Where did the Church first go wrong?

[DrBubbaLove]

Except the one burnt at the stake Ahhr happy days.

Interesting approach to someone obviously sharing at least some of the opinion apparently wanting to be shared here. Well, at least there is disrespect shown for many different Christian faiths, not just Catholics. There is that, not sure how it helps the suggestion that God made a huge mistake selecting men morally inferior to and less resolute in their faith in God than oneself.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't think voting is the same as casting the lot. According to the OT lot was cast to determine the will of God in many cases, notably the Yom Kippur sacrifice, and even played the center of Purim. Proverbs 16:33 seems to indicate the the Lord controls the outcome of the casting of lots. It is shown to effectively expose Jonah 1:7. There were 12 apostles to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles; I'm not sure a legitimate case can be made against the apostles here.

As for where did the church first go wrong, I would say when it accepted the doctrine of Judaizers to become circumcised and keep the law in the flesh, which caused Christ to become of no effect. Doesn't get much more wrong than that. Galatians 5:3-4

The Church didn't accept the doctrine of the Judaizers...

 

[Rick Otto]

The Church Jesus built didn't split. Some left, but that doesn't change the Church.

I'll agree to disagree.

 

[Albion]

Interesting approach to someone obviously sharing at least some of the opinion apparently wanting to be shared here. Well, at least there is disrespect shown for many different Christian faiths, not just Catholics. There is that, not sure how it helps the suggestion that God made a huge mistake selecting men morally inferior to and less resolute in their faith in God than oneself.

You're right to try to keep the discussion on topic, but since our friend made mention of some bishop being burned, I wondered whom he had in mind.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

That's incorrect. The HS came at Pentecost, which is 10 days after Ascension. That happens right after Acts 1:4. Then in 1:16, Peter announces that the "Holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David." Later on he says "Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection.” So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.”Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles."

The Holy Spirit was with them, but at Pentecost, it came upon the whole Church.

Pentecost was after the lot casting and Peter misinterpreted the prophesy:

Acts: 1:20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: “ ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, “ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’

David, speaking thought the Spirit leaves a command: 'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,'

Peter fail to heed this command but instead heard: 'May another take his place of leadership' and erroneously thought it was down to him to fulfil this but that's not what it says, it simply states another would take Judas' place. Which in hind-sight was clearly Paul as Jesus selected Paul in spectacular fashion. What Peter should have done was to stand up and say what David prophesied and then prayed that God, Jesus and the coming Holy Spirit would help them to recognise who this would be and then to leave it with God etc until Jesus etc acted. But then Peter was often impulsive.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

Why would Paul be elected? He was alive, then, at age 38, and he approved of Stephen's stoning. It wasn't until 4 years AFTER the death of Stephen that Saul was on the road to Damascus, and Jesus knocked him off his donkey.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Agreed, rather sad too. But am use to it in controversial section, less expected to find someone here discussing their "theology" so willing to raise himself above all the Apostles just to justify his negative opinion about the Church.

I have to admit that I often snide catholics about the victim card because that is the go-to when anyone is debating but you must see that catholics are just as entitled to downplay our whine when an individual is in their way of being heard too.

But as always lingo needs correction and most will find they are saying the same thing. jmho

 

[Monk Brendan]

I hope you don't try to teach other's. On second thought's you're probably high up in the church. Would explain a lot.

I apologize. You were right on this point, and I was wrong.

BTW, I am not high up in the Church. I am the lowliest of the monks in the Melkite Church

 

[Albion]

Pentecost was after the lot casting and Peter misinterpreted the prophesy:

Acts: 1:20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: “ ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, “ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’

David, speaking thought the Spirit leaves a command: 'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,'

Peter fail to heed this command but instead heard: 'May another take his place of leadership' and erroneously thought it was down to him to fulfil this but that's not what it says, it simply states another would take Judas' place. Which in hind-sight was clearly Paul as Jesus selected Paul in spectacular fashion. What Peter should have done was to stand up and say what David prophesied and then prayed that God, Jesus and the coming Holy Spirit would help them to recognise who this would be and then to leave it with God etc until Jesus etc acted. But then Peter was often impulsive.

Could we just say that you've presented your case and they've presented theirs so that now it's in the hands of all readers to decide who has made the more convincing presentation??

 

[Guide To The Bible]

You're right to try to keep the discussion on topic, but since our friend made mention of some bishop being burned, I wondered whom he had in mind.

now that might of been me?

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Church went wrong when it became worldly. When it started amassing estates and power.
When exactly this date is is an open question, for power plays were obviously already present even before Constantine allowed freedom of religion in the Empire.

Luckily there have been reform movements throughout history to get it at least to see the right path, be they internal like the Benedictines, Clunaic or Franciscan reforms or schismatic like the Protestant Reformation.
God will call his own home and is obviously looking after his Church, even if sinful human nature tends to try and corrupt it continuously.

Even at the time of Antony of the Dessert. IT seems the Church gets lax when the world creeps in. It was so even in the mid-3rd century.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I'm sorry to hear it. I would be embarrassed to associate myself with repetitious, deliberately provocative, unnecessarily personal, and--let's admit it--unhelpful rants.

Rather my whole point in reply to someone who should know better than to enter a thread and make a comment directly associating themselves with and at least tacitly seen as supporting someone already doing so. It should embarrass.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I apologize. You were right on this point, and I was wrong.

BTW, I am not high up in the Church. I am the lowliest of the monks in the Melkite Church

Just glad I could help

 

[Monk Brendan]

Parables 1:1
Patients is a virtue

Patients are what doctors have. Patience is what God has called all of us to have.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Agreed, rather sad too. But am use to it in controversial section, less expected to find someone here discussing their "theology" so willing to raise himself above all the Apostles just to justify his negative opinion about the Church.

30 pages in and you've still not got the point. I think someone here said they were 84 years old, was it you?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Not from the Bible...

Yes i know that, we we're off topic but that was not my fault.

 

[Monk Brendan]

It would be remiss of me not to.

But if I say to you that you are the one who needs time on the couch, or similar such nonsense, I get a warning. Why?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

The Holy Spirit guides the individuals who have authority in the Church. They're always right in matters of faith and morals. As humans they can be wicked, even, as some popes were. But when it comes to the faith, and morals, they're always right.

What !!! Which numpty theological book did that come from? The HS is in all the saved who can be found throughout all the churches but to say; " The Holy Spirit guides the individuals who have authority in the Church. They're always right in matters of faith and morals." Is some kind of scary lunacy. Please don't tell me you are a paid member of the church. I know things are bad but God help us.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Who was that?

I can't remember who else said about it or why but I did mention once but i think I got away with it

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Well it wasn't me that brought up the Catholics first! Laodacians they may be but they are still my brothers and sister in Christ.

Dude, you brought up Catholics in your first statement in the OP!!!!
" The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church because it is a man made system that is open to corruption and is the problem at the centre of the Catholic Church."

The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church because it is a man made system that is open to corruption and is the problem at the centre of the Catholic Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.