Did God create evil?

  • Yes

    Votes: 17 24.3%
  • No

    Votes: 33 47.1%
  • No, but He knew evil would be created by free agents when He created them

    Votes: 17 24.3%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 3 4.3%

  • Total voters
    70

Blade

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The problem is when "speculation" comes into play. From everything I have gathered I have never came to the conclusion that God ever made anything that was a robot..a puppet. Evil.. sin was found IN satan. God never made it. If that was the case everything we do now we can just toss off on GOD. He made us so... He MUST have known..no..why? There are things we cant answer as in God to Adam "where are you?" What? God didnt know? Then asking Adam "who said you were...?" again GOD didnt know?.. speculation..

No sin no evil can ever enter heaven nor can God think it or do it. Were talking about a GOD that knows all yet.. maybe can not touch see darkness... no clue. There are things God cant do. The ones in chains now.. are so evil that even GOD can not control..they are FREE. They made a free choice. God didnt make them evil. But His ways are so high way above us. He takes that evil and turns it to HIS glory..good
 
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DRobert

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OP, this discussion is like asking if Jesus, in his nature as a human being and as God, has the potential to be morally evil. Jesus has free will, is not a robot, and it isn't in his nature to be evil. I don't think you've considered this in your original post...

In Catholic theology, Adam and Eve had free will, were not robots, and were not created with the capacity to do evil. However, they disobeyed God due to the suggestion of another creature and, in good conscious, as I understand it, their nature was corrupted.

So, the question is "What is evil?" I get a sense here that we are all not of one mind and one agreement in this discussion as to what "evil" is.

How does the Catholic Church define evil and how do you define evil. To say God created a creature with the potential to do evil is implying in my view that God created a creature with an inherent nature to do evil even before any evil was even done. So a good question is "Creatures have free will. Did God give the potential for a creature to disobey? If the creature has the potential to disobey, does it mean God created them with a sin nature or is their nature corrupted after they exercise their free will to disobey?"

I'm not inclined to say God created intelligences with the potential to be evil because that is implying God created intelligences with an inherent, corrupted nature. So, I'm interested to know how you define "evil" in comparison to the teachings of the Catholic Church. How do you define evil and how does the Catholic Church define evil.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Hi OP. Thanks for replying. Is your definition of "free agent" your own or from a specific source?

In other words, by free agent you mean a creature that has free will defined according to the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Thanks for clarifying "potential". I was wondering also which dictionary did you use to define "potential"?

Free agent: a creature that has free will defined according to the teachings of the Catholic Church
Potential: Google dictionary (the first definition that pops up)

I'm trying not to use any specifically philosophical language, just using plain English (that's my aim anyway).
 
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DRobert

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Does a creature have the potential to do evil? Yes, but God did not create them with the potential to do evil. It was not in their nature to do evil. By exercising their free evil, they had the capacity to do evil and reject the
Free agent: a creature that has free will defined according to the teachings of the Catholic Church
Potential: Google dictionary (the first definition that pops up)

I'm trying not to use any specifically philosophical language, just using plain English (that's my aim anyway).

Okay, cool. Thanks for sharing.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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thesunisout

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But it is contradictory, you are saying He would/will change a heart in such a way that they will never sin again, even though they still have the potential to. This is the contradiction in the OP, having the potential to sin will always lead to sin.

That's your theory, but in the New Heaven and the New Earth there will be no sin, so scripture is contradicting that.

What if I believe He is something He isn't? Must I believe He is the God I first believed in without any growth in getting to know Him?

This isn't growth, this is putting God on trial. The growth that we are called to is to abide in Jesus Christ, where we grow in virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love. The fruits of the Spirit. That is what it means to be a Christian, to be more and more like Jesus Christ every day.

Jesus Christ never put God on trial or questioned His motivations. You're playing philosophical jeopardy on the forums but I notice you never talk about Jesus Christ. If you want to know who God is, look at Jesus Christ because He said "I and the Father are one". He also said "If you've seen me you've seen the Father." Jesus Christ is exactly like the Father.

I know God personally, and the scripture says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. You've talked yourself out of fearing Him and that is an extremely dangerous place for you to be. You think your brain is going to solve this problem but the real trouble is with your heart, because this is about faith and not what you can figure out. Satan rules these thought realms and intellectually in our flesh we are pip squeaks compared to him. When you start to go this way it is because the devil is wrapping you around his finger and tearing you away from God. When you get out of it you'll think you're right but you won't have Jesus Christ any longer, you'll have some counterfeit facsimile of Him which cannot save you.
 
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thesunisout

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Regardless of whether you are aware of it or not, when you question whether a person is sinless or not (when they assure you they are not currently sinning), you are striving to enforce a belief upon them that can lead them to think that they can never act righteously as Jesus and His followers taught. If you believe I am wrong, you need to convince me otherwise. For where does righteous living fit in with your belief?


...

I believe we can lead a righteous life according to the scripture. I don't think anyone has to sin, and we have no excuse for our sin. It's clear from the scripture that saints do sin however, whether willfully or unknowingly:

1 John 2:1

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

If saints never sinned we wouldn't need an Advocate; that is why God has made a provision for our sin.

If you're talking about sinless perfectionism then we don't need to proceed any further. I think that interpretation of scripture is flawed, that its adherents do not rightly divide the word of truth.
 
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jimayars

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Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p')^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?
This logic is false, on several levels.
1--It ignores the relational aspect between God and the "free agents" He created. The longer the "free agents" enjoy the divine relationship, the less likely that they will do evil. God Himself does no evil; the more the "free agents" relate to Him who by nature is good, the less the potential for them to do its opposite -- evil.
2--In religious philosophy, evil has no logical reason to exist at all. It is a "dysteleological surd." To explain its rise is to justify its existence, as the proposed syllogism demonstrates. That it arose at all is against all logic in the theological cosmos.
3--In Judaeo-Christian theology, God is the original "free agent," yet the doing of evil is contrary to His "free agent" nature. His created "free agents" were created in His image, and therefore the doing of evil is also contrary to their natures, since they are like God.
4-You commit the Slippery Slope Fallacy when you equate the potential to do evil with the impossibility to remain sinless. Potential does not equate to inevitable.
5--The "Free Agent" Creator of "free agency" has also provided for the correction of any "free agency" failure through what is called "The Atonement." Evil will ultimately disappear into mere memory through the lessons learned under "free agency." This is not a matter of "the end justifies the means," but that the original "free agent" ultimately achieves His ultimate "end" irrespective of how we get there. He always freely wins, no matter what we freely choose.
 
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Johnas

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This is nothing new, YHVH comes right out and says this in Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

The Satan's main argument is: "What choice did I have??? He created me TO BE THE DEVIL!"

We see many examples of the world siding with the Satan's argument such as the Rolling Stones, "Sympathy for the Devil". Other examples are "Born this way" by Lady Gaga, and just a general social theme of being, "Self Forgiving" or "Self Accepting", or even judging ones self as "Saved".

I have heard the argument by MANY (typically by Atheists, pagans, and satan worshipers) that asks,"If God is all knowing, and knew I was going to sin, and knows whether or not I'm going to spend eternity in heaven or hell, even before he created me, yet CREATED ME ANYWAY... What choice do I really have???"

Though all of this is true, and all of these arguments are quite valid in their perceived logic, ESPECIALLY given what is and isn't being taught from the pulpit today, it still amazes me how few pursue, and are given eternal insight and acceptance into the true nature of YHVH, by YHVH himself. Ergo. How many PURPOSELY and willingly blind themselves to the laws of the creator of the universe... THE UNIVERSE mind you.

So with that, a thread like this is nothing more than just another way of having the OSAS "conversation", which is nothing more than a never ending argument by the confused, for the confused, intended to have no end, other than the continued perpetuation of confusion. But not just any ole' confusion mind you, the kind of biblical confusion that has come as a judgment by YHVH, whose ETERNAL LAW says that he will turn you over to your sin.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Sorry to persist, but which of the premises is false? You haven't actually stated which premise is false.

You said,

YouAreAwesome said:
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil

Knowing about evil does not mean God is responsible for the evil that free willed man had chosen. They still had free will to do good by choosing to accept Christ and by choosing to remain in Him. If this was not the case, then God couldn't judge them if He knew they couldn't do good by choosing His Son (See John 3:16).

As for angels: some chose to do good and some chose to do bad of their own free will. This means the bad angels had a choice to do good but simply chose not to do so. Hence, why God is able to judge them.

You also said,

YouAreAwesome said:
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

Please forgive me, but by the words you used, it sounds like you are practically throwing the book at God here. It also sounds like your final verdict on all of mankind is guilty with no hope in sight for them because you believe no saint can be sinless. You have thrown down your hammer of judgment against God and His people. But the good news is that God's people can overcome their sin in this life by the power of Jesus living in them. It is why they are called saints. It's why the saints are praised for their faith in Hebrews 11. For would you consider Abraham, Job, Enoch, Stephen, and Paul as evil men? Maybe at one time in their life they were bad. But they chose the good to finally rule over their lives. They chose God and He transformed them and He worked thru them. They became vessels of God's goodness. So I do not see how all as continuing in their sin and remaining in evil (as you suggest). For Romans 3:23 is not the end of the story or final fate or ultimate choice for man. The final choice of doing good or in being good is in choosing Jesus. For no evil can rule a man 's life if they had surrendered their life completely to Christ.


...
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Using this argument you used the Angels that did not sin with Lucifer will sin one day and all be damned
Good point. Was there an "end" to the angels moral free will? Can they still fall? If they can no longer fall then it supports the previous arguments presented regarding infinite time; premise 4 would then be false. Adam and Eve would only hold the potential to sin for a finite time.

Also using your logic all believers in heaven will one day torn from the lord and be damned as well
I don't think so. If the OP is correct, then there will be exactly zero potential for evil in heaven.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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p is the propensity to not do evil
No, p' is the probability of not doing evil.
p
is the probability of doing evil.

Is it a real or complex function?
Real.

Is it periodic, linear, hyperbolic, or a n-potent function? Is it composite?
I'm assuming the probability, p, of choosing evil varies in time in the interval (0,1), thus creating a polynomial function on the Cartesian plane where the x-axis is time and the y-axis is the potential to do evil.

A created being that maintains its perfection willing chooses to give up its free will to follow the will of God 100%.
So Adam and Eve never did this?
Also, do you believe we give up our TOTAL free will, or just our MORAL free will in choosing to follow God?
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Evil.. sin was found IN satan. God never made it.
It's interesting, God made Satan, Satan was found in evil, yet God is not the cause of it, even though the OP may show that it might have been impossible for Satan not to choose evil at some point.

There are things God cant do
Agree.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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To say God created a creature with the potential to do evil is implying in my view that God created a creature with an inherent nature to do evil even before any evil was even done.
The argument is not that Adam was given an inherent nature to do evil, rather the nature of Adam was perfect, but when presented with a significant moral choice Adam had the potential to choose evil. Adam was presented with this choice and the choice existed ever since Adam was created. The potential to choose evil remained constant throughout Adam's life until he chose evil.

"Did God give the potential for a creature to disobey?
It came as part of the moral free will package.

If the creature has the potential to disobey, does it mean God created them with a sin nature or is their nature corrupted after they exercise their free will to disobey?
Not created with a sin nature, the latter. Their nature was corrupted after they disobeyed.

How do you define evil and how does the Catholic Church define evil.
Evil=Disobeying God.
I'm not sure of the Catholic Church definition.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Knowing about evil does not mean God is responsible for the evil that free willed man had chosen.
I'm sorry, but your post is not in conflict with Premise #5. Nor did you specifically find fault in #6, #7 or #8.

It also sounds like your final verdict on all of mankind is guilty with no hope in sight for them because you believe no saint can be sinless.
No, I do not believe this. And I would like to find the OP false. I just don't know how to. If God is the indirect cause of evil then I need to figure out how to fit this in to my current belief system. Before I noticed this anomaly, I've believed there is the possibility that Adam and Eve could have never sinned. There is the loophole within probability that says the impossible can happen (i.e. If I say random numbers for an infinite time, the probability of me stating those exact numbers is 0). I've used this idea to believe sin was NOT inevitable. And, I still think it's true, but I just don't know how to get there.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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For God to perform the ultimate act of divine love, the Creator dying to save His own creation, free will and evil were necessary to create the circumstance for His ultimate Gift to us, salvation through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Yes, He created it all.
Thanks, and welcome to CF :) Which premise do you find false?
 
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YouAreAwesome

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You still need to add some constants, and make the exponent negative so that as t goes to infinity, we don't get 1 - p^(infinity), we get 1 - 1/[p^(infinity)].

Unless p itself is less than 1, then p^t is fine.

And, we need to define p - the potential NOT to sin. Thank you for the clarification because I didn't know where you were going. But, since we know p is a function of "not sinning," then naturally functions representing repentance, sin, etc. must be contained in p.

At the very least, you need to define p further.
Yes, I forgot to put the ' on the p to show it is the complement. p is a probability so I don't need a negative power. I'm using the idea of at least one sin to create the equation, hence the one minus. But well done for noticing :)

Also, we don't need to include repentance etc. because I'm only dealing with time up and until the sin, no more.
 
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