davew-ohev,
1. My point was that the jews were offered the new covenant not the gentiles. Paul said the same thing that the gentiles had no covenant.
The Heb 8:6-10 NEW Covenant made for the entire NT saints - is a quote of Jeremiah 31:31-33 as we all know.
The reason Paul includes Gentiles in that - is because of Romans 2 and Romans 9.
bobryan,
1. You are misunderstanding the context.
Yes they concerning the same new covenant concerning the cross of salvation.
However, the context of Jeremiah 31 is about the new covenant being applied to the nation of Israel
Hebrews 8 says this --
4 Now
if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned
by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant
7 For if that first
covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them,
He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For
this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
It is the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-33 - and is applied to all Christians as we both know. In fact - as we all know.
3. Romans 2 is talking about the jews who had the covenants to begin with and rejected the kingdom offer they had to be saved by the blood and not the law and this made them a true jew.
Romans 2 speaks specifically to gentiles - not only to physical Jews.
13 for
it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For
when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that
they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
25 For indeed
circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So
if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter
of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
4. Since we the gentiles who are in the church are a true jew because of salvation being offered to us and us accepting it and because of the fact we have been grafted in.
Which means the Hebrews 8 New Covenant applies to Christians - Jews and Gentiles -- both.
God writes His Law on the heart - and Jeremiah was not speaking of his own according - but was an inspired prophet who "
spoke from God" 2 Peter 1:19-21
5. This is separate from the earthly calling of the head of the nations of Israel in the Kingdom age. Isaiah 2:2-4; Isaiah 9:6-7 etc.
6. Jeremiah 31 plainly says that the new covenant offered to Israel was based on repentance
And Hebrews 11 shows that many of the OT saints were Jews.
1. Once again you have not read the whole context of Jeremiah 31 and you are fixated on just the new covenant of salvation itself and not the whole context.
I am "fixated" on paying attention to the Bible details listed above - that you need to ignore.
Because -- "Bible details matter". The idea of ignoring the text of Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 where the NEW covenant text is actually written -- as a way to "imagine your way" to another more fictional version - is not at all compelling in the "Sola Scriptura" model that we use.
3. Jeremiah 31:-34 say the same basic thing but you have to read further on down in Jeremiah to understand the fulness of what was being spoken.
Here again - ignoring the actual text of the New Covenant would be like ignoring Exodus 20 to describe the Ten Commandments. It is pointless.
Also, you cannot account for the verses in both the Jeremiah and Hebrews passage that when Israel repents no man will have to teach them.
Why do you say that? Because you have not read John 16 and 1 John 2?? What is your point?
Jews that don't understand the Messianic context are stuck in the law
That is a "straw man" -- the argument is not that the "ONE Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 as we see it in Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-10 -- is to be defined apart from Christ/Messiah. Why even go down that road?
bobryan,
1. The gospel of redemption of the messiah forgiving sins is first found in Genesis 3:15.
2. It was veiled in types and shadows through the period of law.
3. Jesus was the reality of the type and shadows but was under the age of the Mosaic law and could not teach the new covenant for it had no happened until the cross.
4. John the Baptist came to manifest Christ as Messiah to Israel John 1:31. Christ said he had power to save and forgive of sins and he did and he told them to believe in him.
Every age was to believe in whatever revelation they had of Christ whether through conscience or the written law.
True - is that the point in dispute?
Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel
Gel 3:7-8 the Gospel was preached to Abraham
Heb 4:1 - the Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also
Heb 11 -- Giants of the faith - are all OT saints affirmed even in the NT as examples for us.
5. The overall plan of redemption has always been Christ on the cross but was not understood exactly like us after the cross even in Jesus day.
6. Jesus never said believe in my death, burial and resurrection in order to be saved during the KOH and the KOG message in his earthly ministry.
Matt 24 "THIS Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world and then shall the end come"
John 11 He who believes on me shall not perish.
7. As far as the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 is not in dispute within itself for the new covenant happened at the cross.
You are still "qouting you" and not Jer 31:31-33 or Hebrews 8:6-10 in their own statement on what the New Covenant is.
Is there a reason that you "only quote"??
The NEW Covenant is made with 'The House of ISrael' in that text - is this why you do not quote it??
