Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[stuart lawrence]

No. Paul is recounting his past experience as a Pharisee in the bulk of Romans 7. He is speaking from this perspective within Romans 7:7-Romans 7:24. This is evident by the fact that he says he is sold under sin in Romans 7:14 and yet he says later that he is set free from sin in Romans 8:2.


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On Thi we agree, Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee.

In rom7:7-11 he is using his past experience to explain why he had to die to a law of righteousness.
The example he gave was:

Thou shalt not covet
That is quite plain

 

[Bible Highlighter]

On Thi we agree, Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee.

In rom7:7-11 he is using his past experience to explain why he had to die to a law of righteousness.
The example he gave was:

Thou shalt not covet
That is quite plain

So Paul did not write about his own personal struggle with sin as a Christian then. That is true. We see nothing on that. So Romans 7 does not prove that we are found as sinners in our continued walk with God in Galatians 2:17 or that we must declare that we are sinners according to 1 John 1:8.


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[stuart lawrence]

So Paul did not write about his own personal struggle with sin as a Christian then. That is true. We see nothing on that. So Romans 7 does not prove that we are found as sinners in our continued walk with God in Galatians 2:17 or that we must declare that we are sinners according to 1 John 1:8.


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You state the christian is under a law of righteousness concerning coveting.
Paul gives thou shalt not covet as the example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness.
A few posts ago you wanted to address Thi subject. I obliged you

 

[stuart lawrence]

So Paul did not write about his own personal struggle with sin as a Christian then. That is true. We see nothing on that. So Romans 7 does not prove that we are found as sinners in our continued walk with God in Galatians 2:17 or that we must declare that we are sinners according to 1 John 1:8.


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You are not prepared to yield to the plain text of scripture are you, just argue against it.
How is this in alignment with obeying God?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Now you say the christian is under a law of righteousness concerning coveting. What does Paul say?

In rom 7:4-6 he states the christian dies to the law so they may live for God. He then gave a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law( of righteousness)
The example he gave was:
Thou shalt not covet.

Are you wilfully opposing Paul message, or do you just not understand it?

Paul is talking about the Law of Moses in Romans 7:4-6 and not all law. This is evident by the fact that Paul says,

"...we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

The oldness of the letter is the Law of Moses and it is not the New Testament Scriptures. For the NT Scriptures were still being written during this time period.


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[stuart lawrence]

Paul is talking about the Law of Moses in Romans 7:4-6 and not all law. This is evident by the fact that Paul says,

"...we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

The oldness of the letter is the Law of Moses and it is not the New Testament Scriptures. For the NT Scriptures were still being written during this time period.


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Paul is talking about:

THOU SHALT NOT COVET in rom ch7

He uses Tha commandment to explain why he had to die to a law of righteousness.

Yet you say the christIan is under a law of righteousness concerning coveting.

Why will you not yield to scripture?

Are you wilfully opposing Paul message, or do you just not understand it?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul is talking about the Law of Moses in Romans 7:4-6 and not all law. This is evident by the fact that Paul says,

"...we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

The oldness of the letter is the Law of Moses and it is not the New Testament Scriptures. For the NT Scriptures were still being written during this time period.


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And if Paul is talking of the law of Moses in verses 4-6, why does he follow That up by giving thou shalt not covet as the example of why he had to die to the law?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul is talking about:

THOU SHALT NOT COVET in rom ch7

He uses Tha commandment to explain why he had to die to a law of righteousness.

Yet you say the christIan is under a law of righteousness concerning coveting.

Why will you not yield to scripture?

Are you wilfully opposing Paul message, or do you just not understand it?

When Paul mentions coveting: Paul was using referencing the eternal moral law of love (like do not covet) within the Old Covenant to show that there are laws today that many (who are religious) know that are still good and holy today but yet we struggle to obey them (and yet fail). Paul's solution to that struggle is Jesus Christ. With Jesus you can obey the Law that says, "Do not covet." Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. Jesus said with God all things are possible.

For in Romans 8:4, we are to walk after the Spirit so as to fulfill the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. the eternal Moral Law of love).

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4).

Side Note:

But this still does not mean that Paul was not speaking about the Old Law in Romans 7:7 thru Romans 7:24. Paul was mentioning an eternal moral law of love in the Old Testament that carried on over into the New. Many of them struggled in thinking they had to go back to the Old Law like circumcision (See Romans 3:1).


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[stuart lawrence]

Paul was using referencing the eternal moral law of love (like do not covet) within the Old Covenant to show that there are laws today that many (who are religious) know that are still good and holy today but yet we struggle to obey them (and yet fail). Paul's solution to that struggle is Jesus Christ. With Jesus you can obey the Law that says, "Do not covet." Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. Jesus said with God all things are possible.

For in Romans 8:4, we are to walk after the Spirit so as to fulfill the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. the eternal Moral Law of love).

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4).


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Paul gives thou shalt not covet as the example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness

 

[stuart lawrence]

When Paul mentions coveting: Paul was using referencing the eternal moral law of love (like do not covet) within the Old Covenant to show that there are laws today that many (who are religious) know that are still good and holy today but yet we struggle to obey them (and yet fail). Paul's solution to that struggle is Jesus Christ. With Jesus you can obey the Law that says, "Do not covet." Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. Jesus said with God all things are possible. But this still does not mean that Paul was not speaking about the Old Law in Romans 7:7 thru Romans 7:24.

For in Romans 8:4, we are to walk after the Spirit so as to fulfill the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. the eternal Moral Law of love).

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4).


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Its no good just quoting the letter if you don't understand the message

 

[stuart lawrence]

When Paul mentions coveting: Paul was using referencing the eternal moral law of love (like do not covet) within the Old Covenant to show that there are laws today that many (who are religious) know that are still good and holy today but yet we struggle to obey them (and yet fail). Paul's solution to that struggle is Jesus Christ. With Jesus you can obey the Law that says, "Do not covet." Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. Jesus said with God all things are possible.

For in Romans 8:4, we are to walk after the Spirit so as to fulfill the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. the eternal Moral Law of love).

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4).

Side Note:

But this still does not mean that Paul was not speaking about the Old Law in Romans 7:7 thru Romans 7:24. Paul was mentioning an eternal moral law of love in the Old Testament that carried on over into the New. Many of them struggled in thinking they had to go back to the Old Law like circumcision (See Romans 3:1).


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what law do you think Paul was transgressing I rom7:14-25?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Its no good just quoting the letter if you don't understand the message

Right, so what does Romans 8:4 mean?

How do we fulfill the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit?

Is that not by loving one's neighbor in Romans 13:8-10?
Is that not by the power of Jesus Christ? (John 15:5).

You say we are not under a law of righteousness and yet we fulfill a law of righteousness by walking after the Spirit.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
There are other Laws or Commands mentioned in the New Testament, as well.
Yet, you believe you are not under these Laws?


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[stuart lawrence]

Right, so what does Romans 8:4 mean?

How do we fulfill the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit?

Is that not by loving one's neighbor in Romans 13:8-10?
Is that not by the power of Jesus Christ? (John 15:5).

You say we are not under a law of righteousness and yet we fulfill a law of righteousness by walking after the Spirit.


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There's no point in you moving on to ch8. Ch7 comes first and you oppose what Paul plainly wrote

 

[stuart lawrence]

Right, so what does Romans 8:4 mean?

How do we fulfill the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit?

Is that not by loving one's neighbor in Romans 13:8-10?
Is that not by the power of Jesus Christ? (John 15:5).

You say we are not under a law of righteousness and yet we fulfill a law of righteousness by walking after the Spirit.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
There are other Laws or Commands mentioned in the New Testament, as well.
Yet, you believe you are not under these Laws?


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But i will respond anyway. When you follow after the holy spirit the fruits of the spirit grow in your life.
Against the fruits of the Spirit there is no law( gal&:23)

For those fruits are the embodiment of how God wants you to live. Therefore the righteous requirements of the law are met

Very different from you looking to the letter of the law isn't it

Give me a verse of scripture Tha states the christian is under some kind of a law of righteousness.

I've given you much scripture that states they are not

 

[Bible Highlighter]

what law do you think Paul was transgressing I rom7:14-25?

Speaking from his perspective as a Pharisee in Romans 7:7-24: Paul (Saul) is transgressing the Eternal Moral Command (that still applies today) within the Old Law. As a Pharisee he struggled to obey this Eternal Moral Command (like do not covet) because he did not have Jesus Christ and the Spirit in His life to help him to overcome this sin. We are told to walk after the Spirit so as to fulfill the righteousness of the Law (i.e. the Old Law). The righteousness of the Old Law is the law of love (i.e. to love your neighbor which results in the moral laws like do not murder, steal, covet, etc.).

In short, Paul transgressed an eternal moral law within the Old Covenant Law.
Paul was showing he could not obey God's laws that apply today without Jesus in his life and he was showing that we are to serve God in the newness of Spirit of the New Covenant and not in the Oldness of the Letter (i.e. the Old Covenant Laws or Commands).


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[Bible Highlighter]

But i will respond anyway. When you follow after the holy spirit the fruits of the spirit grow in your life.
Against the fruits of the Spirit there is no law( gal&:23)

For those fruits are the embodiment of how God wants you to live. Therefore the righteous requirements of the law are met

Very different from you looking to the letter of the law isn't it

Give me a verse of scripture Tha states the christian is under some kind of a law of righteousness.

I've given you much scripture that states they are not

And I have given you plenty of verses showing you Christians are under righteous laws before. My repeating them again for you within this thread is not going to help you. Christians are not their own masters. Christians are not lawless individuals. Jesus says to certain believers to depart from Him because they worked lawlessness in Matthew 7.


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[stuart lawrence]

Paul is transgressing the Eternal Moral Command (that still applies today) within the Old Law. He struggled to obey this Eternal Moral Command (like do not covet) because he did not have Jesus Christ and the Spirit in His life to help him to overcome this sin. We are told to walk after the Spirit so as to fulfill the righteousness of the Law (i.e. the Old Law). The righteousness of the Old Law is the law of love in (i.e. to love your neighbor which results in the moral laws like do not murder, steal, covet, etc.).

In short, Paul transgressed an eternal moral law within the Old Covenant Law.
Paul was showing he could not obey God's laws without Jesus in his life and he was showing that we are to serve God in the newness of Spirit of the New Covenant and not in the Oldness of the Letter (i.e. the Old Covenant Laws or Commands).


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Good, Paul was transgressing:
Thou shalt mot covet, the example he gave as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness.
Now you have been shown the truth.
If you continue to state the christian is under a law of righteousness concerning:
Thou shalt not covet
You are in wilfull rebellion against the bible/ Paul's message

 

[stuart lawrence]

And I have given you plenty of verses showing you Christians are under righteous laws before. My repeating them again for you within this thread is not going to help you. Christians are not their own masters. Christians are not lawless individuals. Jesus says to certain believers to depart from Him because they worked lawlessness in Matthew 7.


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You have given me not one verse of scripture that states christians are under a law of righteousness, only faulty summations in an attempt to overturn the plainly written words of the bible.

You need to get out of your law of righteousness.
Seeking to oppose the message of scripture is evidence of that

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good, Paul was transgressing:
Thou shalt mot covet, the example he gave as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness.
Now you have been shown the truth.
If you continue to state the christian is under a law of righteousness concerning:
Thou shalt not covet
You ate in wilfull rebellion against the bible/ Paul's message

Technically it was Saul who transgressed the eternal moral law under the Old Testament while he was a Pharisee before he was born again by Jesus Christ. Paul lets us know in Romans 8:4 that we are to fulfill a righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. like loving your neighbor - which is related to "do not covet") by walking after the Spirit vs. serving in the Oldness of the Letter (i.e. the Old Covenant with many of it's rituals that do not apply anymore). Paul is saying he is thankful to Jesus Christ by the fact that Christ delivers his old self (Saul) in having this struggle to obey the Law. He walks by trusting in Jesus in faith and by walking after the Spirit to fulfill the righteous aspect or part in the Old Law (that still applies today).


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[stuart lawrence]

Technically it was Saul who transgressed the eternal moral law under the Old Testament while he was a Pharisee before he was born again by Jesus Christ. Paul lets us know in Romans 8:4 that we are to fulfill a righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. like loving your neighbor - which is related to "do not covet") by walking after the Spirit vs. serving in the Oldness of the Letter (i.e. the Old Covenant with many of it's rituals that do not apply anymore).


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Of course it was Saul the Pharisee I rom ch7 being spoken of.
Doesn't change the fact Paul the christian used thou shalt not covet as the example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness