Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Athée]

God holds back what rightfully should happen to us due to our sin. We are the morally culpable ones, not God. Yes, He certainly has the power to hold it all back, but that is neither His will nor His plan. The curse of our sin is not removed until we reach heaven...there we are told all curse is removed.
So, God is not morally responsible for the things He allows to happen. All such bad and evil is a consequence of sin...our sin. We are sinners, doomed to hell, but Jesus rescued us from our sin and its consequences...again, God's plan...and we either take hold of that salvation through faith in Christ and work out our salvation by way of holy living with repentance when we stumble into sin which He mercifully and faithfully forgives by His grace.

So in the instances where he decides not to hold back, is he morally responsible for what happens?

 

[Athée]

Yes, He gives a clear description by way of His Word.

That's exactly the problem as I see it. The division and strife about what the Bible actually says and teaches seems to me to be evidence that it is not particularly clear. Do you disagree?

 

[victorinus]

Do you think that the kinds of explanations that strike you as reasonable might be influenced by your worldview?

I consider myself an enlightened person who has been influenced by my environment but not restricted by it

 

[Athée]

I consider myself an enlightened person who has been influenced by my environment but not restricted by it

Are you agreeing that our worldview will influence the kinds of explanations we find reasonable?
Does the fact that you consider yourself enlightened, free you from the confirmation bias that seems to plague humanity?

 

[victorinus]

Are you agreeing that our worldview will influence the kinds of explanations we find reasonable?
Does the fact that you consider yourself enlightened, free you from the confirmation bias that seems to plague humanity?

I don't accept the term worldview as controlling
-but-
I do have some definite beliefs that I cannot compromise
-and-
I will give you some examples
-we are created by God
-we have free will
-that free will is being tested
-
I could come up with more given time
-but-
I consider it unreasonable to deny any one of them

 

[throughfiierytrial]

So in the instances where he decides not to hold back, is he morally responsible for what happens?

No, as I said, we are those responsible for sin entering into the world with its resulting negative and evil consequences.
Perhaps one could say that you are known as a "good guy" who always does his best to help and protect his neighbor...even in instances which the neighbor causes his own dilemma due to sin, negligence or ignorance...so one day you decide not to play the role for that day. Are you morally responsible for your neighbors woes during this time? Of course not, the neighbor is at fault. Perhaps he/she will learn some valuable lessons that day and just maybe that's what you intended all along.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Why do you think God allowed that spilt to occur?

Because fallen people (us) have free will, and He will not step in to "fix" a situation. Patriarch Michael and Cardinal Humbert were the wrong two people at the wrong time. Neither were listening to the Holy Spirit, so the split happened, and it is just in the past century that any steps have been made to healing that gaping wound.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The way I see that analogy the marbles are all different and God tells you to find the right one but he doesn't give you a clear description of what it looks like. Does that make sense?

Your analogy is wrong. God has described in specifics how you can find a Spirit-led Christian. But the differences are so minor to someone who is on the outside looking in.

The marble you are looking for has a specific gravity of 4.00 to 1. It has a refractive index of 1.76. It is a deep blue that under certain lights and looked at in certain positions can have flashes of red in it.

Most people with training in gemology will know right off hand that you are looking for a sapphire. However, even they will have to look at all of the blue marbles to find the one sapphire (worth thousands of dollars) when the rest are glass, worth pennies.

 

[Athée]

I don't accept the term worldview as controlling
-but-
I do have some definite beliefs that I cannot compromise
-and-
I will give you some examples
-we are created by God
-we have free will
-that free will is being tested
-
I could come up with more given time
-but-
I consider it unreasonable to deny any one of them

So when you put those beliefs together they form this filter that you have, which you use to test out new props ed explanations. Some reasonable explanations will fit those beliefs really well, some resonable explanations will not. Do you think that your prior commitment to those beliefs will influence the kinds of responses you will see as reasonable?

 

[Monk Brendan]

So in the instances where he decides not to hold back, is he morally responsible for what happens?

You keep trying to make God responsible for something that has happened that you consider wrong. While God IS responsible for the whole world, and all that is in it, and for the functioning of the earth, plants, animals and people, he is NOT in control of man's free will. He did not make puppets or robots. He made PEOPLE!

If something happens to your neighbor, there can be a million reasons for it to happen. Note: I did not say what happened to your neighbor. Maybe he won the Lottery! Maybe lightning struck his house. In these things, God is testing your neighbor. Maybe your neighbor will pass, and maybe he will fail. If he won the Lottery, God has given him that money as a test, to see what he will do with it. If lightning struck his house, it is his fault that he did not have a lightning rod up, which would have saved his house. But now, God will see how His servant will react to that test.

Your test is to look to ONE person (maybe your wife), to find a way to fall in love with God. You're halfway there now. You love your wife and she loves you.

Christians are all (especially me) fallen humans. No one person has a lock on truth.

 

[Chriliman]

The way I see that analogy the marbles are all different and God tells you to find the right one but he doesn't give you a clear description of what it looks like. Does that make sense?

Well if we stay true to the analogy then it wouldn't be God telling you about the marble, it would be someone who knows what the marble is like and explains it to you.

God couldn't care less about marbles

 

[Athée]

No, as I said, we are those responsible for sin entering into the world with its resulting negative and evil consequences.
Perhaps one could say that you are known as a "good guy" who always does his best to help and protect his neighbor...even in instances which the neighbor causes his own dilemma due to sin, negligence or ignorance...so one day you decide not to play the role for that day. Are you morally responsible for your neighbors woes during this time? Of course not, the neighbor is at fault. Perhaps he/she will learn some valuable lessons that day and just maybe that's what you intended all along.

If you could go back and respond to the analogy I presented earlier about killing people in your family, I think this will hilight where your analogy falls apart for me.

 

[Athée]

Well if we stay true to the analogy then it wouldn't be God telling you about the marble, it would be someone who knows what the marble is like and explains it to you.

God couldn't care less about marbles

Does that mean that God doesn't have any role in telling you the truth, it is only other believers as you suggested above?

 

[MrsBrit]

Except that the Epistles all indicate that the goal is complete unity in maturity as a body. Also false doctrine is a serious issue dealt with in the these letters...not to be taken lightly then and certainly not authored by the Holy Spirit. Divisions and divisive people were to be dealt with.
One might guess that all these divisions are caused by immaturity and the sinful nature which leans toward arrogance.

Does it really matter whether we worship God as Methodists, Catholics, Episcopalians? I was brought up in The Church Of England and we considered all other Churches not "proper" Churches, we were convinced that we were the body of the Church. Since then I have worshipped in Methodist and Episcopalian Churches and really am of the opinion that so long as we pray, try to keep The Commandments and endeavor to be good Christians it matters not how or where we worship God.

 

[victorinus]

So when you put those beliefs together they form this filter that you have, which you use to test out new props ed explanations. Some reasonable explanations will fit those beliefs really well, some resonable explanations will not. Do you think that your prior commitment to those beliefs will influence the kinds of responses you will see as reasonable?

reasonable explanations will fit -
others will not

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Does it really matter whether we worship God as Methodists, Catholics, Episcopalians? I was brought up in The Church Of England and we considered all other Churches not "proper" Churches, we were convinced that we were the body of the Church. Since then I have worshipped in Methodist and Episcopalian Churches and really am of the opinion that so long as we pray, try to keep The Commandments and endeavor to be good Christians it matters not how or where we worship God.

I understand your sentiments...fully. I however was never taught that God saved only those of my denomination.
It remains that only the Word, the great sword of the Spirit, contains the means for life. The empirical evidence you present is weakened by the the evidence of the Word which I pointed out previously. The fact remains the Word says God desires unity and that those who are devisive are to be avoided.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

If you could go back and respond to the analogy I presented earlier about killing people in your family, I think this will hilight where your analogy falls apart for me.

You see righteousness and justice through veiled eyes as Paul would have it because that veil has not yet been taken away by faith in Jesus. I say this b/c you do not seem to accept that all evil is caused by the curse of the sin of mankind and the devil.

 

[Athée]

reasonable explanations will fit -
others will not

Do you accept that there might be more than one reasonable or at least internally consistent explanarion for an event?

 

[Athée]

You see righteousness and justice through veiled eyes as Paul would have it because that veil has not yet been taken away by faith in Jesus. I say this b/c you do not seem to accept that all evil is caused by the curse of the sin of mankind and the devil.

That is correct, I don't see harm as being caused by the fall of humanity because I don't belive that such a thing ever happened. You do however and for you this serves to justify your beliefs about good and evil. Fair enough. That said I notice you didn't respond to my analogy as requested. Why do you think you made that choice? And how would you respond to the question posed in that analogy. Namely would I have been morally responsible for the deaths of your family members if my henchmen had asked me for permission to kill them and I granted it?

 

[Chriliman]

Does that mean that God doesn't have any role in telling you the truth, it is only other believers as you suggested above?

God is the source of truth and he creates in order to convey that truth to others through relationship. I used the marble analogy to convey the idea that there is only One way to God and that's through Jesus Christ, God's Son. So Jesus is like that one special marble and God is always pointing you to Jesus in order to enter relationship and know God the Father as being self-sacrificial and all loving. This is the Gospel in a nut shell, the more you earnestly seek the more revelation you'll receive.

Although, it really doesn't matter how much revelation you receive if you never accept it as true and follow.