, please explain "believe for a while" in the present tense, given your abused meaning. Here, Jesus also used the "indicative mood" for "believe", giving it a 'present time element' understanding, which is OBVIOUS from "for a while" connected to "believe".

If they had maintained a present tense "receive" and "believe" they would continue to remain in a saved state. Yet they did not and fell away. No OSAS for them.

More abuse of the present tense.

Yes, but you are purposely ignoring what Jesus said in John 10:27 for it kills our OSAS theory.

No, I addressed it DIRECTLY. It is a description of His sheep generally, and NOT a CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING.

Again, the ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING is to receive the gift of eternal life. Which directly aligns with Paul's teaching in Romans that eternal life, a gift of God (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Is the "believing" that I highlighted in blue a present tense belief?
Or can one believe for a "little while" then quit and still be a sheep of Christ, that will still be saved in unbelief?

Please go ahead and prove the opposite then.

No literal woolly, four legged mammals are under consideration in John 10 or Luke 15.

My point was clear: there are no mentions of 'goats' in John 10. So don't try to bring them up in any discussion of ch 10.

You are taking Rom 11:29 out of context to try and make it mean something it does not.

Then PLEASE explain what id does mean. I keep getting this comment, yet without any evidence to back it up.

What was Paul referring to by "gifts of God" in 11:29? Please explain.

(The context of Romans 11:15-24 is about God casting off His once chosen people the Jews...so no OSAS for them. God casting the Jews off left them lost, yet God had promised Abraham many centuries earlier that ".... in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed....". The phrase "all nations of the earth" includes the Jews. So if God had cast the Jews off to a point where salvation was impossible for them, then God would have to revoke this promise He made to Abraham. Yet God still left the door afar for the Jews (for they are beloved for the fathers sake v28) to find salvation through Christ even though the Jews continue to reject Christ making salvation impossible for themselves. Yet through it all God's promise to Abraham was not revoked...."are without repentance" - repentance here means sorry, God was still not sorry for the gifts and calling He made with the Jews. It is an unbelievable stretch to get OSAS out of this when the Jews were not OSAS.)

So what was Paul referring to by "gifts of God are irrevocable"? And what "call of God" was Paul referring to?

If one is not in fellowship he is lost > not walking in the light 1 John 1:7 . The sheep was LOST. A person does not go and look for things that are not lost.

I'd sure like a verse or several that actually backs up your opinions.

No, I can clearly see verse 9. The issue here is that you do not want to look at John 10:27 for this reason:

There is no "reason". I've thoroughly explained v.27 as well as the PROPER understanding of the present tense when in the indicative mood.

The bible teaches salvation is conditional while OSAS says it is UNconditional.

Where, specifically, does the Bible teach that salvation is conditional??