The only way to know God exists is by him proving it to you

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I would say there are varying levels of faith among the christian community. I will also say that those who say they are Christians then leave the faith were never Christians to begin with. For it says
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

I believed god existed since I was little however I did not get to the level of knowing until the past 2 years when I had many spiritual experiences and things occurring that the only explanation could be God. I began to have the outward manifestation of the holy spirit and began speaking in tongues.

I do want to address the question of what about those who do speak in tongues but lose their faith. Are these people saved? Its a difficult question because on one hand they display the outward manifestation of the spirit yet claim to not believe in God or Jesus Christ anymore. What else can we say of these people than they are indeed saved because they have the deposit of the holy spirit inside them and that it is locked in forever. For if the gift of tongues does not go away neither does the holy spirit.

I just don't think you can know God exists without some external physical proof. It doesn't have to be tongues and some experiences could prove God to people more than tongues as well. But without some kind of proof theres no way to get to that level of knowing God exists. God however proves himself to us in many ways.

Unbelievers will say well the burden of proof lies on you and then act like thats some kind of unbeatable statement. The fact is its not on us as christians to prove to unbelievers God exists. Its on the unbeliever to seek God and have him prove himself to them. Not many unbelievers do this though. But its the only way to know without a doubt that God exists is by him proving himself to you in some way. These are of course subjective experiences that can't be proven to others but the meaning behind them is great.

Once you break down that barrier of atheism to believing in God then it comes to the point of which God is the most probable. And I ask myself all the time if I were not born into a christian family would I be a christian. I think the answer is yes because I have a heart for the one true God. But lets say I started out on a blank slate with no religion I believe my search will have led me to christianity mainly because even though I was raised as a christian I didn't have to accept it like so many former christians reject it today.

It just so happened I was born into a situation where the gospel was available. Where as if I was born into an atheist home the gospel wouldn't be available until I went on a truth hunt and with skeptical eyes read the word then make a decision based on what I believe to be true. But I'm not a christian because I was born into it, I am a christian because in my heart of hearts I find it to be true and frankly undeniable. I don't think if I were born into an atheist home I would remain an atheist because atheism is not compelling to me.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Frankly, I find the "they were never Christians to begin with" really insulting. Some people who are Christians who start questioning earnestly search but the more they look the harder they find it is to believe.

 

[cloudyday2]

I just don't think you can know God exists without some external physical proof. It doesn't have to be tongues and some experiences could prove God to people more than tongues as well. But without some kind of proof theres no way to get to that level of knowing God exists.

I agree with you about the importance of some sort of experience such as speaking in tongues. I disagree with most of the rest of your OP, but those areas of disagreement are side issues. Your main point is correct IMO.

 

[awitch]

Unbelievers will say well the burden of proof lies on you and then act like thats some kind of unbeatable statement. The fact is its not on us as christians to prove to unbelievers God exists.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the positive assertion. If you pose that god exists, it's up to you to provide the evidence.

While I agree a spiritual experience is probably the most convincing reason of belief, such experiences are super prone to misperception and ignorance of natural phenomena. And then you still have to account for the varied experiences that people have.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Frankly, I find the "they were never Christians to begin with" really insulting. Some people who are Christians who start questioning earnestly search but the more they look the harder they find it is to believe.

The No True Scotsman fallacy. Rigs the game right from the start.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I just don't think you can know God exists without some external physical proof. It doesn't have to be tongues and some experiences could prove God to people more than tongues as well. But without some kind of proof theres no way to get to that level of knowing God exists. God however proves himself to us in many ways.

Unbelievers will say well the burden of proof lies on you and then act like thats some kind of unbeatable statement. The fact is its not on us as christians to prove to unbelievers God exists. Its on the unbeliever to seek God and have him prove himself to them. Not many unbelievers do this though. But its the only way to know without a doubt that God exists is by him proving himself to you in some way. These are of course subjective experiences that can't be proven to others but the meaning behind them is great.

Once you break down that barrier of atheism to believing in God then it comes to the point of which God is the most probable. And I ask myself all the time if I were not born into a christian family would I be a christian. I think the answer is yes because I have a heart for the one true God. But lets say I started out on a blank slate with no religion I believe my search will have led me to christianity mainly because even though I was raised as a christian I didn't have to accept it like so many former christians reject it today.

It just so happened I was born into a situation where the gospel was available. Where as if I was born into an atheist home the gospel wouldn't be available until I went on a truth hunt and with skeptical eyes read the word then make a decision based on what I believe to be true. But I'm not a christian because I was born into it, I am a christian because in my heart of hearts I find it to be true and frankly undeniable. I don't think if I were born into an atheist home I would remain an atheist because atheism is not compelling to me.

Romans 1 says that we can know God exists by use of our own reason and observation. It's not something God has to add some special proof for. The data is already evident. That's why we are responsible for our own unbelief.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Romans 1 says that we can know God exists by use of our own reason and observation. It's not something God has to add some special proof for. The data is already evident. That's why we are responsible for our own unbelief.

Maybe its possible to have some belief in God but without the undeniable experience you can't know God exists. You can believe he does but there will always be doubt like I had before my experiences with God began. Before I could speak in tongues I met a man who said he had no doubt and I didn't know how one could have no doubt till I began to speak in tongues and it changed me and made me see god in a new light in an undeniable way. There is no way I could be convinced otherwise that God doesn't exist from this point on.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Frankly, I find the "they were never Christians to begin with" really insulting. Some people who are Christians who start questioning earnestly search but the more they look the harder they find it is to believe.

Well you shouldn't because its not insulting but the simple truth. Just because you were born into a christian household and say you are a christian doesn't mean you are one. Once you are tested throughout life and seek him and don't find him is the only way to know if you are indeed a christian. I would question those christians who seek and do not find, where are they looking? Are they reading the god delusion to test their belief or did they try to seek him in the right places. It all depends on where one is looking. And I will say prayer is important here but if you are beginning the downward spiral of doubt to unbelief prayer is hard to come by. For prayer without faith is fruitless.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

The burden of proof lies with the one making the positive assertion. If you pose that god exists, it's up to you to provide the evidence.

While I agree a spiritual experience is probably the most convincing reason of belief, such experiences are super prone to misperception and ignorance of natural phenomena. And then you still have to account for the varied experiences that people have.

If these experiences can at least break down the unbelieving barrier then that person is one step closer to finding the one true God.

 

[awitch]

If these experiences can at least break down the unbelieving barrier then that person is one step closer to finding the one true God.

I suppose, but it's a huge leap to go from some ambiguous deity or deities exist to all the specific details of a particular religion.

 

[awitch]

Romans 1 says that we can know God exists by use of our own reason and observation.

That's not very helpful for the people who don't already believe the Bible is an authority, is it?

It's not something God has to add some special proof for. The data is already evident. That's why we are responsible for our own unbelief.

Only the god of the gaps is self evident.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I suppose, but it's a huge leap to go from some ambiguous deity or deities exist to all the specific details of a particular religion.

I agree with you there. And theres probably not enough time to get to know every detail of every religion enough to know if its true either. One would have to trust their heart on which one to look up and research further to see if they find it compelling. I guess if I made the jump from being an unbeliever to suddenly thinking God may or does exist I would then do a quick survey of the religions and read the basic tenets of it and go from there. Asking the god that I discovered to lead me to what is correct.

True faith however is hard to come by. A lot of believers tend to be casual in their belief and lifestyle and it shows in the world we live in. Its why people say oh well if the christian God is true why is it impossible to tell the difference between a christian and an atheist from a works perspective. And I would say it all depends on how much work the christian has put in to obeying God. It would be better to compare an obedient christian to an atheist then the difference between the two would be undeniable. Let me be clear the holy spirit can change people but doesn't intrude, true change happens the only way it can happen, a person must be willing to change their behavior whether they have the holy spirit or not.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

That's not very helpful for the people who don't already believe the Bible is an authority, is it?

Quoting the bible doesn't help people who don't believe it unless they find some truth in what is quoted. So sometimes it can be helpful but usually not. My main thing is to try to understand nonbelievers and why they don't believe. They usually say well theres not enough evidence, and to that I say surely evidence is possible, and they may or not agree but if they do agree then I would say continue the search. It is of my concern that these people who say there is no evidence do so on the basis of the leaders of atheism who are much smarter than they are and the average person and they blindly follow the arguments of these leaders without looking at the alternative possibilities.

 

[awitch]

I agree with you there. And theres probably not enough time to get to know every detail of every religion enough to know if its true either. One would have to trust their heart on which one to look up and research further to see if they find it compelling. I guess if I made the jump from being an unbeliever to suddenly thinking God may or does exist I would then do a quick survey of the religions and read the basic tenets of it and go from there. Asking the god that I discovered to lead me to what is correct.

I think this is a pretty important point; going on what's in your heart. That means not accepting a religion as a package deal where you can pretend away the parts you don't agree with or jump through mental hoops when that religion makes declarations that clearly do not align with the real world.

So now the important question to ask is, "Is this sufficient?" for what would be the true god (assuming one exists). Does god prefer you to be sincere but get things wrong, or does it prefer unwavering, but reluctant belief?

True faith however is hard to come by. A lot of believers tend to be casual in their belief and lifestyle and it shows in the world we live in. Its why people say oh well if the christian God is true why is it impossible to tell the difference between a christian and an atheist from a works perspective. And I would say it all depends on how much work the christian has put in to obeying God.

That's not a fair comparison. A Christian and atheist whose works are about the same must does not imply that the Christian is just not very devout.

 

[awitch]

Quoting the bible doesn't help people who don't believe it unless they find some truth in what is quoted. So sometimes it can be helpful but usually not. My main thing is to try to understand nonbelievers and why they don't believe. They usually say well theres not enough evidence, and to that I say surely evidence is possible, and they may or not agree but if they do agree then I would say continue the search. It is of my concern that these people who say there is no evidence do so on the basis of the leaders of atheism who are much smarter than they are and the average person and they blindly follow the arguments of these leaders without looking at the alternative possibilities.

I suspect the number of people who believe a property about god because clergy said so is vastly greater than the number of people who say there is no evidence because an atheist talking head said so.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Does god prefer you to be sincere but get things wrong, or does it prefer unwavering, but reluctant belief?



That's not a fair comparison. A Christian and atheist whose works are about the same must does not imply that the Christian is just not very devout.

Sincerity is very important to the christian God. What good is saying you are a christian if you aren't sincere in that declaration. Likewise remaining a christian reluctantly is not what god wants. Such a person is better of not claiming to be a believer since in his heart of hearts he believes it not to be true. You can't hide what you truly believe from God. So it is best to be sincere and go from there.


As far as your last point about similar works between atheists and christians. Atheists only bring this point up when talking about the carnal casual christian who follows the ways of this world and not the commands of God. They never bring it up when talking about say a mother theresa or someone who represents the tenets of Christianity well.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I suspect the number of people who believe a property about god because clergy said so is vastly greater than the number of people who say there is no evidence because an atheist talking head said so.

Such numbers arent very helpful when there are more christians than any other belief system in the world. But I say don't believe something because someone told you but find out for yourself.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Well you shouldn't because its not insulting but the simple truth. Just because you were born into a christian household and say you are a christian doesn't mean you are one. Once you are tested throughout life and seek him and don't find him is the only way to know if you are indeed a christian. I would question those christians who seek and do not find, where are they looking? Are they reading the god delusion to test their belief or did they try to seek him in the right places. It all depends on where one is looking. And I will say prayer is important here but if you are beginning the downward spiral of doubt to unbelief prayer is hard to come by. For prayer without faith is fruitless.

I've heard of a few who were once devout Christians and you know what caused them to start doubting, and me as well? Reading more of the Bible than just what we're told in Mass and Sunday school. Isn't that the place that you would first expect a Christian to search? Don't you understand there are people who honestly search with all their heart but end up falling away from God and sometimes the Bible is the catalyst?

 

[awitch]

Sincerity is very important to the christian God. What good is saying you are a christian if you aren't sincere in that declaration. Likewise remaining a christian reluctantly is not what god wants. Such a person is better of not claiming to be a believer since in his heart of hearts he believes it not to be true. You can't hide what you truly believe from God. So it is best to be sincere and go from there.

So how forgiving is god if one is sincere but ultimately finds a [very] non-Christian path while following his heart?

As far as your last point about similar works between atheists and christians. Atheists only bring this point up when talking about the carnal casual christian who follows the ways of this world and not the commands of God. They never bring it up when talking about say a mother theresa or someone who represents the tenets of Christianity well.

Are you sure you want to use Mother Theresa as a real representative?

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I've heard of a few who were once devout Christians and you know what caused them to start doubting, and me as well? Reading more of the Bible than just what we're told in Mass and Sunday school. Isn't that the place that you would first expect a Christian to search? Don't you understand there are people who honestly search with all their heart but end up falling away from God and sometimes the Bible is the catalyst?

Well for one you can't force whats in your heart to just rapidly change. Reading the bible without understanding can lead to all kinds of doubt and unbelief. If the bible makes sense to you then it should increase your faith if it doesn't make sense then find a way to make sense of it. I think the biggest issues is the leaders of our church get consumed with profit over helping others increase their understanding.