Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[stuart lawrence]

I didn't know you wanted a detailed commentary on Matthew 23. I can do so if you like. But our conversations have been one sided. You keep posting verses, and I explain them. I put forth verses and you do not explain them. This in my view makes your position to look weak.


...

I'm simply refuting your law of righteousness. Prove to me from scripture a law of righteousness exists and i will immediately respond.
I can give you many verses to prove it does not. In my view your position appears weak for you have so far produced not one scripture in support of a law of righteousness

 

[stuart lawrence]

You are just making false accusations. Quoting the plain straight forward meaning of God's Word and being able to explain ALL of what it says means a person knows what it says. Anyone can take snippets of Scripture out of context. I have not really gotten any explanation out of the verses I provided for you that refutes OSAS. Your strictly on the offensive based on a few select verses and you are not defending your OSAS viewpoint with clear Scripture (When I come up with verses that challenge that position). The standard generic Ad hominems and claims that, "I am right and you are wrong," is the name of the game.


...

BTW

If you cannot properly explain Gal2:16&17 it would be better for you not to attempt to counsel new christians, for you would not know how to explain the correct path they must set out on to them

 

[Bible Highlighter]

BTW

If you do not fully explain Gal 2:16&17 as requested, you wont write anymore posts to me stating you have explained all the scriptures I have posted will you?

The works of the law mentioned verses 16-18 is talking about the law of Moses and not all law.

16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." (Galatians 2:16-18).

Paul says if he builds against that which he destroyed, he will make himself a transgressor. What is the context? Paul used to be Pharisee and he obeyed the Old Testament Law and the extra laws or traditions of the Pharisees. The topic here is circumcision because Paul says, "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" (Galatians 2:3). In Galatians 5:2, Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. But then Paul lists certain sins that are not acceptable to God in Galatians 5:19-21.

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
(Galatians 5:19-21).

...

 

[stuart lawrence]

But the topic of the thread is OSAS.



Okay, so if you are trying to refute a law of righteousness, then does that mean you are against God's laws? Are you trying to refute the law that says, "Do not murder"? Are you trying to refute the law that says, "Do not commit adultery"? Either you are under God's laws in some way or you are not under them. Otherwise you are supporting lawlessness. But yet, you seemed to boast that you have overcome the sin of touching yourself by a particular teaching in Scripture. Is this not a support of God's laws?

...

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
THEN HE ADDS
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17

The core foundation on which the new covenant stands proves no law of righteousness exists, and also, by that being the case, the christian does not have licence to ignore how God wants them to live.

If you understood the core of the covenant you would not make the statements you do

 

[stuart lawrence]

The works of the law mentioned verses 16-18 is talking about the law of Moses and not all law.

16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

Paul says if he builds against that which he destroyed, he will make himself a transgressor. What is the context? Paul used to be Pharisee and he obeyed the Old Testament Law and the extra laws or traditions of the Pharisees. The topic here is circumcision because Paul says, "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" Galatians 2:3. In Galatians 5:2 Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. But then Paul lists certain sins that are not acceptable to God in Galatians 5:19-21.

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
(Galatians 5:19-21).

...

Hopeless. How can it be evident christians are sinners while they seek to be justified in christ if Paul is speaking of circumcision, or non applicable law for the christian?

 

[stuart lawrence]

The works of the law mentioned verses 16-18 is talking about the law of Moses and not all law.

16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." (Galatians 2:16-18).

Paul says if he builds against that which he destroyed, he will make himself a transgressor. What is the context? Paul used to be Pharisee and he obeyed the Old Testament Law and the extra laws or traditions of the Pharisees. The topic here is circumcision because Paul says, "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" Galatians 2:3. In Galatians 5:2 Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. But then Paul lists certain sins that are not acceptable to God in Galatians 5:19-21.

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
(Galatians 5:19-21).

...

Are you an evident sinner if you fail to obey the levitical law?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you an evident sinner if you fail to obey the levitical law?

The Old Law does not apply anymore. I said this to you before.
Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.


...

 

[SnowyMacie]

Scripture does not talk about salvation like it is a one-time event, but a lifelong process of becoming more like Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hopeless. How can it be evident christians are sinners while they seek to be justified in christ if Paul is speaking of circumcision, or non applicable law for the christian?

Your words here do not make any sense. Paul is referencing the Old Testament law because it is clear he is talking about circumcision (Which is not an applicable law or command under the New Testament). However, Paul is not saying that we can abide in certain sins, though. He lists various sins that will cause one to not inherit the kIngdom of God. This is evident by the verses I have provided for you.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Your words here do not make any sense. Paul is referencing the Old Testament law because it is clear he is talking about circumcision (Which is not an applicable law or command under the New Testament). However, Paul is not saying that we can abide in certain sins, though. He lists various sins that will cause one to not inherit the kIngdom of God. This is evident by the verses I have provided for you.


...

you have once again stated Paul was speaking of OT law/ circumcision I gal2:16&17 and this law is not applicable under the new covenant.

So how can christians be evident sinners while seeking to be justified in Christ if Paul is referring to law not applicable under the new covenant?

It is impossible

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm simply refuting your law of righteousness. Prove to me from scripture a law of righteousness exists and i will immediately respond.
I can give you many verses to prove it does not. In my view your position appears weak for you have so far produced not one scripture in support of a law of righteousness

In this post to another person, I provide a long list of verses that shows we are under God's laws and that sin (breaking God's laws) will have dire consequences to our souls if they are not repented of.

Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS.
(Simply click on the spoiler button within the post to check out the many verses).​

For Jesus says, "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3).


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

In this post to another person, I provide a long list of verses that shows we are under God's laws and that sin (breaking God's laws) will have dire consequences to our souls if they are not repented of.

Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS.
(Simply click on the spoiler button within the post to check out the many verses).​

For Jesus says, "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3).


...

You have not one verse of scripture under the new covenant that states the christian is under a law of righteousness, only faulty exegesis. For if it I not faulty Paul would have to be in error, and of course he is not:

But now APART from law the righteousness of God has been made known...
Rom3:21

 

[Bible Highlighter]

you have once again stated Paul was speaking of OT law/ circumcision I gal2:16&17 and this law is not applicable under the new covenant.

So how can christians be evident sinners while seeking to be justified in Christ if Paul is referring to law not applicable under the new covenant?

It is impossible

Paul says, if ye seek to be justified by the Law (i.e. the Old Law), ye have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This is in context to Galatians 5:2 that says, if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

You cannot fall from God's grace if you are eternally secure and no sin can separate you from God. But Paul here is saying you can fall from God's grace by seeking to be justified by the Law (i.e. the Old Law).


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Old Law does not apply anymore. I said this to you before.
Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.


...

Then if the OT law does not apply anymore you cannot be an evident sinner by transgressing it. Hence Paul was NOT speaking of OT law in Gal2:16&17

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul says, if ye seek to be justified by the Law (i.e. the Old Law), ye have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This is in context to Galatians 5:2 that says, if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

You cannot fall from God's grace if you are eternally secure and no sin can separate you from God. But Paul here is saying you can fall from God's grace by seeking to be justified by the Law (i.e. the Old Law).


...

Paul states:

If while we seek to be justified in Christ( christians) it becomes evident we ourselves are sinners.......

He cannot possibly be referring to OT law here.
You cant be an evident sinner under non applicable law

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
THEN HE ADDS
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17

The core foundation on which the new covenant stands proves no law of righteousness exists, and also, by that being the case, the christian does not have licence to ignore how God wants them to live.

If you understood the core of the covenant you would not make the statements you do

But you have to keep reading.

26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? "
(Hebrews 10:26-29).

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38).

For it is written...

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Romans 11:22).

Who were the first to be cut off?
The Jews (as a nation).
Granted, they will repent or return to the Lord shortly before His return, but the point is that Scripture says we can be cut off, too.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

But you have to keep reading.

26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? "
(Hebrews 10:26-29).

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38).

For it is written...

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Romans 11:22).


...

There's no point in keep reading I you reject the core foundation on which the new covenant stands I there.
If your foundation I wrong your house collapses

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul states:

If while we seek to be justified in Christ( christians) it becomes evident we ourselves are sinners.......

He cannot possibly be referring to OT law here.
You cant be an evident sinner under non applicable law

Paul is talking about Justification or initial acceptance of Christ when we first come to the faith. In other words, we are found sinners when we first came to the faith. Paul here is trying to refute the idea that we need to be circumcised in order to be saved (Which is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There's no point in keep reading I you reject the core foundation on which the new covenant stands I there.
If your foundation I wrong your house collapses

What did Jesus say about collapsing houses?

26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).​

It sure doesn't sound like anything you are saying.
Jesus says, those who hear his sayings and does them not is like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of it.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul is talking about Justification or initial acceptance of Christ when we first come to the faith. In other words, we are found sinners when we first came to the faith. Paul here is trying to refute the idea that we need to be circumcised in order to be saved (Which is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law).


...

Your post us frankly hopeless Jason.

Paul states

IF WHILE WE SEEK to be justified in Christ it becomes evident Tha we ourselves are sinners...
He is NOT solely speaking of the day you get converted, and you CANNOT be an evident sinner under non applicable law.


I would give up I i was you