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Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

ToBeLoved

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So we would need a clear definition of soterion or sozo in relation to OT Jews.

We find those who had faith in God, and we find those who were described as the remnant, but where were they after they died? In heaven?

1 pet. 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


Which is include in the Apostle's Creed. "he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again."
If you look at the context of that, Jesus going to preach to the spirits in prison, you will discover that it is not 'dead' human beings, but the ones who in Noah's day left their place in heavenly places to mix with the daughters of men.

And I think 'preach' in that case, is to declare. He is declaring His victory over sin and His righteousness to save His children and be their Savior.
 
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TheMissingRib

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I never said its our works, but God's work on the cross through Jesus and his work in every believer at the new birth and on..this is all by faith on our part, by faith Christ dwells in our heart. I can do nothing outside of Christ, and there is no flesh to glory in God's presence, but I can DO ALL things through Christ who strengthens me

and read hebrews 3 again. it is by unbelief a believer can depart from the living God

never have a I heard any in your camp answer hebrews three and the truth against your doctrine. Look at vs 1 and vs 12 for starters.

and yes we shall be as the angels of God, i never said we are.

The clarity and warning of angels being with God and of God and sons of God and then they sinned and will end in the lake of fire. Shows that such a thing is possible.

I know that many in the eternal security camp have perhaps never even considered the angels that sinned and how they were perfect beings and good and then they fell and will end in the lake of fire. This is possible. an eternal being good perfect and of God can fall and go to the lake of fire. And as I showed these fallen angels are a warning to believers also not to follow their way in sin against God.

Interesting...hadn't considered this!
 
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Steve Petersen

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Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelve apostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”


Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him. Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give

7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

This event in Matthew and mark and other places is describing an event that started before jesus died on the cross Jesus told them not to go to the gentiles or samaritans in another place and so this was not after the resurrection. Although some principles can apply to all who are sent out for all times. This was an actual event were they went out and cast ou deals etc. We read about this story in Luke as well where Jesus sent men out to cast out devils etc and they cam back and rejoiced that the devils were subject unto them and jesus said don't rejoice in this but that their names were written in the Lambs bok of life. This shows that they were saved before the cross and yet many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him n John 6:66. This shows that some of those whom were once in the book of life went away and lost salvation.

It wouldn't surprise me if Judas was a completely fictional character, an archetype of the 'unfaithful Jew' (his name in Hebrew is Judah.) This steroptype would fit nicely in the polemical war between Gentile Christians and the Jewish people that was underway early in Christian history.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Judas had free will to obey or disobey...

1Ti 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
What does this have to do with Judas at all?

Now think about this, Judas was dead before 1 Titus was even written, so this verse didn't pertain particularly to him. Also notice that it says "in latter times", this is clearly the last days.

So I don't see how the verse supports your position at all.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I never said its our works, but God's work on the cross through Jesus and his work in every believer at the new birth and on..this is all by faith on our part, by faith Christ dwells in our heart. I can do nothing outside of Christ, and there is no flesh to glory in God's presence, but I can DO ALL things through Christ who strengthens me

and read hebrews 3 again. it is by unbelief a believer can depart from the living God

never have a I heard any in your camp answer hebrews three and the truth against your doctrine. Look at vs 1 and vs 12 for starters.

and yes we shall be as the angels of God, i never said we are.

The clarity and warning of angels being with God and of God and sons of God and then they sinned and will end in the lake of fire. Shows that such a thing is possible.

I know that many in the eternal security camp have perhaps never even considered the angels that sinned and how they were perfect beings and good and then they fell and will end in the lake of fire. This is possible. an eternal being good perfect and of God can fall and go to the lake of fire. And as I showed these fallen angels are a warning to believers also not to follow their way in sin against God.
You obviously don't understand the Book of Hebrews if this is your explanation of Hebrews 3.

This was written to the Old Testament Hebrews/Israelite's who had a great reverence for Moses. What the verses are saying is that Jesus Christ is greater than even Moses.

You don't even understand what it is saying.
 
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TheMissingRib

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Please remember that those who "go out". By their "going out" make manifest that they were never with us

Judas "went out"
Those who want to leave HIM too, will make manifest that they were never with HIM to begin with

Judas transgressed...

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas BY TRANSGRESSION FELL fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas was WITH the other 12, he was COUNTED and "went out" WITH the other 11 apostles to cast out devils, heal the sick etc...

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.
 
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TheMissingRib

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Yes, it is, and if you agree with it, then you also believe in salvation by works. There may indeed be other points I'm missing, but this isn't one of them.

I agree with the Word of God, not your views or mans views.
 
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TheMissingRib

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What does this have to do with Judas at all?

Now think about this, Judas was dead before 1 Titus was even written, so this verse didn't pertain particularly to him. Also notice that it says "in latter times", this is clearly the last days.

So I don't see how the verse supports your position at all.

It has everything to do with the post!

Simple question...

Are you free to say "yes" or "no"?
 
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miknik5

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Judas transgressed...

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas BY TRANSGRESSION FELL fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas was WITH the other 12, he was COUNTED and "went out" WITH the other 11 apostles to cast out devils, heal the sick etc...

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.
And you don't think that mixed in amongst HIS SHEEP are those who don't know who and what they profess even as they profess outwardly THE NAME?

In the end when trouble comes it will be made manufes those who knew who and what they worship from those who simply did lip service to THE NAME
 
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miknik5

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Judas transgressed...

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas BY TRANSGRESSION FELL fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas was WITH the other 12, he was COUNTED and "went out" WITH the other 11 apostles to cast out devils, heal the sick etc...

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.
Judas place was serving himself first and he went out and above the MASTER
 
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TheMissingRib

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And you don't think that mixed in amongst HIS SHEEP are those who don't know who and what they profess even as they profess outwardly THE NAME?

In the end when trouble comes it will be made manufes those who knew who and what they worship from those who simply did lip service to THE NAME

Mik...

JUDAS was NOT mixed IN with HIS SHEEP (that is your personal interpretation and the Word of God is NOT up for personal interpretation)

Judas was ONE of the 12.... the SCRIPTURES (not my words) below CLEARLY STATE IT

I agree WITH the Word of God and the simplicity of the Gospel.

I've given you a clear answer from the Word of God, NOT my view, my thoughts or opinion.

WHICH part of the Word of God DO you disagree with?

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Judas was WITH the other 12, he was COUNTED and "went out" WITH the other 11 apostles to cast out devils, heal the sick etc...

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.
I don't know that this proves anything. They did not go out to preach,ect. until AFTER Christ's death.

Why do you think it is before Christ's death? What is your scripture for this?
 
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miknik5

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Mik...

JUDAS was NOT mixed IN with HIS SHEEP (that is your personal interpretation and the Word of God is NOT up for personal interpretation)

Judas was ONE of the 12.... the SCRIPTURES (not my words) below CLEARLY STATE IT

I agree WITH the Word of God and the simplicity of the Gospel.

I've given you a clear answer from the Word of God, NOT my view, my thoughts or opinion.

WHICH part of the Word of God DO you disagree with?

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Mar 3:16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
Mar 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.
Judas served his purpose sir. As a guide so that scripture forespoken concerning him might be fulfilled
 
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TheMissingRib

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I don't know that this proves anything. They did not go out to preach,ect. until AFTER Christ's death.

Why do you think it is before Christ's death? What is your scripture for this?

Loved...

This has already been shown to you in this thread. LoveofTruth has already raised this with you, over and over again. I am NOT going to get into a circular debate with you OVER this. You've already been shown in the scriptures. I've read all the posts.
 
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TheMissingRib

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Another thing that maybe you forgot?

HE already knew who it was who would betray HIM which is why HE said even before Judas went out to do the actual act that not all are clean

I didn't forget anything, you assume. You avoided the scriptures which clearly point out the answer.

I also won't go into a circular discussion with you over other points you raise, as a diversion to the issue, which has also been shown to you in scriptures by LoveofTruth. I've read all the posts.
 
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TheMissingRib

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I have no idea what question you are even asking. You need to be a little more specific.

The question is very clear and specific, you refuse to answer it, it requires a simple YES or NO.

Are you free to say "yes" or "no"?
 
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ToBeLoved

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The question is very clear and specific, you refuse to answer it, it requires a simple YES or NO.

Are you free to say "yes" or "no"?
I really have no idea what question you are asking. I'm sorry if you do not believe me. I think, you think you communicate much clearer than you actually do.
 
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TheMissingRib

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I really have no idea what question you are asking. I'm sorry if you do not believe me. I think, you think you communicate much clearer than you actually do.

When it comes to the Word of God, Let your "yes be yes" and your "no be no" anything else is from the devil.
 
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