LDS What is the reward?

[JacksBratt]

The Bible gives no clear definition of the word soul, you can put together any number of passages to define it anyway you want.

The Mormons define it this way

Gen 2
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The 'breath of life' is an idiom for the spirit.

Isa 42
....he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Mark 12:30
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

The soul means the whole being, the spirit and body combined.

Matthew 12:18
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

To us this is saying God has both a body and a spirit

If this is true, how can our body die and our soul be with Christ?

Funny thing, you state that "Mormons define it this way" yet you quote, only, from the Holy Bible.

 

[JacksBratt]

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Joseph Smith:

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves--to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done--by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power...

The King Follett Sermon
Mormon Literature Sampler: The King Follett Discourse

Thank you Phoebe Ann, for this pointed apostate statement that totally ends any reason to hold what Joseph Smith said or wrote to be that of Biblical or Godly worthiness.

"we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God."

God always was and always was God. Who, in this universe told JS "how God became God"

Pure apostasy.

"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea,"

This quote is not only apostasy but blasphemy.

I could go on but these are more than enough....JS is dead and his book and theology should die with him.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Again, when making claims about things that are not "contradicted" by scripture, it is still your responsibility to prove that they are supported by scripture.

If I say, "boxing is an unbiblical sport because people are hurting each other". It is not contradicted by scripture but since a claim is made by me about a scriptural concept, I MUST support it using scripture.

You're using a duel standard here.
* Many of your claims are foreign to scripture, and you want me to respond to them.
* I have made a scriptural claim (that God is unchanging) including verses you even quoted your yourself. Yet you won't provide scriptural evidence why you believe this unchanging God has changed His ways.
* You also won't provide scriptural evidence why you believe a the popular vote of sinners should be our leader.

The big theological issue here is what the authority here: does an unchanging God stop selecting spokesmen, or are we to follow the popular opinions of sinners?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Funny thing, you state that "Mormons define it this way" yet you quote, only, from the Holy Bible.

That would be because the Bible is scripture and Mormons study/love/quote/honor scripture.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Thank you Phoebe Ann, for this pointed apostate statement that totally ends any reason to hold what Joseph Smith said or wrote to be that of Biblical or Godly worthiness.

Phoebe's claim is incorrect here, something she has been informed of numerous times and yet continues to re-post here. She's quoting something and acting like this belief is official LDS belief or LDS scripture or binding in any way. The truth is that these quotes are none of the above.

If someone wants to refute actual LDS theology, then they should address actual LDS theology. Not unofficial speculative stuff which any LDS member is 100% free to completely disagree with.

 

[Peter1000]

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Joseph Smith:

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves--to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done--by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power...

The King Follett Sermon
Mormon Literature Sampler: The King Follett Discourse

Thanks for the lesson on the King Follett Discourse, I believe it fully.

Would you please explain how it is related to my post that you responded to? Thank you.

 

[withwonderingawe]

If this is true, how can our body die and our soul be with Christ?

Funny thing, you state that "Mormons define it this way" yet you quote, only, from the Holy Bible.

I really do try to use the Bible to explain Mormonism to other Christians since they do not recognize our other scriptures. At times I use our scriptures to make a position more clear.

D&C 88
The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, ... And the spirit and the body are the soul of man. And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

Now compare to where he uses both words spirit and soul.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In this passage the three different parts are separated. In Mormon doctrine there are three parts and this could be Paul’s intent. The eternal intelligence/light/soul is clothed within the spirit and the spirit within the body.

It's hard to understand because the words spirit and soul are so often used interchangeably.

Could you explain what you think a soul is compared to a spirit.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You are kidding...........right?

No, Jesus said he does nothing but what he sees his Father do,

John 5
19 The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

He’s telling us that this whole death and resurrection has happened before. There is a second point, Jesus is the “expressed image” (Heb 1) of the Father. Barclay explain it’s like a stamp and the mark of the stamp. Jesus is not the stamp but the image of it. If that is true the Father must bear the same marks in his hands and feet as Jesus showed his disciples.

 

[Peter1000]

My point is, God has not changed and will not change. The ages change and with them the biblical realities change.

Please explain what you mean when you say that 'biblical realities change'? That is kind of interesting.

People before the time of Christ could not get on their knees and ask for Christ's forgiveness, become born again, receive the Holy Spirit and live a life as we do now since the temple curtain has been rent.

Are these people all in hell then, no chance to go to heaven, which could be 1/2 of all God's human creations?

Does this mean God changed? Of course not. The time for animal sacrifices is no longer necessary. The time for the need of the Holy of Holy's is not necessary.

It was no longer necessary because God said it was no longer necessary. Mind you, God can, if he wishes to, (even though his words are in scripture), say, 'it is now necessary again to do animal sacrifices and to have a holy of holies'. A book is not going to limit God the creater to what He can and cannot do. Show me where God has said in the scriptures that Apostles are no longer necessary. I have proven from the scriptures that they are still necessary.
(See Ephesians 4:11-14)

Also, since we have the word of God, the canon. The completion of the word was when Christ ascended to heaven. This seals and ends the scriptures, the time of apostles, the time of recording the teachings of Christ.

You keep making this statement withouth a shred of scriptural evidence that the canon is sealed and complete and the time of the Apostles is complete. No evidence in the scriptures for these statements. So prove your statement.

No man, or woman, will ever gain the necessary credentials which are necessary in order for a new book to be written that can be held in comparison to the living word of God.

Do you realize you are personally speaking for and in behalf of The Lord God, the Creater of heavens and earth?

Do you realize you are personally putting a limit on what the Lord God, the Creater of heavens and earth may wish to do?

Again, back up your God-limiting statement with a scripture from God, not a statement from you.

 

[JacksBratt]

Please explain what you mean when you say that 'biblical realities change'? That is kind of interesting.

I did. The people who lived and died, before Christ, could not be saved the same way we are.
The people who lived under the Law of the ten commandments after they were given to Mose and the people of Israel, had no known way of the sacrifices of animals as determined by the law given to Moses.
Abraham spoke directly to God and he was told what to do. Yet did not have the ten commandments or the Saving Blood of Christ.
The people of these times do not go to hell. Although they are still sinners, there is a different method, used by God, to determine their eternal home.

This is clear in this passage:

Romans 1:20King James Version (KJV)


20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Throughout the ages, all of man kind has been accountable for what they believed. All mankind can be held without excuse when they face their creator...
Different ages, different methods of being held accountable.

It is ONLY our age, the age of Grace, where we can know the savior. Know who He is, what He did, and accept His sacrifice for us. It is only our age that has direct contact to our creator without an intermediary person, priest, prophet or any other man above other men.

Yes, we can go to an elder or church leader for prayer and guidance. However, it is not necessary.

I need no man to intercede for me when going to my creator, God, Lord and Savior.

Is this not a change???? Yes.

Is this not different from any other age??? Yes.

Does this mean God has changed???? Not at ALL

You keep making this statement withouth a shred of scriptural evidence that the canon is sealed and complete and the time of the Apostles is complete. No evidence in the scriptures for these statements. So prove your statement.

Name one human with the qualifications to be a new apostle.
Name one human with the qualifications to write new scripture.
State any need, on this earth, for new scripture.
Scripture is God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired, words of God to His creation.....

Name or show me one scrap of any written words, since the time of Christ and His story, that even comes close....

Show me one human being that has the credentials to state that what they are saying is new news from God...

You cannot, the responsibility is yours.

 

[JacksBratt]

That would be because the Bible is scripture and Mormons study/love/quote/honor scripture.

I understand that, yet you state "how the Mormons define something" and don't even use the Mormon Bible. This, to me just means that it is one part of the Mormon theology that is in sync with the truth of the Bible. Nothing more.

 

[JacksBratt]

No, Jesus said he does nothing but what he sees his Father do,

John 5
19 The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

He’s telling us that this whole death and resurrection has happened before. There is a second point, Jesus is the “expressed image” (Heb 1) of the Father. Barclay explain it’s like a stamp and the mark of the stamp. Jesus is not the stamp but the image of it. If that is true the Father must bear the same marks in his hands and feet as Jesus showed his disciples.

Sorry, I have to bow out at this point.

This is so twisted and out of context that I don't have the time or the space to work through it.

God Bless, Good day.

 

[withwonderingawe]

The people who lived and died, before Christ, could not be saved the same way we are.
The people who lived under the Law of the covenant, had no known way of the sacrifices of animals as determined by the law given to Moses.

In Heb 11 he talks about all the different faithful men and women of the OT and then he says “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise”

The writer here mentions “the promise’ several times
Heb 8
“6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 9:15
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

So I’m saying even though they lived by faith they did not have the promise of eternal inheritance.

BUT Jesus said

John 5:46
“For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.”

“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”

They knew Jesus was coming, the first covenant was a dead covenant but with it’s sacrifices it pointed to Christ and his final sacrifice.

Now going back to Heb 11 he finishes with

“39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Why because Peter had been given the power to bind on earth that which is bound in heaven. They were doing the baptisms of the dead which Paul spoke of in Cor 15.

 

[Rescued One]

Show me where God has said in the scriptures that Apostles are no longer necessary. I have proven from the scriptures that they are still necessary.
(See Ephesians 4:11-14)

The word gave is past tense, not present tense.

Ephesians 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

He never gave us false apostles, prophets, teachers!

Hebrews 1 (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And the Father and Son sent us the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles are the foundation of the Church. They taught us:

2 Timothy 3
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Peter1000]

Thank you Phoebe Ann, for this pointed apostate statement that totally ends any reason to hold what Joseph Smith said or wrote to be that of Biblical or Godly worthiness.

"we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God."

God always was and always was God. Who, in this universe told JS "how God became God"

Pure apostasy.

"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea,"

This quote is not only apostasy but blasphemy.

I could go on but these are more than enough....JS is dead and his book and theology should die with him.

"we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God."

You explain how God became God, and don't tell me that God has always been God.

And who told JS how God became God? God did.

The key to understanding this concept is that Jesus was not fully a God until he was resurrected with a perfect and exalted body of flesh and bones, just like his Father, God the Father had. The resurrection and the crowning glory of exaltation (the final process of Godhood) cannot happen until after the resurrection.
See Luke 13:32
And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and
tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

You see, Jesus in the scriptures tells us that he will not be perfected until after the 3rd day and is resurrected.
So he was not fully perfected at the time he made this statement, but obviously was perfected and exalted after the resurrection.

 

[Rescued One]

You explain how God became God, and don't tell me that God has always been God.

God has always been God.

Psalm 90
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

"the third day I shall be perfected"

Ellicott's Commentary:
Behold, I cast out devils.—What was the meaning of the message? What we read in Luke 23:8, perhaps, supplies the answer to that question. Herod “hoped to have seen some miracle done by Him,” and Jesus, reading his thoughts, tells him that the time for such sights and wonders was all but over. One day, and yet another, and yet a third—so our Lord describes, in proverbial speech (comp. the analogous forms of Exodus 5:14; Hosea 6:2), an interval of very short duration, and then “I am perfected.” The word is strictly a present tense used predictively, and may be either middle or passive in its meaning, the latter being most in harmony with the use of the verb elsewhere. “Then I am brought to the end; then I reach the goal of this human life of Mine.” Very noteworthy in connection with this passage is the prominence given to the verb throughout the Epistle to the Hebrews, as, e.g., in Hebrews 2:10; Hebrews 5:9.

 

[Peter1000]

The word gave is past tense, not present tense.

Of course it was past tense. Paul was telling us what Jesus had done while he was alive. But Jesus was not alive when he made the statement, so he use a past tense 'gave'. After Jesus 'gave' apostles and then went to heaven, he told the apostles to choose another one to take the place of Judas, which they did, Matthias became an apostle after Jesus 'gave'. So did Paul, and Barnabus, and others that are not recorded.
So not a true conclusion.

If you read Ephesians 4:13 it tells you that Jesus gave these offices 'until we all come into a unity of the faith'.
Are we, even today, in a unity of the faith? If we are then we do not need apostles, if we are not, Jesus says we do.

I guarantee that Luther says we don't need apostles, but Jesus said until we all come in the unity of the faith, we need apostles. Jesus or Luther, who will I believe?

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Are you conluding that because the words 'time past is used in this scripture that it means the apostles are only in 'time past' and so it is proof that we do not need apostles today. If you think that, then you are silly. This scripture in no way implies that Jesus did not want apostles to continue, try again.

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

If you think this proves that Jesus will not continue the apostles, you are wrong. This is just saying that in this day God is talking to us by His Son, Jesus Christ. For days after Jesus He will be talking to us by His apostles and prophets who are the foundation of His church.
Try again.

And the Father and Son sent us the Holy Spirit.

Now this is correct. But if they are all 1, how can only 1 of them be sent? Where are the other 2? This scripture only proves that God and Jesus and the HS are 3 separate persons and that God and Jesus stayed in heaven and sent the HS to the earth. Thanks for that. But it has no validity in telling us that Jesus was not going to continue the apostles. Try again.

2 Timothy 3
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

This scripture testifies of what Mormons call the apostasy. Thanks for that. But this does not prove that Jesus was not going to continue with apostles. Try again.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

This scripture proves my point. There is evidence that Timothy was an apostle after Paul died. And before Paul died, he wrote to Timothy and encouraged him to continue in the things which thou has learned.
IOW continue to do what apostles are called to do. Thanks for that, try again.

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

All fine scriptures, but do not prove that Jesus would not continue the apostles. So keep trying.

 

[Peter1000]

God has always been God.

Psalm 90
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.




Ellicott's Commentary:
Behold, I cast out devils.—What was the meaning of the message? What we read in Luke 23:8, perhaps, supplies the answer to that question. Herod “hoped to have seen some miracle done by Him,” and Jesus, reading his thoughts, tells him that the time for such sights and wonders was all but over. One day, and yet another, and yet a third—so our Lord describes, in proverbial speech (comp. the analogous forms of Exodus 5:14; Hosea 6:2), an interval of very short duration, and then “I am perfected.” The word is strictly a present tense used predictively, and may be either middle or passive in its meaning, the latter being most in harmony with the use of the verb elsewhere. “Then I am brought to the end; then I reach the goal of this human life of Mine.” Very noteworthy in connection with this passage is the prominence given to the verb throughout the Epistle to the Hebrews, as, e.g., in Hebrews 2:10; Hebrews 5:9.

That's all good, but who is Ellicott? Does this company speak for God? Is this God -breathed commentary? Why does the bible need a commentary anyway. Is there a possibiltiy that there could be more than 1 interpretation? Of Course. Mormons look at it one way and others look at it another. But just remember, our position is as valid as Ellicott.

 

[Rescued One]

That's all good, but who is Ellicott? Does this company speak for God? Is this God -breathed commentary? Why does the bible need a commentary anyway. Is there a possibiltiy that there could be more than 1 interpretation? Of Course. Mormons look at it one way and others look at it another. But just remember, our position is as valid as Ellicott.

No, the Mormon position is about a false god.

 

[Peter1000]

Withwonderingawe,

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Thanks for this information, I have not noticed that before. That is a very powerful scripture for baptism for the dead. For without us, these people would not be saved (made perfect).

You are very good. You and Jane are two reasons I stay on this forum. Happy New Year.[/QUOTE]