Where did the Church first go wrong?

[Guide To The Bible]

Is that reply necessary?

It would be remiss of me not to.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Acts 2:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Excuse me, but that happened AFTER the Holy Spirit fell, and therefore all of the Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit

 

[Rick Otto]

No, @Guide To The Bible, God is involved. As you can read from the summary posted elsewhere, the Holy Spirit is invoked not once, but many times during the election process. Or have you decided that all of the election stuff is a big show for the public, and the electors wait on satan to show which one is the new pope. In which case, satan is stronger than God, and the gates of hell have prevailed, and all of God's work, including the Crucifixion and Resurrection, the coming of the Holy Spirit, and so on are invalid and void, and it wasn't until Martin Luther came along that God stepped in, and made Christians.

That Satan is stronger than God because he can corrupt a split, earthly organization called church isn't a logical necessity. Also, it ignores the broader and still legitimate definition of church which transcends all categories excepting belief.

 

[Rick Otto]

Excuse me, but that happened AFTER the Holy Spirit fell, and therefore all of the Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit

Let's assume He sill has possible, that level of guidance among believers.

 

[Albion]

These Churches broke the line. They cut their vines and wandered away.

No. They did not. The line of consecrations was never broken in either the Scandinavian Lutheran case or that of the Church of England. Those bishops (or some of them) who were in place before the Reformation simply continued on under their church after it had been reformed, and then they consecrated their successors as always.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Excuse me, but that happened AFTER the Holy Spirit fell, and therefore all of the Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit

I hope you don't try to teach other's. On second thought's you're probably high up in the church. Would explain a lot.

 

[Monk Brendan]

(4) As decades passed, the church got careless about the need for a vetting system to assure that Scriptural writings were actually written by apostles and eyewitnesses of Jesus. As a result, several pseudonymous Christian writings were widely circulated and deceived many as to their authenticity.

And were corrected in the First Ecumenical Council in 325 A.D.

 

[Albion]

Please, because I am stupid, give me an outline of Christianity in the first 1000 years. Then we can talk about Henry VIII

Not sure what you're asking for here, Father. Surely you are not requesting a lecture covering the whole of Christian Church history from Pentecost to the Great Schism. (I hope)

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Why is a simple disagreement is always blown into church hating?
Is it from being on the defensive since 1054?

You would have to ask the OP as that was the poster that firmly took the thread in that direction and needed to be reacted to. If you follow the arrows in the upper left part of your reply to my post to him you'll see where we took a left turn.

 

[Thursday]

That Satan is stronger than God because he can corrupt a split, earthly organization called church isn't a logical necessity. Also, it ignores the broader and still legitimate definition of church which transcends all categories excepting belief.

The Church Jesus built didn't split. Some left, but that doesn't change the Church.

 

[Monk Brendan]

not sure how the pope is a byproduct of a choice in acts though......and not sure why this is a big deal or why this is even a major component to why the church is in the state it's in today.

Lovely. Just on page 2, and already the anti-Catholic rhetoric appears.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It was not the Holy Spirit guiding them as you mistakenly think because the Holy Spirit had not been given yet.

That's incorrect. The HS came at Pentecost, which is 10 days after Ascension. That happens right after Acts 1:4. Then in 1:16, Peter announces that the "Holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David." Later on he says "Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection.” So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.”Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles."

The Holy Spirit was with them, but at Pentecost, it came upon the whole Church.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

No. They did not. The line of consecrations was never broken in either the Scandinavian Lutheran case or that of the Church of England. Those bishops (or some of them) who were in place before the Reformation simply continued on under their church after it had been reformed, and then they consecrated their successors as always.

Except the ones burnt at the stake Ahhr happy days.

 

[Thursday]

No. They did not. The line of consecrations was never broken in either the Scandinavian Lutheran case or that of the Church of England. Those bishops (or some of them) who were in place before the Reformation simply continued on under their church after it had been reformed, and then they consecrated their successors as always.

Yes they were broken. The broke communion with the Church. This is not debatable.

The claimed their source was illegitimate. That is not a succession of any kind. It is a rebellion.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

seems the curse of cf forums to be inappropriately nonorthodox

Agreed, rather sad too. But am use to it in controversial section, less expected to find someone here discussing their "theology" so willing to raise himself above all the Apostles just to justify his negative opinion about the Church.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Alpheus and Bartholomew are written about after that time and we know quite a lot about what they did, where they went, who they met, how they died etc. Nothing about Matthias though.

Not from the Bible...

 

[Root of Jesse]

So the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong but the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong but the individuals who make up the church go wrong but the Church they make up never goes wrong. Hang on is this one of those mobius strips?

The Holy Spirit guides the individuals who have authority in the Church. They're always right in matters of faith and morals. As humans they can be wicked, even, as some popes were. But when it comes to the faith, and morals, they're always right.

 

[Albion]

Except the one burnt at the stake Ahhr happy days.

Who was that?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I stand corrected, thanks but Paul did far more. He wrote 32% of the NT for a start, more than anyone else. My point still stands.

What's the point? Paul wrote 100% more than Jesus wrote...

 

[Albion]

Yes they were broken. The broke communion with the Church.

You might have a point somewhere in there--if we were discussing something else. But we have been discussing Apostolic Succession in the non-Roman episcopal churches, and these did not experience any break in the lineage.