The only way to know God exists is by him proving it to you

[awitch]

Such numbers arent very helpful when there are more christians than any other belief system in the world. But I say don't believe something because someone told you but find out for yourself.

That's why I pursued the path of the Witch for 20 years. As a "church" of one, every detail is about exploring on my own.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

So how forgiving is god if one is sincere but ultimately finds a [very] non-Christian path while following his heart?



Are you sure you want to use Mother Theresa as a real representative?

If one believes God exists and sincerely asks him to lead you to the true path towards him and the christian God is true and your path leads to the non christian God. Then that is on God not you. That said I don't think God will fail you if you ask sincerely for the truth.

As far as mother theresa, interesting link. Clearly there are better examples but I don't know of any one popular enough to say their names. But I think you know there are sincere christians who truly do believe in God. You may not agree their God is the true God but i'm sure you don't doubt they truly believe it.

 

[tansy]

That's not very helpful for the people who don't already believe the Bible is an authority, is it?



Only the god of the gaps is self evident.

What is this God of the gaps? From what I've understood, it is that people assume that because we don't know/understand everything (the gaps), then we attribute those things to God. However, if one believes that God created the universe (possibly even multiverses, etc) then everything whether we understand it or not, can be attributed to God. In fact, as we understand more and more, it just makes God even more amazing.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

That's why I pursued the path of the Witch for 20 years. As a "church" of one, every detail is about exploring on my own.

And I respect you for following your heart and going by what you truly believe to be the truth. It is better for you to not be a christian and believe what you believe to be true than to act like you believe in christianity when you don't. Because a person like you has a better chance of finding the true God due to being honest than someone who is a christian but only by what they say and not what they truly believe. I don't believe in playing it safe. I say go all in with your beliefs. Live by faith and die by it. And let us all deal with whatever consequences there are for that.

 

[awitch]

What is this God of the gaps? From what I've understood, it is that people assume that because we don't know/understand everything (the gaps), then we attribute those things to God.

Yes. When some natural phenomena was not understood, people often immediately pointed to god and said it's proof.

In fact, as we understand more and more, it just makes God even more amazing.

I would say the more we learn about the natural world, the more amazing the natural world becomes.

 

[tansy]

I agree with you there. And theres probably not enough time to get to know every detail of every religion enough to know if its true either. One would have to trust their heart on which one to look up and research further to see if they find it compelling. I guess if I made the jump from being an unbeliever to suddenly thinking God may or does exist I would then do a quick survey of the religions and read the basic tenets of it and go from there. Asking the god that I discovered to lead me to what is correct.

..

I agree with you. When I started seriously looking to see whether or not there was a God, I started looking at various things, but realised that there was no way in a lifetime, that I could work through every single religion, philosophy, whether it be Hindu, Islam, Christianity, even witchcraft, or whatever, and find out which if any were true, let alone experiencing or living in those ways. Or even whether or not aliens had seeded the earth etc.
So in the end, I simply said to God, if you exist, please show me the what is right, true etc. (I can't remember my exact words after so many years), and I believed that if God existed and he was good, then he would show me. And as far as I'm concerned, He did.

 

[tansy]

Yes. When some natural phenomena was not understood, people often immediately pointed to god and said it's proof.



I would say the more we learn about the natural world, the more amazing the natural world becomes.

Well maybe they did and perhaps still do. But I for one, don't look at it that way. And of course, when I look at the natural world and thinking about quarks and chaos theory and whatnot (not things I really at all understand, am not a scientist, but find these things fascinating), as I say, I think how awesome God is to create all this stuff.

 

[awitch]

Well maybe they did and perhaps still do. But I for one, don't look at it that way. And of course, when I look at the natural world and thinking about quarks and chaos theory and whatnot (not things I really at all understand, am not a scientist, but find these things fascinating), as I say, I think how awesome God is to create all this stuff.

That's what I'm talking about. There's something that's really complicated and hard to understand but you don't even have to try if you point to god.

 

[tansy]

That's what I'm talking about. There's something that's really complicated and hard to understand but you don't even have to try if you point to god.

Except that I've always loved trying to understand. If anything, my belief in God, makes me want to understand even more. I only wish I'd been good enough at science and maths to have pursued it properly, but I was much better at things like art, music and languages. I love the way everything kind of fits and works together. It just seems so neat, to use an American expression. The thing is, I can kind of get interested in things I'm not really interested in in themselves. Golf, for example, bores me to tears, but if someone were to start explaining to me the various reasons for various types of golf clubs and I could ask them lots of questions and perhaps why one material is better than another for hitting the ball...well even that could go right into the different atoms etc which make up the materials of the clubs.

 

[Wolfe]

Frankly, I find the "they were never Christians to begin with" really insulting. Some people who are Christians who start questioning earnestly search but the more they look the harder they find it is to believe.

I think a better way to put it would be, you were never saved.

You can call yourself whatever you want, doesn't mean you are what you say you are.
For example: if you say you're Christian, then go murder someone in cold blood, you're not a Christian.

If you're saved, you will know it for a fact, questioning, and doubting, are two different things.
IF you question your salvation, and search for answers to if you are actually saved, that's fine I think everybody does that at some point.
But if you're doubting that salvation exist, you were never saved. Not to say that you can't be, just to say that you aren't (or weren't) currently.

 

[Wolfe]

I've heard of a few who were once devout Christians and you know what caused them to start doubting, and me as well? Reading more of the Bible than just what we're told in Mass and Sunday school. Isn't that the place that you would first expect a Christian to search? Don't you understand there are people who honestly search with all their heart but end up falling away from God and sometimes the Bible is the catalyst?

No, the misunderstanding of the Bible is the downfall of many Christians who take that as the spark of their doubt.

Gods justification and morality.
Why he does the things he does, in the way that he does.
Why he doesn't do some things.

It's all in there, just gotta read it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Maybe its possible to have some belief in God but without the undeniable experience you can't know God exists. You can believe he does but there will always be doubt like I had before my experiences with God began. Before I could speak in tongues I met a man who said he had no doubt and I didn't know how one could have no doubt till I began to speak in tongues and it changed me and made me see god in a new light in an undeniable way. There is no way I could be convinced otherwise that God doesn't exist from this point on.

Romans 1 says that you can know God exists, not that you will put your faith in God.

 

[Arthra]

I just don't think you can know God exists without some external physical proof. It doesn't have to be tongues and some experiences could prove God to people more than tongues as well. But without some kind of proof theres no way to get to that level of knowing God exists. God however proves himself to us in many ways.

For me it had to do with my perspective.. I was committed to the civil rights movement and the peace movement in the early sixties and found that the Baha'i Writings substantially supported peace and race unity. Also I made a study of a variety of religions and found they had a common thread which was clearly supported in the Writings.

 

[Zoness]

In my opinion, believing in a divine force in the universe is not particularly problematic; the leap starts at assuming that whatever that force is has all of the properties and opinions the gods of a specific religion.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

In my opinion, believing in a divine force in the universe is not particularly problematic; the leap starts at assuming that whatever that force is has all of the properties and opinions the gods of a specific religion.

Why is it so difficult to believe the one true God has revealed himself in a religion? Surely if there is one true God he would want his people to know him. A religion would be a way for him to reveal himself.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Surely if there is one true God he would want his people to know him.

How could you possibly know that? Sounds very anthropomorphic, as if God had the same psychological makeup as humans.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

How could you possibly know that? Sounds very anthropomorphic, as if God had the same psychological makeup as humans.

Whats the alternative to assume he wants to be hidden? and not known by anyone? Doesnt make much sense to assume that. If we assume theres a God we would assume he is the creator and then we would have to ask our self why did he create us if he did not want us to know him.

 

[Cearbhall]

I will also say that those who say they are Christians then leave the faith were never Christians to begin with. For it says
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

That's an interesting opinion. Thankfully, you aren't in charge of identities for anyone but yourself. I was a Christian for the first 15 years of my life.

 

[awitch]

Why is it so difficult to believe the one true God has revealed himself in a religion?

Because a one time revelation, through supposedly some extremely extraordinary means that fly in the face of reality, isn't very convincing to people 2000 years later. Then there's the problem of not revealing himself to the hundreds of millions of people before.

Surely if there is one true God he would want his people to know him.

Which is why relying on people and scripture is really bad planning, especially when neither of which can be authenticated.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Because a one time revelation, through supposedly some extremely extraordinary means that fly in the face of reality, isn't very convincing to people 2000 years later. Then there's the problem of not revealing himself to the hundreds of millions of people before.



Which is why relying on people and scripture is really bad planning, especially when neither of which can be authenticated.

What then would be the acceptable solution, since it's been claimed that even if a person returned from the dead, it wouldn't be believed.