GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?

[YouAreAwesome]

I think that your response was one of the most absurd "analogies" I have ever seen someone try to use on CF.

Exactly!!! it is absurd to teach the sabbath is moral because the other commandments on stone are moral. It is not an argument! It is absurd! Is my mum a male? I mean, all the rest of us in our family are male.

 

[AbbaLove]

I am asking how the Sabbath is moral.

After His death, we see that Yeshua's Apostles followed His example in their observance of the Sabbath day. “Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures” (Acts 17:2). “And [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4).

Today most 'Christians' who profess to follow Christ Jesus do not follow the example set by Him and His apostles. Most Christians don't realize that the rejection of the Sabbath as the Christian day of worship did not start until almost 300 years after Yeshua's ministry on earth. The substitution of Sunday for the Sabbath was orchestrated by the Roman emperor Constantine.

Thus, we have to conclude that the Sabbath day was not a ceremonial law. All Ten Commandments are moral laws ... except to those Christians who believe they are ceremonial laws.

​

 

[gadar perets]

Summary of reasons:

1. It is immoral to force 7 days of work.

The Sabbath is a forced specific rest day. What if I want to rest on Wednesday instead? Is this immoral? Therefore, this is not a reason.

Here is Merriam-Websters #1 definition of "moral" - of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior. Our Creator gave mankind the Sabbath (Mark 2:27). He commanded it be kept holy. To not keep it holy is immoral because that is contrary to right behavior. Resting on Wednesday is not immoral since Yahweh never said we couldn't rest on Wednesday. He said we are to rest on the 7th day and not do any work. Therefore, to work on the 7th day is immoral.

2. Immoral to not give God glory by following His command.

This reasoning would apply to the whole law including for example circumcision.

You took my words out of context. I said it was immoral to not give Him glory "for His work of creation by the means He has chosen to receive such glory". The only command He gave mankind in order for us to remember His work of creation was the Sabbath.

3. It is immoral to remove a sign.

Circumcision is removed and was a sign.

Again you took my words out of context. Yahweh gave no other sign through which we are to know that it is "YHWH" that sanctifies us:

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am YHWH that doth sanctify you.
​

4. Immoral to trample on what God blessed.

Circular reasoning. You are assuming it is required first, and then using that assumption to prove that it is required.


The question remains, how is the sabbath moral?

I am not trying to prove it is required. It is beyond question that it is required. I am proving it is immoral to break it.

 

[visionary]

Summary of reasons:

1. It is immoral to force 7 days of work. The Sabbath is a forced specific rest day. What if I want to rest on Wednesday instead? Is this immoral? Therefore, this is not a reason.

2. Immoral to not give God glory by following His command. This reasoning would apply to the whole law including for example circumcision.

3. It is immoral to remove a sign. Circumcision is removed and was a sign.

4. Immoral to trample on what God blessed. Circular reasoning. You are assuming it is required first, and then using that assumption to prove that it is required.

The question remains, how is the sabbath moral?

The first question is where did God force Sabbath keeping?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

After His death, we see that Yeshua's Apostles followed His example in their observance of the Sabbath day. “Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures” (Acts 17:2). “And [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4).

Today most 'Christians' who profess to follow Christ Jesus do not follow the example set by Him and His apostles. Most Christians don't realize that the rejection of the Sabbath as the Christian day of worship did not start until almost 300 years after Yeshua's ministry on earth. The substitution of Sunday for the Sabbath was orchestrated by the Roman emperor Constantine.

Thus, we have to conclude that the Sabbath day was not a ceremonial law. All Ten Commandments are moral laws ... except to those Christians who believe they are ceremonial laws.

​

1 Corinthians 9:20 refutes your first paragraph.

Constantine took credit for what had already been put in place and this refutes the 2nd paragraph.

Therefore the third, as a summary, is refuted also.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

The first question is where did God force Sabbath keeping?

By commanding to stone people who break it

 

[visionary]

Do we have a moral obligation to obey God, worship God according to His commands?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There is no keeping of the sabbath unless one actually stays in their tent one day out of 7 and only eats the heavenly manna. There's 1 point for the fast tho

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Here is Merriam-Websters #1 definition of "moral" - of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior. Our Creator gave mankind the Sabbath (Mark 2:27). He commanded it be kept holy. To not keep it holy is immoral because that is contrary to right behavior. Resting on Wednesday is not immoral since Yahweh never said we couldn't rest on Wednesday. He said we are to rest on the 7th day and not do any work. Therefore, to work on the 7th day is immoral.


You took my words out of context. I said it was immoral to not give Him glory "for His work of creation by the means He has chosen to receive such glory". The only command He gave mankind in order for us to remember His work of creation was the Sabbath.


Again you took my words out of context. Yahweh gave no other sign through which we are to know that it is "YHWH" that sanctifies us:

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am YHWH that doth sanctify you.
​

I am not trying to prove it is required. It is beyond question that it is required. I am proving it is immoral to break it.

Your reasons summarised in short:
1. He commanded it
2. It is the only sign relating to sanctification

Point 1: he commanded circumcision
Point 2: circumcision was the only sign relating to removing the flesh/sinful-nature

Again, these are not reasons. You are arguing, God commanded therefore it's moral. But God commanded many things that we are not obliged to keep today such as circumcision.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Do we have a moral obligation to obey God, worship God according to His commands?

Our moral obligation is to love.
From love we live.
From love we worship.
From love we walk with Him in intimacy.
From love we learn.
From love.

 

[visionary]

Our moral obligation is to love.
From love we live.
From love we worship.
From love we walk with Him in intimacy.
From love we learn.
From love.

Thank you... so worship is a moral obligation to God

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Thank you... so worship is a moral obligation to God

Nope. Worship comes forth from a heart of love. If worship is morally obligated the whole reason for our existence fails. God created free agents who would choose to worship Him. Worship from obligation is not true worship.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Now please don't avoid the question by deflecting to John 14:15. I am asking how the Sabbath is moral. Your answer so far is because of where it is placed, which isn't a reason at all.

Asking about the first 3 commandments also avoids the question. Let me explain, could I not say that first 3 commandments are about God because God is a trinity. The 4th represents all symbolic and ceremonial law pointing to Jesus, and the final 6 are about man because the Hebrew number for man is 6?

Placement is not a reason.

I made no assertion regarding where it is placed but you seem to want to. My point, which you seem to want to avoid, is all the other Commandments are in place and we follow them, even the first 3 which are not "moral" laws as you suggest, yet we still follow them. Why. Because we love God. John 14:15 is not a deflection...

 

[Joshua_5]

Be nice Joshua not rude... they believe in a renewed covenant... which is new in a sense

I don't think it was rude, but that wasn't my intention, if it was.

Renewed isn't really new, though, is it? Either way, its not the Renewed Testament. Perhaps those who believe it is should change their bibles.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Hahaaha first you say this

I made no assertion regarding where it is placed

Then you say this

all the other Commandments are in place and we follow them

I'll say again, just because the Sabbath is placed within the ten commandments doesn't mean anything.

 

[gadar perets]

There is no keeping of the sabbath unless one actually stays in their tent one day out of 7 and only eats the heavenly manna. There's 1 point for the fast tho

So, what you are saying is that Messiah Yeshua sinned and did not keep the Sabbath since he not only did not eat manna, but also went out of a house on the Sabbath?

 

[gadar perets]

Your reasons summarised in short:
1. He commanded it
2. It is the only sign relating to sanctification

Point 1: he commanded circumcision
Point 2: circumcision was the only sign relating to removing the flesh/sinful-nature

Again, these are not reasons. You are arguing, God commanded therefore it's moral. But God commanded many things that we are not obliged to keep today such as circumcision.

Now you are changing the discussion to whether or not we are obliged to keep the Sabbath. Please show me a command from the Father, Son or any Apostle telling us we are not to keep the Sabbath.

 

[gadar perets]

Nope. Worship comes forth from a heart of love. If worship is morally obligated the whole reason for our existence fails. God created free agents who would choose to worship Him. Worship from obligation is not true worship.

True worship bears the fruit of obedience out of love. I obey the Sabbath command because I love Yahweh. My worship of Him cannot exclude obeying His Sabbath commandment or else it is not true worship or true love. Since the Sabbath is truth, we MUST worship Him by keeping it holy. Your only defense is to prove believers in Yeshua do not have to keep the Sabbath. Proceed.

 

[visionary]

Hahaaha first you say this
Then you say this

I'll say again, just because the Sabbath is placed within the ten commandments doesn't mean anything.

God does something as monumental as write with His own finger in stone, and it means nothing?

 

[gadar perets]

I'll say again, just because the Sabbath is placed within the ten commandments doesn't mean anything.

Actually, it does mean something. All ten were put on tables of stone as a sign that they are immutable. They were then written on hearts and minds of NC believers.