LDS What is the reward?

[JacksBratt]

If you think about it, neither is Peter or James, or John or any of the simple or common, or uneducated folk that were apostles of Jesus Christ. They who wrote the scriptures would not be accredited enough to even decide if they should be included in the canon. That's kind of interesting.

You think that men who walked, talked, ate, slept, traveled and observed Christ are not accredited to be included in the list of people worthy of recording the word of God? His disciples?

Also, do you believe that the Holy Spirit guided the mind and hand as they wrote these scriptures? Do you not believe that they were inspired?

Sometimes I believe it is the educated and so called learned men, by mans standards, that are the biggest stumbling block to God's work on earth.

 

[Peter1000]

No, the Mormon position is about a false god.

If it is a false god, he is fully supported by the bible.
Now what do we do?

 

[Peter1000]

[QUOTE="JacksBratt, post: 70616337, member: 355371

"Sometimes I believe it is the educated and so called learned men, by mans standards, that are the biggest stumbling block to God's work on earth.

I agree with you, yet when you talk about accredited men, and councils that told us what books were to be included in the bible, and are doing the translations and the different versions of the bible, we are talking about the educated and learned men of the world. That is exactly my point.

I believe these 'learned men' who you are talking about are responsible for why there are so many Christian churches in the world and for the confusing differences in the beliefs and doctrines of the Christian world.[/QUOTE]

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I agree with you, yet when you talk about accredited men, and councils that told us what books were to be included in the bible, and are doing the translations and the different versions of the bible, we are talking about the educated and learned men of the world. That is exactly my point.

I believe these 'learned men' who you are talking about are responsible for why there are so many Christian churches in the world and for the confusing differences in the beliefs and doctrines of the Christian world.

No, we are talking about the educated and learned men of the CHURCH. Just as the Disciples/Apostles were not educated and learned men by the world's standards but WERE educated and learned men by religious standards because they lived with Christ during His ministry. We're not talking about Harvard and Oxford professors, we're talking about men who served as Church Fathers and leaders.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

If it is a false god, he is fully supported by the bible.
Now what do we do?

The mormon god is not fully supported by the Bible. The Bible says that the One True God did His redemptive work on the Cross and that the Cross is the power of God to those of us who are Christians. The mormon god is one of many, many gods and was once a sinful man who "became" a god and none of that is supported by the Bible - in fact, the Bible says none of that can be true at all.

 

[Peter1000]

The mormon god is not fully supported by the Bible. The Bible says that the One True God did His redemptive work on the Cross and that the Cross is the power of God to those of us who are Christians. The mormon god is one of many, many gods and was once a sinful man who "became" a god and none of that is supported by the Bible - in fact, the Bible says none of that can be true at all.

Where did you ever hear from Mormons that God was once a sinful man?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Where did you ever hear from Mormons that God was once a sinful man?

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us. Here, then, is eternal life--to know that only wise and true God, and you have got to learn how to become Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you. .. God himself, the father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ."
- The Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345, also quoted heavily by the church, see Gospel Principles, Chapter 47.

"The idea that the Lord our God is not a personage of tabernacle is entirely a mistaken notion. He was once a man. Brother Kimball quoted a saying of Joseph the Prophet, that he would not worship a God who had not a Father; and I do not know that he would if be had not a mother; the one would be as absurd as the other. If he had a Father, he was made in his likeness. And if he is our Father we are made after his image and likeness. He once possessed a body, as we now do; and our bodies are as much to us, as his body to him. Every iota of this organization is necessary to secure for us an exaltation with the Gods."
- Prophet Brigham Young, True Character of God, Salt Lake Tabernacle, February 23, 1862, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p.286



"What, is it possible that the Father of Heights, the Father of our spirits, could reduce himself and come forth like a man? Yes, he was once a man like you and I are and was once on an earth like this, passed through the ordeal you and I pass through. He had his father and his mother and he has been exalted through his faithfulness, and he is become Lord of all. He is the God pertaining to this earth. He is our Father. He begot our spirits in the spirit world. They have come forth and our earthly parents have organized tabernacles for our spirits and here we are today. That is the way we came.
- Prophet Brigham Young, 14 July 1861, Recorded in "The Essential Brigham Young", p.138
"On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62); and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grandand incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become!
- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, October 1994

"Many religions teach that human beings are children of God, but often their conception of Him precludes any kind of bond resembling a parent-child relationship. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught of a much simpler and more sensible relationship: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit … was to make himself visible … , you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.”"
- “Strengthening the Family: Created in the Image of God, Male and Female,” Ensign, Jan. 2005, 48

"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this church."
- Official LDS Lesson Manual, 1997, page 34, "The Teachings of Brigham Young"

"God the Father and His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, are glorified, exalted, resurrected, beings, and from the moment of the appearance of the Father and the Son to Joseph Smith, we have known their true nature."
- Offical LDS publication, Ensign, June 1998, Apostle Russell Ballard, "Building Bridges of Understanding"

"That exalted position was made manifest to me at a very early day. I had a direct revelation of this. It was most perfect and complete. If there ever was a thing revealed to man perfectly, clearly, so that there could be no doubt or dubiety, this was revealed to me, and it came in these words: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be." This may appear to some minds as something very strange and remarkable, but it is in perfect harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ and with His promises."
- Prophet Lorenzo R. Snow, Unchangeable Love of God, Sunday, September 18, 1898.



"We all know that like begets like and that for the offspring to grow to the stature of his parent is a process infinitely repeated in nature. We can therefore understand that for a son of God to grow to the likeness of his Father in heaven is in harmony with natural law. We see this law demonstrated every few years in our own experience. Sons born to mortal fathers grow up to be like their fathers in the flesh. This is the way it will be with spirit sons of God. They will grow up to be like their Father in heaven. Joseph taught this obvious truth. As a matter of fact, he taught that through this process God himself attained perfection. From President Snow's understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." This teaching is peculiar to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ."
- Elder Marion G. Romney, General Conference, October 1964

There are some mormons who tell me it.

As a Christian, I deny that God ever "was once as we are now".

The question is, can YOU, as a mormon, deny it also? (I don't think you can but maybe you can prove me wrong by denying it.)

 

[Peter1000]

No, we are talking about the educated and learned men of the CHURCH. Just as the Disciples/Apostles were not educated and learned men by the world's standards but WERE educated and learned men by religious standards because they lived with Christ during His ministry. We're not talking about Harvard and Oxford professors, we're talking about men who served as Church Fathers and leaders.

How did we get to such a confused state as we are today?

It is because of these 'learned' men of the church that added 'learned' worldly Greek and Roman concepts and came up with hundreds of different concepts that are confusing Christianity, even today.

We are not talking Harvard and Oxford professors, we are talking Alexandrian, Greek, and Roman philosophical schools teaching pagan concepts that crept into Christianity in 2nd and 3rd centuries. You know the history.

 

[JacksBratt]

I agree with you, yet when you talk about accredited men, and councils that told us what books were to be included in the bible, and are doing the translations and the different versions of the bible, we are talking about the educated and learned men of the world. That is exactly my point.

I believe these 'learned men' who you are talking about are responsible for why there are so many Christian churches in the world and for the confusing differences in the beliefs and doctrines of the Christian world.

On this point, I cannot agree more with ArmenianJohn and what he said in post #285.

The apostles, although not educated by our standards, were well prepared to write the scriptures.

The men who sat on the various councils that have translated and verified the original scriptures were well versed and accredited with the knowledge necessary to confirm that the Holy Bible that we have to day is rightfully canonized.

Paul was chosen by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and appointed by Christ to be an apostle to the gentiles and his work is rightfully included in the canon.

Since then, nobody has been or will be able to claim the honor of being justified in adding to the living word of God. No new words put to pen and ink or produced by any form will be able to be claimed as additions to or corrections of this God breathed, Holy spirit inspired, living word of God.

 

[JacksBratt]

How did we get to such a confused state as we are today?

By not taking the living word of God as such. By believing in other men with absolutely no right to change what is written in the scriptures. By not being careful and watching out for the deceptions of the enemy.

If you want to, today, you can go and find the original scripture, in the original languages and with the aid of computer, find all the translations of every word and decide for yourself if what was translated means what was originally stated.

It is because of these 'learned' men of the church that added 'learned' worldly Greek and Roman concepts and came up with hundreds of different concepts that are confusing Christianity, even today.

We are not talking Harvard and Oxford professors, we are talking Alexandrian, Greek, and Roman philosophical schools teaching pagan concepts that crept into Christianity in 2nd and 3rd centuries. You know the history.

We don't have to be confused. The basic concepts of the Bible are not complicated. In the Old Testament, Christ is concealed, In the New He is revealed.

We all have to come to Christ as children, we need to be fed the milk of the scriptures and grow on that before taking a bite of the meat and chewing on it without the teeth to break it down.

As soon as something starts to stray from these basic biblical concepts..... something is wrong.

One thing we don't need is some ordinary man trying to write new words and claiming that they are from an extraordinary God.

 

[toLiJC]

When John states that "anything made that was made", he is basically trying to say everything except God. Which includes Jesus, God the Father and The Holy spirit.
John is trying to emphasize that everything means every single thing.

You do know that Jesus had already created the angels and that the fall of Lucifer had already taken place, at the time of Genesis 1, don't you?

where do you know from and how can you be sure what/which things are created and what/which things are not created as well as what/which things St John meant when he said/wrote "any thing made that was made"?!, if a man has to create something such as machine, building, or other suchlike things, then he usually has to use some matter, materials, substances or components, but if we talk about God creating things, then many worshipers (are inclined to) claim that God created everything from the absolute nothing?!?!?!, moreover, many of them were so convinced of this when they claimed it that the people around them seemingly believed them unreservedly?!, so how is it possible that there be anything from the absolute nothing?!, how are you so sure that God didn't used any substance at all when He created the first thing(s) He created?! - what is the guarantee that it is really so?!, because i already mentioned to you that there are things about which it is not written in the Bible (including in the book "Genesis") that they were created, for example the so-called "deep", "darkness" and "waters" in Genesis 1:2 - it is written there that after God created the first things He created, namely the "heaven" and the "earth", there was (already) some so-called "darkness" "upon the (so-called) face of the deep", as well as so-called "waters" "upon the face of which the Spirit of God moved", but it is not written that He created these things - how can/do you explain this without speculating?!

as for what you say about creation and fall of angels and "lucifer", yes, i also believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ created the Holy Angles in the "Heaven", but i also know from Them that the biblical scriptures have a special, spiritual terminology, and words such as "lucifer" have a very special, spiritual meaning(s), for example, according to what i heard from God and Jesus as well as from Their Saints, "lucifer" is the soul in general from the perspective of going through many eternities and changes, every soul was a cherub sometime in a past eternity (the cherubim are the highest and most glorious Holy Beings in the "Heaven" after God the Father and Jesus Christ), but many subsequently fell from that highest position in the "Heaven" becoming sinners in the end of their fall during the course of the eternal circle, and God spoke to the (so-called) "prince of tyre" that he was also a cherub in a previous eternity, but has fallen and is now a great sinner, in order to warn him to repent of his great spiritual lawlessness he did then in his time (Ezekiel 28)

but i don't know that there be such a Holy Angel in the "Heaven" that fell and became a devil in the beginning, what i know from the true Lord God and His Saints is that there is not such a Holy Angel that fell and became a devil within one single eternity, because there must be many consecutive eternities for such an Angel to become a sinner - one single eternity is not enough for this, for the souls of the Heavenly Holy Angels stop being born as Holy Angels in the "Heaven" at a certain point of the eternal circle, and begin to be born as humans in this world from that moment on, and then they become sinners in the end of their (as it were) eternal fall, because the Heavenly Holy Angels never sin, but there is something else in their case, namely some kind of omission on their part to save one human or another, but not due to their fault, or as it is written:

2 Peter 2:9-13 (NASB) "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong."

according as i am taught by the true Lord God, i can say that satan himself(we should rather say 'itself') is not a fallen Angel, but a manifestation of the "darkness" itself, he is not a (be)souled being, but an unsouled spirit, albeit very crafty, as for the (be)souled angels of satan, all of them were humans born in this world who became angels of satan usually after practicing yoga(transcendental) meditation for many years

Is God not capable of anything? There is nothing God cannot do. One thing God can do is create eternal beings that have a beginning but have no end.

has the true God been able enough to save and has He saved all souls of the universe completely and permanently (without exceptions) for the last 5-6 millennia i.e. since the day of the Fall(original sin), given that there have been so many people in this world that suffered from many different afflictions for all these centuries/millenniums?!, and don't tell me He was completely able, because i cannot believe that He was completely able to do it but didn't do it quite deliberately/intentionally - i can't believe He is unrighteous, because He created the man and the woman from scratch making them righteous, and if His will was that the humans be righteous, not unrighteous, and He was able enough to make them be righteous again, then why hasn't He (re)made them be righteous for all these centuries/millennia?!, so i am not trying to say that He is not omnipotent to provide all souls of the universe at any time with abundant and everlasting life in Heaven/Paradise at least within this eternity, but don't you at least assume that He might be somehow frustrated (by something)?!, for example it is written He went into a state of rest on the seventh day, which indicates that for some reason He could not afford not to rest, because if He was able not to rest, then why did He rest?!, but may not it turn out that He went actually into a state of incomplete wakefulness against His will since the seventh day?!, because the Lord, Jesus Christ, warns the worshipers in Matthew 24:20 that they must pray that they not have to flee or attempt to escape on a sabbath day i.e. let's say at a contingent time when God the Father may be in a deeper state of incomplete wakefulness for them, or, to put it another way, why hasn't God saved all souls of the universe since the beginning that is mentioned in Genesis 1:1, if He was fully able to do it then?!, or why have there been so many souls in this world under sin for these 5-6 millenniums i.e. since the beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1, if God could provide them with abundant and everlasting life for all the time's infinity?!, because pay attention to the fact that there has been at least one point of the time's infinity, namely the last 5-6 millennia, at which so many souls have suffered in this world

What rule book are you using to claim such a thing anyway? Where are these rules written, formed, controlled and monitored?

The only one being that could have power over such "laws", if they even did exist, is God.

i could say there are at least rules of sanity - are we sane or not, to be sane or not to be sane?!

Do you make this stuff up as you go? Your "IF / Then" statements have no basis for validity.

no human being is obliged to explain all the truth with all details to another, either a person believes to the extent of understanding the truth of God or they don't have such a chance

Blessings

 

[JacksBratt]

where do you know from and how can you be sure what/which things are created and what/which things are not created as well as what/which things St John meant when he said/wrote "any thing made that was made"?!, if a man has to create something such as machine, building, or other suchlike things, then he usually has to use some matter, materials, substances or components, but if we talk about God creating things, then many worshipers (are inclined to) claim that God created everything from the absolute nothing?!?!?!, moreover, many of them were so convinced of this when they claimed it that the people around them seemingly believed them unreservedly?!, so how is it possible that there be anything from the absolute nothing?!, how are you so sure that God didn't used any substance at all when He created the first thing(s) He created?! - what is the guarantee that it is really so?!, because i already mentioned to you that there are things about which it is not written in the Bible (including in the book "Genesis") that they were created, for example the so-called "deep", "darkness" and "waters" in Genesis 1:2 - it is written there that after God created the first things He created, namely the "heaven" and the "earth", there was (already) some so-called "darkness" "upon the (so-called) face of the deep", as well as so-called "waters" "upon the face of which the Spirit of God moved", but it is not written that He created these things - how can/do you explain this without speculating?!

as for what you say about creation and fall of angels and "lucifer", yes, i also believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ created the Holy Angles in the "Heaven", but i also know from Them that the biblical scriptures have a special, spiritual terminology, and words such as "lucifer" have a very special, spiritual meaning(s), for example, according to what i heard from God and Jesus as well as from Their Saints, "lucifer" is the soul in general from the perspective of going through many eternities and changes, every soul was a cherub sometime in a past eternity (the cherubim are the highest and most glorious Holy Beings in the "Heaven" after God the Father and Jesus Christ), but many subsequently fell from that highest position in the "Heaven" becoming sinners in the end of their fall during the course of the eternal circle, and God spoke to the (so-called) "prince of tyre" that he was also a cherub in a previous eternity, but has fallen and is now a great sinner, in order to warn him to repent of his great spiritual lawlessness he did then in his time (Ezekiel 28)

but i don't know that there be such a Holy Angel in the "Heaven" that fell and became a devil in the beginning, what i know from the true Lord God and His Saints is that there is not such a Holy Angel that fell and became a devil within one single eternity, because there must be many consecutive eternities for such an Angel to become a sinner - one single eternity is not enough for this, for the souls of the Heavenly Holy Angels stop being born as Holy Angels in the "Heaven" at a certain point of the eternal circle, and began to be born as humans in this world from that moment on, and then they became sinners in the end of their (as it were) eternal fall, because the Heavenly Holy Angels never sin, but there is something else in their case, namely some kind of omission on their part to save one human or another, but not due to their fault, or as it is written:

2 Peter 2:9-13 (NASB) "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong."

according as i am taught by the true Lord God, i can say that satan himself(we should rather say 'itself') is not a fallen Angel, but a manifestation of the "darkness" itself, he is not a (be)souled being, but an unsouled spirit, albeit very crafty, as for the (be)souled angels of satan, all of them were humans born in this world who became angels of satan usually after practicing yoga(transcendental) meditation for many years



has the true God been able enough to save and has He saved all souls of the universe completely and permanently (without exceptions) for the last 5-6 millennia i.e. since the day of the Fall(original sin), given that there have been so many people in this world that suffered from many different afflictions for all these centuries/millenniums?!, and don't tell me He was completely able, because i cannot believe that He was completely able to do it but didn't do it quite deliberately/intentionally - i can't believe He is unrighteous, because He created the man and the woman from scratch making them righteous, and if His will was that the humans be righteous, not unrighteous, and He was able enough to make them be righteous again, then why hasn't He (re)made them be righteous for all these centuries/millennia?!, so i am not trying to say that He is not omnipotent to provide all souls of the universe at any time with abundant and everlasting life in Heaven/Paradise at least within this eternity, but don't you at least assume that He might be somehow prevented (by something)?!, for example it is written He went into a state of rest on the seventh day, which indicates that for some reason He could not afford not to rest, because if He was able not to rest, then why did He rest?!, but may not it turn out that He went actually into a state of incomplete wakefulness against His will since the seventh day?!, because the Lord, Jesus Christ, warns the worshipers in Matthew 24:20 that they must pray that they not have to flee or attempt to escape on a sabbath day i.e. let's say at a contingent time when God the Father is in a deeper state of incomplete wakefulness for them, or, to put it another way, why hasn't God saved all souls of the universe since the beginning that is mentioned in Genesis 1:1, if He was fully able to do it then?!, or why have there been so many souls in this world under sin for these 5-6 millenniums i.e. since the beginning mentioned in Genesis 1:1, if God could provide them with abundant and everlasting life for all the time's infinity?!, because pay attention to the fact that there has been at least one point of the time's infinity, namely the last 5-6 millennia, at which so many souls have suffered in this world



i could say there are at least rules of sanity - are we sane or not, to be sane or not to be sane?!



no human being is obliged to explain all the truth with all details to another, either a person believes to the extent of understanding the truth of God or they don't have such a chance

Blessings

Thanks for your Blessings. God Bless you too. You and I are at distant opposite ends of a very very long rope. If it is even the same rope.

I hope that CF can satisfy whatever reason it is you have came here.

God Bless.

 

[Rescued One]

If it is a false god, he is fully supported by the bible.
Now what do we do?

I continue to serve the Triune God, you follow your will or by God's mercy follow Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

The Gospel of Mark is unfinished, it literally has three different endings. You can read about it here;

Ending of Mark

I love the fact that Mark 16:16 is in there;

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Drives the grace only people crazy.

It doesn't drive me crazy! Who will be damned? He that believeth not!

John 3
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Jane_Doe]

You think that men who walked, talked, ate, slept, traveled and observed Christ are not accredited to be included in the list of people worthy of recording the word of God? His disciples?

Also, do you believe that the Holy Spirit guided the mind and hand as they wrote these scriptures? Do you not believe that they were inspired?

Sometimes I believe it is the educated and so called learned men, by mans standards, that are the biggest stumbling block to God's work on earth.

I 100% agree that it is Christ who qualifies the men He selects, not any Earthly education. I 100% agree that only the men He selects are qualified to lead the church (as His servants) and be His spokesman. I also agree 100% that the Holy Spirit guides revelation and scripture- the writing and interpretation and learning from them. I also 100% agree that educated and so called learned men (by man's standards) are the biggest stumbling to God's work on earth.

The apostles, although not educated by our standards, were well prepared to write the scriptures..

Agreed: they were prepared by God to be His spokespersons.

Paul was chosen by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and appointed by Christ to be an apostle to the gentiles and his work is rightfully included in the canon.

Agreed.

The men who sat on the various councils that have translated and verified the original scriptures were well versed and accredited with the knowledge necessary to confirm that the Holy Bible that we have to day is rightfully canonized.

This is is where we disagree.

The scriptural pattern for people who lead the church is that person is called of God and learns from the God directly. Previous writings and teachings are used, but without also the Holy Spirit guiding/inspiring that person directly, that individual (and their understanding) is doomed. For a leader of the church, this guidance and selection by God is critical.

A pupil in the Gospel will never become the Master. An pupil in the Gospel will always be a sinner, always fall short in understanding, and be imperfect. If a person is educated in the Gospel solely by a pupil and without the Master, then they will receive flawed lessons from a sinner. Their pupil in turn will receive even more flawed lessons from a greater sinner. And so on and so forth, until the school is curropted. This is what happens enviably whenever the living Master's voice is not heard (either directly or much more commonly through a selected spokesman).

I belive God is alive and continues as He always has. He selects spokesmen today, that He speaks, and we can approach Him directly today.

 

[Rescued One]

Where did you ever hear from Mormons that God was once a sinful man?

Endowments:
"In general terms, an endowment is a gift. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or Mormon Church), however, frequently use the word in connection with their temples, which they consider to be literal Houses of the Lord. In this context an Endowment is a course of teaching, ordinances (sacred rituals), and covenants (mutual promises between the individual and God) received in a Mormon temple by worthy and prepared adult members."
Article on the Mormon Temple Endowment

President Wilford Woodruff explained: “[God] has had his endowments a great many years ago. He has ascended to his thrones, principalities and powers in the eternities. We are his children.....We are here to fill a probation and receive an education” (Deseret News Weekly, 28 Sept. 1881, p. 546).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 152-153

“. . . We must go through the same ordeal in order to attain to the glory and exaltation which God designed we should enjoy with Him in the eternal worlds. In other words, we must become like Him; peradventure to sit upon thrones, to have dominion, power, and eternal increase. God designed this in the beginning. We are the children of God. . . . We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when He was passing through this, or a similar ordeal.”
Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 64.

We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when He was passing through this, or a similar ordeal” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 64).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 154

 

[withwonderingawe]

These are two separate occasions. Why would Moses ask to see His full glory if he had already say His face?

No it's all in chapter 33

Because he wanted to see the full glory of the Lord. Now I think Stephen saw it but then he died.

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God" Act 7

 

[ArmenianJohn]

This is is where we disagree.

The scriptural pattern for people who lead the church is that person is called of God and learns from the God directly. Previous writings and teachings are used, but without also the Holy Spirit guiding/inspiring that person directly, that individual (and their understanding) is doomed. For a leader of the church, this guidance and selection by God is critical.

A pupil in the Gospel will never become the Master. An pupil in the Gospel will always be a sinner, always fall short in understanding, and be imperfect. If a person is educated in the Gospel solely by a pupil and without the Master, then they will receive flawed lessons from a sinner. Their pupil in turn will receive even more flawed lessons from a greater sinner. And so on and so forth, until the school is curropted. This is what happens enviably whenever the living Master's voice is not heard (either directly or much more commonly through a selected spokesman).

I belive God is alive and continues as He always has. He selects spokesmen today, that He speaks, and we can approach Him directly today.

So then you believe that the Evangelists in the Bible who were taught and guided by the Apostles are not worthy and were not true leaders of the Church? Philip, Stephen, Apollos, Barnabas, Timothy, etc. are all rejected by you and the Mormon religion?

That's the ignorance of the mormon religion. They are so desperate to believe in the "apostasy" lie that Joseph Smith taught that they make up such outlandish dogma that it rejects the men of God in the Bible.

They also ignore out of hand the reality of the Early Church. The Apostles went to other lands, as they were commissioned by Christ, and spread the Gospel. So did their underlings. They all evangelized. Do you think this evangelization brought NOTHING? You think there were no people who came to Christ through these evangelization efforts? Well, that's the lie that Joseph Smith wants you to believe.

My church is just one of many examples. Sts. Thaddeus (Jude) and Bartholomew, two Apostles who were also Christ's disciples, evangelized in Armenia and many Armenians converted. Of those converts, many went back with these evangelists to learn from them. This is why there is an "Armenian Quarter" in Jerusalem (the 4 quarters are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, and Armenian). Since the time of the Apostles, Armenians have been in Jerusalem and learned from the Apostles and those ordained from them. This is why we are the Armenian "Apostolic" Church - our lineage goes directly to the Apostles. I'm sure dzheremi can share the details on the Coptic Church which was founded through the Evangelization of St. Mark the Apostle (you know, who wrote a book in the Bible).

So despite the lies being taught by the mormon religion such that these men of God were actually "learned" by MEN'S standards only and brought in Greek/Egyptian/Sumerian/etc. philosophy, the fact is that these early Church leaders (Church Fathers, Evangelists, Missionaries, Bishops, etc.) learned directly from the Apostles and passed on that education down. The only way to not know or believe this is to willfully choose to believe the lies taught by a huckster and liar like Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was a man who lied to his own wife about taking on other wives, including women married to other men and underage girls. Anything he says should be seen as a lie by default.

 

[toLiJC]

Thanks for your Blessings. God Bless you too. You and I are at distant opposite ends of a very very long rope. If it is even the same rope.

I hope that CF can satisfy whatever reason it is you have came here.

God Bless.

we had just got to questions and answers somehow, i didn't aim for such a discussion here in advance - the Spirit had been provoked into responding

Blessings

 

[Peter1000]

Endowments:
"In general terms, an endowment is a gift. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or Mormon Church), however, frequently use the word in connection with their temples, which they consider to be literal Houses of the Lord. In this context an Endowment is a course of teaching, ordinances (sacred rituals), and covenants (mutual promises between the individual and God) received in a Mormon temple by worthy and prepared adult members."
Article on the Mormon Temple Endowment

President Wilford Woodruff explained: “[God] has had his endowments a great many years ago. He has ascended to his thrones, principalities and powers in the eternities. We are his children.....We are here to fill a probation and receive an education” (Deseret News Weekly, 28 Sept. 1881, p. 546).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 152-153

“. . . We must go through the same ordeal in order to attain to the glory and exaltation which God designed we should enjoy with Him in the eternal worlds. In other words, we must become like Him; peradventure to sit upon thrones, to have dominion, power, and eternal increase. God designed this in the beginning. We are the children of God. . . . We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when He was passing through this, or a similar ordeal.”
Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 64.

We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when He was passing through this, or a similar ordeal” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 64).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 154

So are you denying that Jesus was fully man. That Jesus put his Godly status aside so as to experience the full weight of being a mortal?

Mormons believe that Jesus experienced everything that true manhood could throw at him, so that he could judge righteously those that went through the same ordeal.

Only 1 difference between me and Jesus. Jesus remained sinless thoughout this earthly experience, and that is why he can resurrect us and why he can atone for our sins.

So he was like us in every way except he remained sinless.