Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[TheMissingRib]

That's okay sir
But please don't claim that you have shown us anything.

You can announce that you have done this or you have done that but if the other party disagrees than you haven't done all that you claimed

I didn't claim anything, I quoted scriptures, the Word of God, scroll up and read it.

I also asked, which scripture do you disagree with?

 

[miknik5]

Therefore please let me know when you can wash someone for those who have been washed know they have been washed

And that not by the hands of men

I didn't claim anything, I quoted scriptures, the Word of God, scroll up and read it.

I also asked, which scripture do you disagree with?

so did I and I told you just quoting a portion not understanding the WHOLE STORY and neglecting other passages is providing half the truth

 

[miknik5]

This is what I disagree with;

That Judas was a true apostle sent in the POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT to testify as HIS WITNESSES to the TRUTH of THE RISEN LORD

 

[TheMissingRib]

so did I and I told you just quoting a portion not understanding the WHOLE STORY and neglecting other passages is providing half the truth

The Word of God was quoted in context, nothing added, nothing taken away. Jesus doesn't lie. The Word of God says what it means and means what it says. Other passages and scriptures have been quoted in this thread by "LoveofTruth" addressing the same issues, nothing has been neglected, you neglect to read it, as it simply reads.

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

 

[miknik5]

The Word of God was quoted in context, nothing added, nothing taken away. Jesus doesn't lie. The Word of God says what it means and means what it says. Other passages and scriptures have been quoted in this thread by "LoveofTruth" addressing the same issues, nothing has been neglected, you neglect to read it, as it simply reads.

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

I don't think that LovedTruth agrees with you. Though you imagine that she does

 

[Uber Genius]

If you look at the context of that, Jesus going to preach to the spirits in prison, you will discover that it is not 'dead' human beings, but the ones who in Noah's day left their place in heavenly places to mix with the daughters of men.

And I think 'preach' in that case, is to declare. He is declaring His victory over sin and His righteousness to save His children and be their Savior.

Certainly that is the case although it may be not just nephilim spirits, but other dead spirits, see below.

If you look at the context of that, Jesus going to preach to the spirits in prison, you will discover that it is not 'dead' human beings, but the ones who in Noah's day left their place in heavenly places to mix with the daughters of men.

And I think 'preach' in that case, is to declare. He is declaring His victory over sin and His righteousness to save His children and be their Savior.

This is reading into the passage.

Ellicott's Commentary on the passage says:

"He gave proof of the new powers of purely spiritual action thus acquired by going off to the place, or state, in which other disembodied spirits were (who would have been incapable of receiving direct impressions from Him had He not Himself been in the purely spiritual condition), and conveyed to them certain tidings: He “preached” unto them. What was the substance of this preaching we are not here told, the word itself (which is not the same as, e.g., in 1Peter 1:25) only means to publish or proclaim like a crier or herald; and as the spirits are said to have been disobedient and in prison, some have thought that Christ went to proclaim to them the certainty of their damnation! The notion has but to be mentioned to be rejected with horror; but it may be pointed out also that in 1Peter 4:6, which refers back to this passage, it is distinctly called a “gospel;” and it would be too grim to call that a gospel which (in Calvin’s words) “made it more clear and patent to them that they were shut out from all salvation!” He broughtgood tidings, therefore, of some kind to the “prison” and the spirits in it. And this “prison” must not be understood (with Bp. Browne, Articles, p. 95) as merely “a place of safe keeping,” where good spirits might be as well as bad, though etymologically this is imaginable. The word occurs thirty-eight times in the New Testament in the undoubted sense of a “prison,” and not once in that of a place of protection, though twice (Revelation 18:2) it is used in the derived sense of “a cage.”

"What, then, does this tell us about where Jesus was on Holy Saturday? Based on Jesus’s words to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, some Christians believe that after his death, Jesus’s soul went to heaven to be in the presence of the Father. But Luke 23:43 doesn’t say that Jesus would be in the presence of God; it says he would be in the presence of the thief (“Today you will bewith me in Paradise”), and based on the Old Testament and Luke 16, it seems likely that the now-repentant thief would be at Abraham’s side, a place of comfort and rest for the righteous dead, which Jesus here calls “Paradise.”

Following his death for sin, then, Jesus journeys to Hades, to the City of Death, and rips its gates off the hinges. He liberates Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, John the Baptist, and the rest of the Old Testament faithful, ransoming them from the power of Sheol (Psalm 49:15; 86:13; 89:48). They had waited there for so long, not having received what was promised, so that their spirits would be made perfect along with the saints of the new covenant (Hebrews 11:39–40; 12:23)."
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/he-descended-into-hell

While these two as well as the majority of the Church Fathers and Reformers would see Jesus preaching to all in Sheol both those in Abraham's bosom and those in torment, I made my context clear by stating,:

"We find those who had faith in God, and we find those who were described as the remnant, but where were they after they died? In heaven?"

You didn't address the issue I raised. Even if we take the narrower meaning as you suggest, it does nothing to Jesus telling the man on the cross he would be with him in "paradise" not "heaven."

Many would not consider Abraham or Samuel or the thief on the cross next to Jesus "saved" until they are preached to by Christ and he overcomes deaths reign by the presenting of his offering in the Temple in Heaven that corresponds with the outpouring of the HS on Pentecost.

Point is no one needs to defend the "Judas was saved and lost his salvation" approach to counter OSAS.

Historical treatments of the data for freewill to apostatize, or persevere, and reward going to those that persevere, and examples of the people like Demas and in Heb 6:4 and passages about names "blotted out of the book of life," are traditional methods of defending the arminian/molinist position.

 

[miknik5]

Certainly that is the case although it may be not just nephilim spirits, but other dead spirits, see below.


This is reading into the passage.

Ellicott's Commentary on the passage says:

"He gave proof of the new powers of purely spiritual action thus acquired by going off to the place, or state, in which other disembodied spirits were (who would have been incapable of receiving direct impressions from Him had He not Himself been in the purely spiritual condition), and conveyed to them certain tidings: He “preached” unto them. What was the substance of this preaching we are not here told, the word itself (which is not the same as, e.g., in 1Peter 1:25) only means to publish or proclaim like a crier or herald; and as the spirits are said to have been disobedient and in prison, some have thought that Christ went to proclaim to them the certainty of their damnation! The notion has but to be mentioned to be rejected with horror; but it may be pointed out also that in 1Peter 4:6, which refers back to this passage, it is distinctly called a “gospel;” and it would be too grim to call that a gospel which (in Calvin’s words) “made it more clear and patent to them that they were shut out from all salvation!” He broughtgood tidings, therefore, of some kind to the “prison” and the spirits in it. And this “prison” must not be understood (with Bp. Browne, Articles, p. 95) as merely “a place of safe keeping,” where good spirits might be as well as bad, though etymologically this is imaginable. The word occurs thirty-eight times in the New Testament in the undoubted sense of a “prison,” and not once in that of a place of protection, though twice (Revelation 18:2) it is used in the derived sense of “a cage.”

"What, then, does this tell us about where Jesus was on Holy Saturday? Based on Jesus’s words to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, some Christians believe that after his death, Jesus’s soul went to heaven to be in the presence of the Father. But Luke 23:43 doesn’t say that Jesus would be in the presence of God; it says he would be in the presence of the thief (“Today you will bewith me in Paradise”), and based on the Old Testament and Luke 16, it seems likely that the now-repentant thief would be at Abraham’s side, a place of comfort and rest for the righteous dead, which Jesus here calls “Paradise.”

Following his death for sin, then, Jesus journeys to Hades, to the City of Death, and rips its gates off the hinges. He liberates Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, John the Baptist, and the rest of the Old Testament faithful, ransoming them from the power of Sheol (Psalm 49:15; 86:13; 89:48). They had waited there for so long, not having received what was promised, so that their spirits would be made perfect along with the saints of the new covenant (Hebrews 11:39–40; 12:23)."
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/he-descended-into-hell

Oops. I spoke too soon

Yes HE led captivity captive in HIS TRAIN.
And took back the keys to hades and death

 

[miknik5]

HE had to descend so as to ascend so as to fill all things so as to have preeminence over all things whether in heaven whether on earth or whether under the earth as the first and before all things created

 

[miknik5]

K

Certainly that is the case although it may be not just nephilim spirits, but other dead spirits, see below.


This is reading into the passage.

Ellicott's Commentary on the passage says:

"He gave proof of the new powers of purely spiritual action thus acquired by going off to the place, or state, in which other disembodied spirits were (who would have been incapable of receiving direct impressions from Him had He not Himself been in the purely spiritual condition), and conveyed to them certain tidings: He “preached” unto them. What was the substance of this preaching we are not here told, the word itself (which is not the same as, e.g., in 1Peter 1:25) only means to publish or proclaim like a crier or herald; and as the spirits are said to have been disobedient and in prison, some have thought that Christ went to proclaim to them the certainty of their damnation! The notion has but to be mentioned to be rejected with horror; but it may be pointed out also that in 1Peter 4:6, which refers back to this passage, it is distinctly called a “gospel;” and it would be too grim to call that a gospel which (in Calvin’s words) “made it more clear and patent to them that they were shut out from all salvation!” He broughtgood tidings, therefore, of some kind to the “prison” and the spirits in it. And this “prison” must not be understood (with Bp. Browne, Articles, p. 95) as merely “a place of safe keeping,” where good spirits might be as well as bad, though etymologically this is imaginable. The word occurs thirty-eight times in the New Testament in the undoubted sense of a “prison,” and not once in that of a place of protection, though twice (Revelation 18:2) it is used in the derived sense of “a cage.”

"What, then, does this tell us about where Jesus was on Holy Saturday? Based on Jesus’s words to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, some Christians believe that after his death, Jesus’s soul went to heaven to be in the presence of the Father. But Luke 23:43 doesn’t say that Jesus would be in the presence of God; it says he would be in the presence of the thief (“Today you will bewith me in Paradise”), and based on the Old Testament and Luke 16, it seems likely that the now-repentant thief would be at Abraham’s side, a place of comfort and rest for the righteous dead, which Jesus here calls “Paradise.”

Following his death for sin, then, Jesus journeys to Hades, to the City of Death, and rips its gates off the hinges. He liberates Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, John the Baptist, and the rest of the Old Testament faithful, ransoming them from the power of Sheol (Psalm 49:15; 86:13; 89:48). They had waited there for so long, not having received what was promised, so that their spirits would be made perfect along with the saints of the new covenant (Hebrews 11:39–40; 12:23)."
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/he-descended-into-hell

While these two as well as the majority of the Church Fathers and Reformers would see Jesus preaching to all in Sheol both those in Abraham's bosom and those in torment, I made my context clear by stating,:

"We find those who had faith in God, and we find those who were described as the remnant, but where were they after they died? In heaven?"

You didn't address the issue I raised. Even if we take the narrower meaning as you suggest, it does nothing to Jesus telling the man on the cross he would be with him in "paradise" not "heaven."

Many would not consider Abraham or Samuel or the thief on the cross next to Jesus "saved" until they are preached to by Christ and he overcomes deaths reign by the presenting of his offering in the Temple in Heaven that corresponds with the outpouring of the HS on Pentecost.

Point is no one needs to defend the "Judas was saved and lost his salvation" approach to counter OSAS.

Historical treatments of the data for freewill to apostatize, or persevere, and reward going to those that persevere, and examples of the people like Demas and in Heb 6:4 and passages about names "blotted out of the book of life," are traditional methods of defending the arminian/molinist position.

im not sure what the last sentence of your post means

 

[TheMissingRib]

By the way, its "LoveofTruth" not LovedTruth, you can't even get that right lol

"LoveofTruth" agrees with the Word of God, he loves Truth. "LoveofTruth" doesn't have to agree with me, he is free to admonish me himself, if he chooses to do so.

 

[sdowney717]

Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. Paul does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul suggests here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit in Matthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.

Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here.

Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong.

Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testament references.

The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews?

This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection.

It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection.

There are some serious contradictions in these three sources.

We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.

One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple and had not been for over 200 years. They were replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.

Paul wrote this letter mentioning Christ's betrayal. Paul was taught by the Holy Spirit and would have known the truth.

1 Corinthians 11:22-26New King James Version (NKJV)
22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Institution of the Lord’s Supper
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

 

[miknik5]

By the way, its "LoveofTruth" not LovedTruth, you can't even get that right lol

"LoveofTruth" agrees with the Word of God, he loves Truth. "LoveofTruth" doesn't have to agree with me, he is free to admonish me himself, if he chooses to do so.

Okay

Does this somehow add to the discussion?

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is reading into the passage. Ellicott's Commentary on the passage says:

"He gave proof of the new powers of purely spiritual action thus acquired by going off to the place, or state, in which other disembodied spirits were (who would have been incapable of receiving direct impressions from Him had He not Himself been in the purely spiritual condition), and conveyed to them certain tidings: He “preached” unto them. What was the substance of this preaching we are not here told, the word itself (which is not the same as, e.g., in 1Peter 1:25) only means to publish or proclaim like a crier or herald; and as the spirits are said to have been disobedient and in prison, some have thought that Christ went to proclaim to them the certainty of their damnation! The notion has but to be mentioned to be rejected with horror; but it may be pointed out also that in 1Peter 4:6, which refers back to this passage, it is distinctly called a “gospel;” and it would be too grim to call that a gospel which (in Calvin’s words) “made it more clear and patent to them that they were shut out from all salvation!” He broughtgood tidings, therefore, of some kind to the “prison” and the spirits in it. And this “prison” must not be understood (with Bp. Browne, Articles, p. 95) as merely “a place of safe keeping,” where good spirits might be as well as bad, though etymologically this is imaginable. The word occurs thirty-eight times in the New Testament in the undoubted sense of a “prison,” and not once in that of a place of protection, though twice (Revelation 18:2) it is used in the derived sense of “a cage.”

I think the text in red totally agrees with what I said. The word used in Greek can have several meanings.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Many would not consider Abraham or Samuel or the thief on the cross next to Jesus "saved" until they are preached to by Christ and he overcomes deaths reign by the presenting of his offering in the Temple in Heaven that corresponds with the outpouring of the HS on Pentecost.

Point is no one needs to defend the "Judas was saved and lost his salvation" approach to counter OSAS.

Historical treatments of the data for freewill to apostatize, or persevere, and reward going to those that persevere, and examples of the people like Demas and in Heb 6:4 and passages about names "blotted out of the book of life," are traditional methods of defending the arminian/molinist position.

Actually the Bible is very specific that Abraham had righteousness imputed to him because of his faith. Abraham is the father of all those who have faith in Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Point is no one needs to defend the "Judas was saved and lost his salvation" approach to counter OSAS.

Historical treatments of the data for freewill to apostatize, or persevere, and reward going to those that persevere, and examples of the people like Demas and in Heb 6:4 and passages about names "blotted out of the book of life," are traditional methods of defending the arminian/molinist position.

I believe OSAS and I don't think Judas was ever saved or really believed that Jesus was God in the first place.

So, I'm not really sure what you are saying is against OSAS.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Word of God was quoted in context, nothing added, nothing taken away. Jesus doesn't lie. The Word of God says what it means and means what it says. Other passages and scriptures have been quoted in this thread by "LoveofTruth" addressing the same issues, nothing has been neglected, you neglect to read it, as it simply reads.

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

Notice above the words 'that he might'. They were being prepared for this for after Christ's death.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, it is, and if you agree with it, then you also believe in salvation by works. There may indeed be other points I'm missing, but this isn't one of them.

We are saved by Grace through faith, Jesus Died on the cross for our sins and was buried and rose again it is Gods work for us and in us that saves us.

Do you consider that we are saved by God's works?. So in some sense we are saved by works, just not ours. And if God works in us to will and to do and make us perfect unto every good work, then we are being saved also as we abide in this work in us.

Show me your faith without God working in you and I will show you my faith by God working in me, as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without Gods Spirit in us is dead also.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It wouldn't surprise me if Judas was a completely fictional character, an archetype of the 'unfaithful Jew' (his name in Hebrew is Judah.) This steroptype would fit nicely in the polemical war between Gentile Christians and the Jewish people that was underway early in Christian history.

No he was a real person. Luke said he didn't follow or make up fables. These are accurate accounts of things .

 

[Uber Genius]

I think the text in red totally agrees with what I said. The word used in Greek can have several meanings.

Did your read it?

Elliott says, "...to have been disobedient and in prison, some have thought that Christ went to proclaim to them the certainty of their damnation! The notion has but to be mentioned to be REJECTED WITH HORROR; but it may be pointed out also that in1Peter 4:6, which refers back to thispassage, it is distinctly called a “gospel;” and it would be too grim to call that agospel which (in Calvin’s words) “made it more clear and patent to them that they were shut out from all salvation!”

Elliott has rejected your reading of the text "with horror! "

That is hardly, "text agrees."

Of coarse greek words have many meanings, but the text is not one that supports your claim of Judas' salvation.

 

[Uber Genius]

I believe OSAS and I don't think Judas was ever saved or really believed that Jesus was God in the first place.

So, I'm not really sure what you are saying is against OSAS.

Mixed you up with "loveoftruth."