Just for once let us all try to be honest.

[AV1611VET]

Oh, I get it now. It's the props you're worried about. It all makes sense.

What? me worry?

 

[mmksparbud]

Indeed; an individual's free expression of religion shall not be impeded - but not the government! Placing religious symbols in a governmental building favors a religion (unless you have every religion's symbols, which will be difficult to say the least). If you had a generic symbol, perhaps that would be fine - but no, that would favor religion as a concept, and what about the atheists?

Likewise, children can most definitely pray in school; the laws prohibit a teacher from doing so, because that would be favoring that religion, telling the children "this one is best". And there are no laws saying that you cannot pray, mention Jesus, or display the TC (on your property!).

There weren't 20 million denominations then, nor a whole lot of different religions---this was a Christian nation and as such they wrote the Constitution and as such they had the TC on every government building and prayer was said --in the name of Jesus --at each and every meeting of Congress! And teachers in the classrooms prayed in the name of Jesus in every room! All public government meetings were led by prayer.

"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

You ate totally and completely wrong, and as an atheist are bound to be for you do not know the Godly, biblical principals upon which this nation was built!

 

[rjs330]

Why would you assume that? Unless you already know that the Bible has quite a few errors in it.

The Bible doesn't have errors in it. Maybe a wrong word here or there based upon an translation issue, but nothing significant. Folks like you love to twist the scriptures to your own destruction. But that's to be expected. The Bible makes no claim the earth is flat. It uses colorful language or metaphors to describe a thought. Unless you are actually claiming the Bible says God has wings and looks like a door.

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[rjs330]

You do realize that the Adam and Eve story is a morality story at best, don't you?

No it's actual fact.

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[Belk]

Who says that?

It is against the forum rules to name them but several Christian posters in the political forums have made the claim whenever this topic comes up.

 

[AV1611VET]

It is against the forum rules to name them but several Christian posters in the political forums have made the claim whenever this topic comes up.

Hmmm.

I'll keep an eye out for such posts.

Albeit my favorite haunt here is CREATION & EVOLUTION, so I may not see it anytime soon.

 

[rjs330]

That's going to come as a real surprise to all those the Jews and Muslims we allow to live here...

Actually it shouldn't be a surprise if the real history if this country were taught anymore. Speaking of education. Folks like you completely twist what it means to be a Christian nation. Let me help with this. A Christian nation speaks to the predominant beliefs in the country and those beliefs are welcome in the public square in schools and in the government. It does NOT mean we have a national religion controlled by and through the government. It means the ten commandments are welcome in the court rooms. It does not mean that the court can require anyone to obey them. It means that Scripture can be carved upon the government buildings and written in the stones of the Capitol. It does not mean that we all must worship the same God or even believe in him. It means we can have nativity scenes on the city hall lawn. It does not mean all people have to believe in the virgin birth or even celebrate Christmas. It means we can recognize that Christianity is the predominant belief of the founders and that the Bible can sit on a teachers desk, but no one can be forced to be part of a church or worship God.

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[Belk]

Hmmm.

I'll keep an eye out for such posts.

Albeit my favorite haunt here is CREATION & EVOLUTION, so I may not see it anytime soon.

I'll ping you the next time I see one.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'll ping you the next time I see one.

Okies.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Actually it shouldn't be a surprise if the real history if this country were taught anymore. Speaking of education. Folks like you completely twist what it means to be a Christian nation. Let me help with this. A Christian nation speaks to the predominant beliefs in the country and those beliefs are welcome in the public square in schools and in the government. It does NOT mean we have a national religion controlled by and through the government.

Do we agree that it also does NOT mean such a religion is funded by the government?

I'm not talking about tax breaks for churches; that's a different animal. I'm taking about government-funded religion.

It means the ten commandments are welcome in the court rooms. It does not mean that the court can require anyone to obey them. It means that Scripture can be carved upon the government buildings and written in the stones of the Capitol. It does not mean that we all must worship the same God or even believe in him. It means we can have nativity scenes on the city hall lawn. It does not mean all people have to believe in the virgin birth or even celebrate Christmas. It means we can recognize that Christianity is the predominant belief of the founders and that the Bible can sit on a teachers desk, but no one can be forced to be part of a church or worship God.

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All of which is paid for with my tax money. And if I refuse to pay taxes because of this, I go to jail.

Therefore, it means that I'm forced -- by law -- to pay for your religious idols.

Pass.

 

[Mobezom]

There weren't 20 million denominations then, nor a whole lot of different religions---this was a Christian nation and as such they wrote the Constitution and as such they had the TC on every government building and prayer was said --in the name of Jesus --at each and every meeting of Congress! And teachers in the classrooms prayed in the name of Jesus in every room! All public government meetings were led by prayer.

So since it was the way things were before... it has to be good, it can't possibly be exclusive to those of other religions, right? Reactionaries... *eyeroll*

You ate totally and completely wrong, and as an atheist are bound to be for you do not know the Godly, biblical principals upon which this nation was built!

Tell that to Adams...

 

[rjs330]

Do we agree that it also does NOT mean such a religion is funded by the government?

I'm not talking about tax breaks for churches; that's a different animal. I'm taking about government-funded religion.



All of which is paid for with my tax money. And if I refuse to pay taxes because of this, I go to jail.

Therefore, it means that I'm forced -- by law -- to pay for your religious idols.

Pass.

But that is the nature of our government. Aren't you one that supports paying taxes? Aren't you one that supports paying taxes even if that tax money is used for things I may not individually believe in? I don't believe that tax money should be used to pay for abortions. Yet you would support that and tell me I shouldn't be allowed not to pay taxes. Tax dollars are not being used to support a certain church or prop up a failing church. They are being used in the recognition that we are a Christian nation and its ok. Buying a nativity scene or a cross or a ten commandments is not spending money to support a certain church. There is no control no demand no requirements and no laws involved requiring anyone to believe a particular thing.

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[Subduction Zone]

Wow.

Just wow.

That is one sad train of thought.

We're "intruders" are we?

That's sad ... that's really very sad.

Yes, it is rather sad that you can't see this. This country was not started by and for Christians. Many of the fathers of the country were deists at best. The religious rights of everyone have to be treated equally. It is rather obvious if you read the Constitution. You are in this way the "intruders".

 

[Subduction Zone]

No likely, but you keep on dreaming. I have a bunch of bread that I have to go make,I stay up all night due to medical issues and can only sleep a little during day. So, off to play with my yeast and you can play ---"Nope---there is no God, Nope, there is no God, Nope there is no GodWe'll both be finding out soon--I'll have missed out on nothing in this life and in the next gain everything, you on the other hand----ouch!

I seriously doubt your claim about not missing out on life. It is rather apparent that you have. Also you really need to try to understand what atheism is. It is rather obvious that you know as little about atheism as you do about science. And odds are that you won't "find out soon". You probably will never know. And even i there is a God if he is a just God I will surely be going to no worse of a place than you are going to.

 

[TLK Valentine]

But that is the nature of our government. Aren't you one that supports paying taxes? Aren't you one that supports paying taxes even if that tax money is used for things I may not individually believe in?

Isn't there a First Amendment which says the government cannot force me by law to support a religion in any way?

I don't believe that tax money should be used to pay for abortions. Yet you would support that and tell me I shouldn't be allowed not to pay taxes.[

Actually, no, I don't support it, and you don't have to, because under the Hyde Amendment, tax money doesn't pay for abortion, except when the mother's life is in danger, or in the cases of rape or incest.

Now, if you have a problem with saving the mother's life, or are somehow pro rape and/or incest pregnancy, you can most certainly petition your government to amend the Hyde Amendment...

But abortion is not a religion, so the First Amendment doesn't come into play.

Try again.

Tax dollars are not being used to support a certain church or prop up a failing church.

One could argue that they are -- why aren't these churches putting up their idols on their own property?

They are being used in the recognition that we are a Christian nation and its ok.

Actually, it's not okay because the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

Buying a nativity scene or a cross or a ten commandments is not spending money to support a certain church.

It supports a certain religion -- which the First Amendment forbids.

Unless, of course, you allow every religion that wants its share of the pie to join in... and you're willing to pony up.

The Church of Satan has never been shy about offering themselves as the test cases for such events... shockingly, the Christians usually end up backing down when they realize who they've invited to feast at the government trough.

There is no control no demand no requirements and no laws involved requiring anyone to believe a particular thing.

There is plenty of control, demand, and requirements. I pay for your religious idols or else I go to jail.

I've got a First Amendment that says I don't have to do that -- what have you got?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible doesn't have errors in it. Maybe a wrong word here or there based upon an translation issue, but nothing significant. Folks like you love to twist the scriptures to your own destruction. But that's to be expected. The Bible makes no claim the earth is flat. It uses colorful language or metaphors to describe a thought. Unless you are actually claiming the Bible says God has wings and looks like a door.

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Of course it has errors in it. Don't be silly. It has hundreds of self contradictions alone. We know that there never was a worldwide flood. We know that there were never only two people on this Earth.

And I do not twist the scriptures. I see Christians doing that far more often than I ever would.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The Bible doesn't have errors in it. Maybe a wrong word here or there based upon an translation issue, but nothing significant.

Fine, the Bible only has minor errors in it. Happy?

 

[mmksparbud]

I seriously doubt your claim about not missing out on life. It is rather apparent that you have. Also you really need to try to understand what atheism is. It is rather obvious that you know as little about atheism as you do about science. And odds are that you won't "find out soon". You probably will never know. And even i there is a God if he is a just God I will surely be going to no worse of a place than you are going to.

So what do you think I have missed out on?? What is apparent? Why do I need to know about Atheism? You have no God in your life, you have no idea what it means, that is your choice. Why on earth, would anyone who believes in God, want to "find out soon" about not wanting to be with God??? Your way of life does not interest me at all. That does not mean that I would not find you, your personality and so on, of interest, and to care enough to wish that you could know Him.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No it's actual fact.

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No matter how wrong you make an incorrect statement it will always be incorrect. There were never only two human beings on the face of the Earth. Individuals don't evolve, populations do. There was always a rather large population of humans and our predecessors.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So what do you think I have missed out on?? What is apparent? Why do I need to know about Atheism? You have no God in your life, you have no idea what it means, that is your choice. Why on earth, would anyone who believes in God, want to "find out soon" about not wanting to be with God??? Your way of life does not interest me at all. That does not mean that I would not find you, your personality and so on, of interest, and to care enough to wish that you could know Him.

You have obviously missed out on a scientific education to start with. It is hard to truly appreciate the world that we live in without one. And if you make a statement about something you really should know what you are talking about. And the reason that I have no God in my life is the same reason that you don't have one either.

Please, don't make charges against others that you can't support. Let's try to stick with the science since this is a science based areas of the forum. Plain and simple there is no scientific evidence that supports your beliefs. Almost all creationists do not understand the relatively simple concept of scientific evidence. For some reason it seems to scare them.