To those who don't believe in eternal security...

[DingDing]

You give me a good reason to and I will.

Selah.

I doubt either I or God could give you a good enough reason.

 

[DingDing]

why not just answer the question, it's a valid question.

I agree.

 

[aiki]

Just a reminder, I am ignoring the flaming, eventually I will grow tired of it and report it.

Flaming? Here's some flaming for you:

"Come on...you can do better than simply trying to reinvent scripture."

Mocking. Accusing me of purposefully twisting Scripture.

"At least some OSASers are brave enough to take it out of context not just rewrite it to suit their belief."

Insinuating I am coward. Ad hominem.

"I'm not sure you understand how exegesis and biblical study in general works. I think you might benefit from a class on how to study scripture for it's intended meaning."

Patronizing and insinuating a personal deficiency.

"So you have knowledge of how to study scripture and interpret it accordingly but lack the ability to put it into practise by your own argument...this is going to be fun...I am always interested in learning something new. I'll try to put it into practise not just have knowledge of it like you claim is part of Heb. 6"

Mocking sarcasm.

"And before you try the side step of claiming that is not your claim,"

Insinuating a deceitful/cowardly motive/strategy.

"shame on you for changing what it says so that you can justify your ideas"

Personal attack.

there are tares in the church...duh, we all know there are tares in the church

Insinuating I'm stupid.

I quoted these...unpleasant remarks of yours, not because they offend me, but to demonstrate that you are guilty of the very sort of thing which you protest. Feel free to write as you are inclined to, be as rude as you wish, just don't protest the very sort of nastiness of which you are guilty.

I Peter 4:13; Romans 8:17 both indicate that it is the true believer that shares in or partakes of or is partnered with the HS.

Actually, 1Peter 4:13 is speaking, not of partaking in God or the Holy Spirit, but in the sufferings of Christ. Nothing is said at all of the Holy Spirit in this verse.

Romans 8:17 is very similar to the passage in first Peter in that it speaks of sharing in the suffering of Christ. There is, however, no mention of the Holy Spirit in this verse, either.

For someone who has been very concerned over sticking precisely to what a verse says, these choices of verses and your assertions about them are quite inconsistent.

that wasn't the claim you were asked to evidence....see, here you are talking about God as creator. the Heb. passage specifies HOLY SPIRIT which was given to believers not the unsaved.

You weren't this...careful when you offered those two verses at the beginning of your post. You asserted both of them were speaking of partaking of the Holy Spirit when neither of them even mentioned him. As I said, inconsistent.

that isn't even close to what I said...I said in fact that context and literary rules are vital to our understanding...

I never said that this is what you'd said. I was pointing out that sticking strictly to what a verse says in an effort to limit another's interpretation of it ignores the fact that what is said (or written) is not always all that is meant.

you are trying to use it to belittle me

Not belittle you; challenge your strategy of focusing on the words themselves at the expense of their implicit meanings.

What you have failed to do is show any reason to conclude that a non believer can share in, partake of, or partner with the HS.

Nope. I have done exactly what you say I haven't:

"Whether it is "partakers of" or "sharers in" the sense remains fundamentally the same. Sharing in what the Holy Spirit is doing is to share in Him. The "sharing in/of" the Spirit may not be as full or as intimate as that of the genuine believer, but there is a sharing in Him nonetheless."

And:

I will reiterate here that we all of us - believer and non-believer - are fundamentally connected to God who is the Sustainer of our existence. We all partake of Him every moment of every day. Without Him, none of us would exist. As Paul wrote, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being." So, the idea that we can partake of God without being spiritually-regenerate is not a controversial idea at all and supports my reading of Hebrews 6:4.

These are reasons enough for me to conclude what I do about the Hebrews 6 passage. You don't have to agree with them, but your assertion that I have "failed to show any reason to conclude that a non believer can share in, partake of, or partner with the HS" is simply false. I have done, as the quotations above demonstrate.

See, your claim is that the one who is partaking/sharing/partners of the HS is the unbeliever. So far you haven't even tried to evidence that claim.

Yes, I have tried:

"Paul the apostle declared,

Acts 17:27-28
27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'

Even the unsaved "live, and move, and have their being" in God. Inasmuch as they do, they partake of Him as the sustaining Power of their lives. Now, they don't experience God the way the born-again do, but the unsaved are just as reliant upon, just as sustained by, God as the saved folk are and so partake of/share in Him, too. In light of this, and what Christ teaches in Matthew 5:45 and in Matthew 13:24-30, my reading of Hebrews 6:4 is hardly controversial."

If this isn't "trying to evidence my claim," what is? It seems pretty clear that you just cannot hear any view other than your own.

I am truly interested in what passages you want to offer to show the context of both the passage and the totality of scripture that says that a non believer can share/partake/partner with the HS.

See above - and my previous posts.

see, here you are talking about God as creator. the Heb. passage specifies HOLY SPIRIT which was given to believers not the unsaved.

The Holy Spirit is God. He is as much the Creator, being a member of the triune God, as Christ the Son or the Father is. In any case, my point was to show that Scripture teaches that even non-believers have a fundamental and profound connection to their Maker. They aren't born again, they aren't spiritually regenerate, but they partake of God nonetheless. Why, then, this refusal on your part to acknowledge that the unsaved may partake of the Spirit in a similar fashion as they participate in the life of the Church? Yes, the saved partake differently of the Spirit than the unsaved do, but the Spirit is not totally removed from the lost. At the very least, the unsaved share in the Spirit when they come under His conviction of them.

This does NOT do that, it doesn't even come close...

I disagree.

if I didn't know scripture and the witness of the HS within I might have been convinced by the slight of hand you did here.

Another insinuation of dishonesty? What was that you were saying about getting tired of being flamed?

I called it what I did because you have failed to provide any evidence to suggest that your version is the intent of the passage.

False. See above.

See how important it becomes to be able to back up your claims with good exegesis...it's the difference between a correct interpretation and a flawed one.

It is unfortunate that you can write these words and yet not really understand them...

evidence your position that those that are enlightened, tasting heavenly gifts, partaking of the HS etc. are the unbelievers. The only thing you offered us was a passage about tares among the wheat which is not addressing the issue at all

I think it is, which is why I cited it. As I have explained a number of times now, tares share in the life of the Church and in so doing have the experience of a tare among the wheat that is described in Hebrews 6. See my earlier posts.

clearly if you really believe this and it isn't just your attempt to flame me you have not read for comprehension anything I have said

And I think you have done precisely the same thing to me.

you are refusing to address what I said which is a form of flaming...sorry, you loss.

I am addressing your misrepresentation of my comments. If you don't like it when I do, don't misrepresent what I write.

and yet the text says they are enlightened and you said that they are the unbelievers who just have knowledge of....

Again, this is not what I wrote. I have clarified my meaning quite thoroughly and you still refuse to abandon this false assertion. Here's some of what I've said on this head:

"No, I did not. That was your misconstruction of my comments.
What I wrote was:

"There is no enlightenment without knowledge." (post #176)

As you can see, I did not say knowledge was enlightenment. What I did say is that knowledge is necessary to enlightenment.

And:

I have known many unsaved people who feared God and understood the Gospel quite well. They could talk quite expertly of many Christians doctrines. Clearly, they had some illumination, some understanding, of the truths of the faith even though they were not saved - just like the people Hebrews 6 describes.

Clearly, I have not asserted that non-believers "just have knowledge."

no, you presented a portion of the definitions after I present the whole definition then showed your chosen version of the definition to justify your position...

False. Are you not aware that several Bible versions use "share" or " who have shared in" in place of "partaker"? Are the translators of these versions guilty of mishandling Scripture because they don't use the "whole definition" of the term offered in a lexicon? Obviously not. Strong's Dictionary offers a variety of possible meanings. You chose one of those meanings, I chose another. I don't see that you have any greater justification for your choice than I have for mine.

nothing you presented shows a superficial or very limited experience except for your opinion.

False. I offered you Strong's definitions and argued for why the one I chose is warranted:

"No, I'm not. Strong's indicates:

a primary verb; to taste; by implication to eat; figurative to experience (good or ill) :- eat, taste.

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary."

And:

"I don't think the emphasis in the use of the word "taste" is "ingestion" but "superficiality of experience." We say things like, "I had just a taste," to indicate the small degree of our experience of something. Compare "tasted" to how Paul describes the new birth:

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

This sounds nothing like a "taste" of Christ. Paul describes a total and fundamental transformation that "tasted" does not communicate at all. So, again, your choice to emphasize "taking in" as the correct way to read "tasted" is a very weak reading."

My reasoning here is sound and it works directly from the definitions offered in a Bible lexicon and from common usage.

We need true exegesis not proof texting.

Then why don't you try some true exegesis?

And just for the record, you would do well to refain from trying to call me a liar, it is a personal attack and is a false witness of my and my character as well.

Hey, take your own advice. You have insinuated dishonesty on my part a number of times now.

but not in the life of Christ and the HS that dwells within which I showed you ages ago and you refused to rebut other than to make another false accusation of how I am representing you.

But, as tares in the Church, they do "partake" in the life of Christ and the Spirit - just in a second hand way, which has always been what I have contended. And it is because they have this mere "taste" of Him, this second-hand, superficial experience of God, of the Holy Spirit, that they fall away.

but by definition both in the Lexicon and in Websters as well as your previous comment above, if all they have is knowledge and no life experience of the Christ and the indwelling HS they are not enlightened....

Now you're fooling around with your own definitions. Webster's said:

1. : freed from ignorance and misinformation <an enlightened people> <an enlightened time>
   
   
2. 2: based on full comprehension of the problems involved <issued an enlightened ruling>

"Freed from ignorance" is another way of saying, "Has gained knowledge." One can only be freed from ignorance by obtaining knowledge. This accords very well with what I've said. "Based on full comprehension of the problems involved" speaks to understanding as well as knowledge which I have explained is evidenced by tares in the Church quite often and sometimes to a very high degree. So, on both counts tares qualify as enlightened by Webster's definitions.

As for your assertion that life experience of Christ and the indwelling Spirit constitutes enlightenment, I respond as I have before that the passage in Hebrews 6 does not mandate such enlightenment but may be legitimately read as referring to the sort of intellectual enlightenment of the truths and doctrines of the Christian faith that many tares exhibit. This is reinforced by the use of the term "tasted" which plainly communicates a superficial and/or limited experience.

see how that works, when someone believes something that is not true, they catch themselves in trying to argue their way out of it and I don't have to do anything but show scripture....it's really a facinating phenomena...

Especially when you are missing entirely that what you think you are seeing others do you are doing yourself.

I didn't say they did, what I said is that they how that ignorance is a non believer thing and not something for the believer...

I know many ignorant believers. Clearly, ignorance is not only on the part of non-believers.

iow's I showed through the totality of scripture that enlightened ones by definition are believers and those that are ignorant are unbelievers.

You keep using this "totality of Scripture" phrase but you have yet to actually offer the totality of Scripture on anything. You would have to go through every single verse or passage in the Bible that speaks in any way to the issue we are discussing to legitimately claim you have offered the totality of Scripture on the issue. You have barely begun to do so.

You see, these two scriptures equate lack of ignorance to salvation...another way to say the same thing is that the ignorant remain unsaved.

In some instances, yes. Romans 1 indicates a different reason, as does John 3:19, 20. Ignorance is by no means the only reason people do not come to a saving faith in Christ. As I have pointed out, many unbelievers in the Church are very well-informed about the faith.

In Heb. we see that the ones being talked about falling away are not ignorant but enlightened.

Right. Not all unbelievers are ignorant. Tares are sometimes very well-versed in God's truth.

According to the totality of scripture as Eph. and Hosea testify, that means they are true believers. Boom...that is how you use the totality of scriptur to make your case.

Oh, dear. You really don't know how to properly exegete Scripture...

we are partaking of the HS which you have not yet shown is given to non believers to partake of....the HS was given to believers only.

The Holy Spirit is given to the whole world, though not in the way he is given to believers:

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Here the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Here the Holy Spirit restrains the evil of mankind until he is taken out of the way in the Last Days.

So, no, the Holy Spirit is not exclusively given to Christians. He is given primarily and uniquely to God's children but not solely to them.

wow...let's explore that for a moment...

Yes, let's.

if I taste something and thus experience it, what am I doing? Please be careful in how you answer..remember it does NOT say "they just had a taste" It says they tasted...

If you taste something you are taking in a small portion of that thing.

but again, the taste talked about in. 6 is NOT Christ that is where enlightened comes in...

Not so. In Romans 8 Paul explicitly refers to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ. (Ro. 8:9)

the tasting is of heavenly gifts...you know the gifts that reside in heaven according to the Lexicon.

Which are, exactly?

So when you confuse the words and subjects like this it really is no wonder you have no idea what the text is saying as evidenced by the 4 criteria you were asked to use.

You are the one who is confusing words and subjects! See above.

See, if the taste was associated with the subject Christ you would be able to make this claim but the word taste is associated with the subject heavenly gift which is according to translation found in the Lexicon those things in heaven.

Is Christ not in heaven? Yes. Yes, he is. He is, in fact, seated at God's right hand as our Advocate.

The more you speak plainly about what you're thinking, the more you reveal some pretty poor handling of God's truth.

Selah.

 

[razzelflabben]

removing context does NOT make your case.

I quoted these...unpleasant remarks of yours, not because they offend me, but to demonstrate that you are guilty of the very sort of thing which you protest. Feel free to write as you are inclined to, be as rude as you wish, just don't protest the very sort of nastiness of which you are guilty.

I have said many kind things to you that you took out of context and twisted the meaning of and in that new meaning took offense that is on you my friend.

Actually, 1Peter 4:13 is speaking, not of partaking in God or the Holy Spirit, but in the sufferings of Christ. Nothing is said at all of the Holy Spirit in this verse.

yep...Instead, rejoice as you share in the sufferings of the Messiah, so that you may also rejoice with great joy at the revelation of His glory....and your point? The word in question when this was posted was partaking or sharing or partnering....so you see, it does apply when not taken out of context of our discussion.

Romans 8:17 is very similar to the passage in first Peter in that it speaks of sharing in the suffering of Christ. There is, however, no mention of the Holy Spirit in this verse, either.

see above...

For someone who has been very concerned over sticking precisely to what a verse says, these choices of verses and your assertions about them are quite inconsistent.

now, if you want to talk about partaking of the HS, then address the passages I posted in relation to that topic, otherwise your words have no meaning because they are removing context....

You weren't this...careful when you offered those two verses at the beginning of your post. You asserted both of them were speaking of partaking of the Holy Spirit when neither of them even mentioned him. As I said, inconsistent.

do you want some passages about the HS? You don't seem able to present any that defend your position...John 7:39; John 1:33 I could present many more but none of them say that partaking/sharing/partnering with the HS is something that a non believer can do. You have repeatedly been asked to evidence otherwise and always resort to some slight of hand like here where you take things out of context to make them into something they are not.

Not belittle you; challenge your strategy of focusing on the words themselves at the expense of their implicit meanings.

lol that is exactly what I have done, no need to challenge me to do what I have already done, your time would be better used if you actually challenge the conclusion not the method.

Nope. I have done exactly what you say I haven't:

"Whether it is "partakers of" or "sharers in" the sense remains fundamentally the same. Sharing in what the Holy Spirit is doing is to share in Him. The "sharing in/of" the Spirit may not be as full or as intimate as that of the genuine believer, but there is a sharing in Him nonetheless."

not the HS which is what I pointed out to you repeatedly and challenged you to evidence and your response was to change what you said. So, how about it, let's stick only to the "partaking in/with/of the HS"...we talked about how the word partaking means partner in the Lexicon but you want to add to that definition sharaing and partaking so that you have more play room, which I will allow since it does nothing to the end result of the discussion. Now...please show even one passage that shows where a non believer partakes/shares/partners with/in/of the HS....not God, not Christ, not the church, not what you call the heavenly gifts, but the HOLY SPIRIT Himself. The very same HS that is given to believers and not unbelievers.

And:

I will reiterate here that we all of us - believer and non-believer - are fundamentally connected to God who is the Sustainer of our existence. We all partake of Him every moment of every day. Without Him, none of us would exist. As Paul wrote, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being." So, the idea that we can partake of God without being spiritually-regenerate is not a controversial idea at all and supports my reading of Hebrews 6:4.

As I pointed out, that is not what the text says at all...in this explaination of your ideas you change HS to God which is not what the text says at all....

These are reasons enough for me to conclude what I do about the Hebrews 6 passage. You don't have to agree with them, but your assertion that I have "failed to show any reason to conclude that a non believer can share in, partake of, or partner with the HS" is simply false. I have done, as the quotations above demonstrate.

if you refuse to address the issue of the partaking of the HS as you are doing here, we are done....have a good day and I will be praying for you. See, changing the passage to read God rather than HS is not cool and I don't really wish to associate with someone who is so determined to have their way that they would change scripture just to make a point.

Yes, I have tried:

"Paul the apostle declared,

Acts 17:27-28
27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'

Even the unsaved "live, and move, and have their being" in God. Inasmuch as they do, they partake of Him as the sustaining Power of their lives. Now, they don't experience God the way the born-again do, but the unsaved are just as reliant upon, just as sustained by, God as the saved folk are and so partake of/share in Him, too. In light of this, and what Christ teaches in Matthew 5:45 and in Matthew 13:24-30, my reading of Hebrews 6:4 is hardly controversial."

If this isn't "trying to evidence my claim," what is? It seems pretty clear that you just cannot hear any view other than your own.

as I said the first time you posted this...that is not the question you are being asked. God as creator obviously is part of everyones life...but as the HS He is reserved for the believers and I have challenged you enough to show me wrong and you keep coming back to this....the real question at this time of the discussion is if you are so deceived you don't know the difference between the Creator God and the HS or if you do know and are too proud to confess that it requires a different answer on your part. Either way I will pray that you see what is being said by both God and myself. (before you take that out of context too...I am not saying I am right I am saying you are not understanding the difference and thus praying you have eyes to see that difference)

The Holy Spirit is God. He is as much the Creator, being a member of the triune God, as Christ the Son or the Father is. In any case, my point was to show that Scripture teaches that even non-believers have a fundamental and profound connection to their Maker. They aren't born again, they aren't spiritually regenerate, but they partake of God nonetheless. Why, then, this refusal on your part to acknowledge that the unsaved may partake of the Spirit in a similar fashion as they participate in the life of the Church? Yes, the saved partake differently of the Spirit than the unsaved do, but the Spirit is not totally removed from the lost. At the very least, the unsaved share in the Spirit when they come under His conviction of them.

yes dear, but God is not Christ and Christ is not the HS and the HS is not God and yet they are all one...iow's they each have a different relationship with us and the one in question at the moment is the relationship of the HS. Your trying to assert that the HS relationship with man is to the unbeliever but you fail to evidence this...why? Why would you refuse to evidence something you claim unless of course you can't evidence it because you are wrong?

And:

I have known many unsaved people who feared God and understood the Gospel quite well. They could talk quite expertly of many Christians doctrines. Clearly, they had some illumination, some understanding, of the truths of the faith even though they were not saved - just like the people Hebrews 6 describes.

Clearly, I have not asserted that non-believers "just have knowledge."

enlightenment as you have been shown means to free from ignorance...which is when I posted passages that show that ignorance is unbelief according to scripture...thus the absence of ignorance would be belief...to which you continued to accuse me of misrepresenting you when I pointed out that the passage in question says they are enlightened or without ignorance of or for repentance....notice that repentance here is also connected to enlightenment which is consistent with the passages I presented on the topic.

False. Are you not aware that several Bible versions use "share" or " who have shared in" in place of "partaker"? Are the translators of these versions guilty of mishandling Scripture because they don't use the "whole definition" of the term offered in a lexicon? Obviously not. Strong's Dictionary offers a variety of possible meanings. You chose one of those meanings, I chose another. I don't see that you have any greater justification for your choice than I have for mine.

what are you going on about...for the sake of moving the discussion forward I allowed you to interepret is share or partake and you still failed to make your case.

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

This sounds nothing like a "taste" of Christ. Paul describes a total and fundamental transformation that "tasted" does not communicate at all. So, again, your choice to emphasize "taking in" as the correct way to read "tasted" is a very weak reading."

again, old news, just repeating yourself without addressing anything I said is beyond tiring at this point...either address my rebuttal or stop posting we all know what you believe what we are interested in is what the rightly divided word of God says which requires discussion and study and more than you repeating what you think.

obviously you aren't going to offer an honest discussion that addresses the points I raise so moving on to someone who will

 

[aiki]

I have said many kind things to you that you took out of context and twisted the meaning of and in that new meaning took offense that is on you my friend.

Ah. This is pretty much what I expected you to say. "I'm rubber and you're glue..."

"Actually, 1Peter 4:13 is speaking, not of partaking in God or the Holy Spirit, but in the sufferings of Christ. Nothing is said at all of the Holy Spirit in this verse.


yep...Instead, rejoice as you share in the sufferings of the Messiah, so that you may also rejoice with great joy at the revelation of His glory....and your point?"

My comments above were in response to what you wrote:

"so, what do you then do with these passages...I Peter 4:13; Romans 8:17 both indicate that it is the true believer that shares in or partakes of or is partnered with the HS."

As I explain above, both verses do not indicate anything at all about partaking of the Holy Spirit. So you are quite mistaken in asserting that they do. Here are the verses you cited:

1 Peter 4:13
13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.

No mention of partaking of the Holy Spirit, only of Christ's sufferings.

Romans 8:17
17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

No mention of partaking of the Holy Spirit in this verse, either. The verse does, though, as I noted, speak of sharing in Christ's suffering. You get my point yet?

The word in question when this was posted was partaking or sharing or partnering....so you see, it does apply when not taken out of context of our discussion.

What are you talking about? This is pretty much nonsensical in light of what is in evidence above. You made a false assertion about a couple of verses and I showed that you did. Your comment here just looks like a weird attempt to deny that this happened.

do you want some passages about the HS?

I want you to be accurate about the things you claim about Scripture - just as you are demanding of me.

You don't seem able to present any that defend your position...

This is amusing coming from someone who just
offered two verses that don't say anything like you claimed they did.

we talked about how the word partaking means partner in the Lexicon but you want to add to that definition sharaing and partaking so that you have more play room, which I will allow since it does nothing to the end result of the discussion.

Please stop editorializing on my comments. It's petty and gives your words an ugly character.

"Sharing" as I pointed out, is a perfectly legitimate way of rendering "partaking." Both the definition from Strong's and many Bible versions render the word this way. Here are a few examples:

"...and have shared in the Holy Spirit," - Amplified Bible

"...become sharers in the Ruach HaKodesh," - Complete Jewish Bible

"...and have shared in the Holy Spirit," - ESV

"...who shared in the Holy Spirit," - MEV

"...who have shared in the Holy Spirit," - NIV

As you can see, it isn't that I "want to add to the definition" but that "sharing" is already part of the common definition which you seem strangely reluctant to acknowledge. And I can legitimately use this definition whether you "allow" it or not.

Now...please show even one passage that shows where a non believer partakes/shares/partners with/in/of the HS....not God, not Christ, not the church, not what you call the heavenly gifts, but the HOLY SPIRIT Himself. The very same HS that is given to believers and not unbelievers.

But here is a perfect example of you not hearing me. I have never contended that unbelievers share in the Holy Spirit in the same way as believers. As I have explained repeatedly, my view is that unbelievers have a second-hand and limited sharing in the Holy Spirit. Why, then, should I search for verses in the Bible that say that they have the same sharing in the Spirit that believers do? I don't believe that and have never indicated otherwise!

As I pointed out, that is not what the text says at all...in this explaination of your ideas you change HS to God which is not what the text says at all....

No, this is not what I have done. Look again at my words:

"...Paul wrote, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being." So, the idea that we can partake of God without being spiritually-regenerate is not a controversial idea at all and supports my reading of Hebrews 6:4."

So, where is this switch between God and Holy Spirit you say I made? All I say here is that the idea of non-believers partaking of God is uncontroversial which lends support to my reading of Hebrews 6:4. I make no "change" from God to the Holy Spirit. Just like those two verses you posted, you are making false claims about what is being said.

if you refuse to address the issue of the partaking of the HS as you are doing here, we are done....

Then I guess we're done. I can't help that you have made yourself blind to what I've actually been writing.

See, changing the passage to read God rather than HS is not cool

What passage? What change? Show me; don't just make the claim and hope no one notices you're wrong.

God as creator obviously is part of everyones life...but as the HS He is reserved for the believers and I have challenged you enough to show me wrong and you keep coming back to this....

Clearly, you made this comment before reading the whole of my last post. Later on in it I do show you wrong.

the real question at this time of the discussion is if you are so deceived you don't know the difference between the Creator God and the HS or if you do know and are too proud to confess that it requires a different answer on your part.

See? More ad hominem. You just can't seem to help yourself... Show me how what I said about each Person of the triune God participating in Creation is not true. Scripture refers to both Christ and the Holy Spirit as Creator, as well as God the Father:

Psalms 104:29-30
29 You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.
30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the earth.

Job 33:4
4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

So, what's all this about me being deceived about the difference between the Creator God and the Holy Spirit? All three Persons of the Trinity are held up in Scripture as having and exerting life-giving, Creator power. It seems I am clearer on what Scripture says in this regard than you are.

yes dear, but God is not Christ and Christ is not the HS and the HS is not God

I never said they were. Show me where I said that. You claim that this is what I said, but as I've shown above, your claims tend to be proven false.

All three Persons of the Trinity share a divine nature but they are distinct from one another, separate Persons fulfilling different roles.

Your trying to assert that the HS relationship with man is to the unbeliever but you fail to evidence this...why?

"Fail to evidence"? Nonsense. I have shown quite plainly from Scripture that the Holy Spirit does have a role to fulfill among the unsaved. Here, again, are the verses I cited and my comments about them:

"The Holy Spirit is given to the whole world, though not in the way he is given to believers:

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Here the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Here the Holy Spirit restrains the evil of mankind until he is taken out of the way in the Last Days.

So, no, the Holy Spirit is not exclusively given to Christians. He is given primarily and uniquely to God's children but not solely to them."

Your claim that I have "failed to evidence" is here - again - shown to be a false claim. Not only do I offer evidence but I do so with explicit declarations of Scripture.

You also refuse to acknowledge the distinction I make about the difference in the nature of the involvement of the Holy among the saved and unsaved. I am not claiming that the unsaved are indwelt by the Spirit as the saved are. But the Spirit does interact with the unsaved both in convicting them of sin and restraining their evil propensities.

which is when I posted passages that show that ignorance is unbelief according to scripture...

Another false claim. The passages only show a relationship between ignorance and unbelief; they do not conflate them as you are doing here and assert that ignorance is unbelief.

Ephesians 4:17-18
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;

So, where in these verses do you get the idea that "ignorance is unbelief"? These verses draw a connection between these things, but it doesn't indicate that ignorance and unbelief are one-and-the-same thing. Such an idea is entirely of your manufacture.

Hosea 4:6
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

Okay. So, where is this "ignorance is belief" stuff taught in this verse? Don't see it anywhere. Yes, the verse indicates that "lack of knowledge" results in destruction and rejection by God for the Israelites (not Christians). But where does the verse indicate that ignorance and belief are the same thing?

As I have demonstrated, when we look at the verses you cited, your claim that you have "posted passages that show that ignorance is unbelief according to scripture" is baloney. The verses indicate no such thing.

for the sake of moving the discussion forward I allowed you to interepret is share or partake and you still failed to make your case.

You haven't the power to "allow" anything. You are straight-out obliged by the common definition of the term "partake" in Strong's Dictionary to accept it. And as for "failing to make my case" I refer readers to what has transpired above.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

I doubt either I or God could give you a good enough reason.

Why's that?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think Y'SHUA said that even if someone came back from the dead,
something something....
i.e. someone would not listen.

Also,
if someone will not listen to MOSES,
they won't accept Y'SHUA MESSIAH.

Also,
something something..... (too much to bear, or something...)

 

[Wordkeeper]

It's clear, then, from my post that the spiritually regenerated are those who trust have faith, in God.

Most mainline churches will not say this, because they preach a risk free gospel: you are saved by faith, you have reservation in heaven for a beautiful afterlife, your present life will be dotted with good works as proof of the re energizing of you previously dead spirit.

Nothing in the teaching about how this is related to the promise to Abraham. That the world will be blessed by believers. That the lives of heroes (and heroines) of the faith mentioned in Hebrews 11 were dotted with life threatening acts, people like Moses, Rehab, etc. went out on a limb to demonstrate their faith in God.

However, the text says that you can't even see the kingdom of God unless you are spiritually regenerated.

What do you think the kingdom of God is?

 

[corinth77777]

Explain this verse. And not only explain it, but explain it honestly:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If you can't, no worries, it's really not possible to explain it any other way than an eternal security perspective. Because that's the truth.

Just as Moses lifted up the bronze serpent in the wilderness, and all who looked upon the serpent were healed, so too that anyone who looks upon the Son of Man and believes are saved. (John 3:14-15)

Come join the family of God. You're wanted. So much.

Eternal security is Christ....


Heb 10

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”
38 And, “But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”[h]
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

John 6:40

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the. last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Isaiah 28
28:1 The splendid crown of Ephraim’s drunkards is doomed,
the withering flower, its beautiful splendor,
situated at the head of a rich valley,
the crown of those overcome with wine.
28:2 Look, the sovereign master sends a strong, powerful one.
With the force of a hailstorm or a destructive windstorm,
with the might of a driving, torrential rainstorm,
he will knock that crown to the ground with his hand.
28:3 The splendid crown of Ephraim’s drunkards
will be trampled underfoot.
28:4 The withering flower, its beautiful splendor,
situated at the head of a rich valley,
will be like an early fig before harvest –
as soon as someone notices it,
he grabs it and swallows it. 11
28:5 At that time the Lord who commands armies will become a beautiful crown
and a splendid diadem for the remnant of his people.
28:6 He will give discernment to the one who makes judicial decisions,
and strength to those who defend the city from attackers.
28:7 Even these men stagger because of wine,
they stumble around because of beer –
priests and prophets stagger because of beer,
they are confused because of wine,
they stumble around because of beer;
they stagger while seeing prophetic visions,
they totter while making legal decisions.
28:8 Indeed, all the tables are covered with vomit;
no place is untouched.
28:9 Who is the Lord trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining a message?
Those just weaned from milk!
Those just taken from their mother’s breast!
28:10 Indeed, they will hear meaningless gibberish,
senseless babbling,
a syllable here, a syllable there.
28:11 For with mocking lips and a foreign tongue
he will speak to these people.
28:12 In the past he said to them,
“This is where security can be found.
Provide security for the one who is exhausted!
This is where rest can be found.”
But they refused to listen.
28:13 So the Lord’s word to them will sound like
meaningless gibberish,
senseless babbling,
a syllable here, a syllable there.
As a result, they will fall on their backsides when they try to walk,
and be injured, ensnared, and captured.
The Lord Will Judge Jerusalem
28:14 Therefore, listen to the Lord’s word,
you who mock,
you rulers of these people
who reside in Jerusalem!
28:15 For you say,
“We have made a treaty with death,
with Sheol we have made an agreement.
When the overwhelming judgment sweeps by
it will not reach us.
For we have made a lie our refuge,
we have hidden ourselves in a deceitful word.”
28:16 Therefore, this is what the sovereign master, the Lord, says:
“Look, I am laying a stone in Zion,
an approved stone,
set in place as a precious cornerstone for the foundation.
The one who maintains his faith will not panic.
28:17 I will make justice the measuring line,
fairness the plumb line;
hail will sweep away the unreliable refuge,
the floodwaters will overwhelm the hiding place.
28:18 Your treaty with death will be dissolved;
your agreement with Sheol will not last.
When the overwhelming judgment sweeps by,
you will be overrun by it.
28:19 Whenever it sweeps by, it will overtake you;
indeed, every morning it will sweep by,
it will come through during the day and the night.”
When this announcement is understood,
it will cause nothing but terror.

1 john 2:28

28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

So you are sealed unto the day.....[in Christ]

And if you get there....what would his kingdom be like for one who chose not to keep his word...

Which is believe on the one he has sent.
His kingdom...enter now...and have life...
That same life you will be raised with.

 

[razzelflabben]

"Actually, 1Peter 4:13 is speaking, not of partaking in God or the Holy Spirit, but in the sufferings of Christ. Nothing is said at all of the Holy Spirit in this verse.

already addressed it and you ignored it...last night as I was praying I was inspired to try a different approach to try and get you to hear what is being said so that your rebuttals can reflect that which is being said. I am saying this here so that you know I am not just ignoring your post but rather not addressing this post since it does NOT reflect the things that are being discussed at this time.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"ENDURE"

 

[corinth77777]

Explain this verse. And not only explain it, but explain it honestly:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If you can't, no worries, it's really not possible to explain it any other way than an eternal security perspective. Because that's the truth.

Just as Moses lifted up the bronze serpent in the wilderness, and all who looked upon the serpent were healed, so too that anyone who looks upon the Son of Man and believes are saved. (John 3:14-15)

Come join the family of God. You're wanted. So much.

You said,Just as Moses lifted up the bronze serpent in the wilderness, and all who looked upon the serpent were healed, so too that anyone who looks upon the Son of Man and believes are saved. (John 3:14-15)

This believes...is it not continual

 

[greenguzzi]

It's clear, then, from my post that the spiritually regenerated are those who trust have faith, in God

Not as clear as you seem to think it is.
In the context of the believer, the word "regeneration" (παλιγγενεσία) only appears once in the NT (Titus 3), where it is talking about the work of the Holy Spirit in the (new) believer's life. It seems to me to point directly to Peter's sermon in Acts 2.

What do you think the kingdom of God is?

God's people in God's place under God's rule.
(Graeme Goldsworthy)

 

[razzelflabben]

aiki...I am directing this at you because you are the one who has not been listening and refuting what is being said...as I prayed for you last night as I said I would, I was inspired to try our discussion a different way and hope that in that you will be able to comprehend what is being said...now, keep in mind I am NOT asking you to agree only to comprehend.

Before we begin, it would be so much easier if we could sit across from one another but we will do the best we can. Here is my premise...please listen carefully since you have repeatedly shown you lack of listening by false accusation of my very premise.

I have been in Love with the Living God for about 50 years now, never once turning away from Him. I have failed on occasion to follow as I should as we all have, but to turn from Him, never and I don't plan to this late in the race. Therefore I don't really have a horse in this race so to speak. IOW's it does Not matter to me what the truth of the matter is, my ONLY interest in the topic is to know the Lord God better today than I did yesterday. That is it, so I really don't care what your opinion is, what my opinion might or might not be, what Tom, Joe, or Harry's opinion is, all I want to know is what God says on this matter. That is my entire interest in this discussion, to know God more, not you or your opinions. That being said, let's begin...

You were asked the question what does the regenerated believer look like. This is the question that I want you to keep in mind throughout this entire discussion.

Now, let's begin...How does the regenerated person deal with Christ and the gospel thereof? They believe unto salvation, correct? (this is where face to face would be better, because we could wait for your answer not assume) What does scripture tell us about belief? Well, let's look...Acts 17:30 “Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent,

Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them and because of the hardness of their hearts.

I Timothy 1:13 one who was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an arrogant man. But I received mercy because I acted out of ignorance in unbelief.

I Peter 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the desires of your former ignorance.

Notice that ignorance is equated with unbelief...thus the regenerated person would no longer be ignorance of Christ/the gospel, right? They would instead of living in ignorance be living in belief, right?

Now, go to Heb. 6:4 what does it say...the are enlightened...as previously shown the word enlightened means without ignorance.

Now, I am going to be as fair as I can possibly be so that you have no right to accuse me of all kinds of non sense...since it does NOT say they are enlightened about anything specific we can make an excuse for it being something other than Christ/the gospel that they are enlightened in...it would be hard to make the case, but we could do so without totally destroying the text. The context as we move along will clarify for us but at the moment what we have is a consistency that the regenerated person is enlightened in Christ/the gospel. Again, notice that at this point I am allowing that the person in HEB. could be enlightened in something other than Christ/the gospel so pursuing that argument will show an unwillingness on your part to listen.

 

[razzelflabben]

Number two....what are the heavenly gifts? According to the Lexicon the heavenly gift is that which is in heaven. Now, at one point you argued that Christ was in heaven, fair enough but what else is in heaven that the regenerated believer will experience? What about peace, joy, comfort? We are told that heaven will be for the believer a place of peace, joy, comfort, worship, right? Right? The regenerated believer has peace, joy, comfort, and worship in this life, from the moment of new birth to the eternal heavenly home.

Now, we will talk about where these things come from in a moment because the context once again ties all this together for us but for the moment all we want to focus on is the heavenly gifts. Luke 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

equates the good gifts of a Father's Love with none other than the HS.

So, what then would the gift of the regenerated believer be? The HS and the gifts thereof, right? Right. Where do we find the gifts of the HS...it's called the fruit and is found in Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.


IOW's a touch of heaven here on earth. As previously talked about, this can only be a taste because we are not yet in heaven.

Let me tell you a story to illustrate the point...when I was in college a friend and I were both struggling with some different matters so we decided to walk to the church and pray. As we walked to the church to pray we talked about the SS lesson, the lesson was about Moses taking off his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. So when we got to the church we decided to take off our shoes and stand on holy ground. Before either of us could make it half way down the isle to the alter we fell to our knees in worship because of the glimpse of God we received. Not with fleshly eyes but with our spirits. You see, that is a "taste of the heavenly gift" it is to experience a portion of the richness of heaven and the glory thereof of God.

Now, as I said I will be as fair as possible and thus we can allow you for the moment to make the argument that they are experiencing the heavenly gifts by "rubbing elbows" so to speak with the believers in our services...but don't forget that we have to look at context and the first thing listed says they are no longer ignorant. So how would a non believer who is no longer ignorant of the things of God only be able to participate in the heavenly gifts without being part of them? This is a question I can NOT answer but I encourage you to do so. It's about context, but God wants to make His teaching here clear so He adds onto the understanding....as we move on...

 

[razzelflabben]

They have also shared in the HS. Now you and I have had some disagreements about what that means but let's look at it fairly, shall we? The word can be translated partake, share, partner. Here it is cut and pasted from the STrong's concordance site....

1. sharing in, partaking
   
   
2. a partner (in a work, office, dignity)
   

Now, it is always helpful to understand how the word is used throughout scripture so here is the list from the same source of how the word is used throughout the scriptures you know the totality of scripture. These are the only times it is used so it is significant to review them...

Luk 5:7

And they beckoned unto their partners, G3353 which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.

here it is being used as a way of inviting someone to join and they do....which is interesting to the Heb passage but not enough to drive us to a conclusion.....


Heb 1:9

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. G3353

Here it is talking about the anointing of God....which pushes us toward the understanding of regenerated but that isn't enough either...

Heb 3:1

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers G3353 of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Notice here that they brethren or regenerated believer is partaking of the heavenly calling which makes any other interpretation of Heb. than that of true believer very difficult to manage. But we can keep looking.

Heb 3:14

For we are made partakers G3353 of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Partakers of Christ makes us true believers if we stay the course which is pretty much the exact same thing Heb. says, staying the course is necessary. But again, I want no questions so what about the HS not the Christ? Well, who receives the HS? See, just receiving Christ is enough to call us true believers but the HS is only given to the true believers.


Heb 6:4

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers G3353 of the Holy Ghost,

this is the one we are talking about....

Heb 12:8

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, G3353 then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Notice that here being partaker is equated to being a believer who is corrected and thus a true son of the Living God...iow's a regenerated believer is one who is a corrected son...

this leave little room for understanding it as anything be the true believer when we add all the things together the case is overwhelming. But we aren't done....let's keep going

 

[razzelflabben]

tasted God's good word and the powers of the coming age...this is two parts, part one the good word...Notice what Matthew 13 tells us about the true believer...verse 23 But the one sown on the good ground—this is one who hears and understands the word, who does bear fruit and yields: some 100, some 60, some 30 times what was sown.”

The true believer hears the word and understands it, iow's He tastes it...(I know you have a problem with the word taste, just be patient)

Look at some of the cross references about tasting...Psalm 34:8
O taste and see that the LORD is good; How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!

1 Peter 2:3
since you have tasted that the Lord is good.

even Heb. 2:9 tells us that to taste is to ingest it...But we do see Jesus—made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God’s grace He might taste death for everyone—crowned with glory and honor because of His suffering in death.

thus it is hard to make the case that to taste simply means to join a worship service especially when they are tasting the word of God and the power thereof....now, let me also give you this passage...II Timothy 3:5 holding to the form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid these people!

this passage tells us two important things as it applies to the interpretation of Heb 6...1. if they have "tasted" the power of true belief, they are true believers and 2. if they only have a form of godliness but deny the power therein they are not to be in our midst...iow's they wouldn't be part of the church that you are trying to claim they are partaking of. Now I don't know of any passage that tells us to avoid the seekers, the goats (aka unbelievers in our midst), or the unbeliever in general in fact we are to Love them as Christ did which is in their midst. But the one who has the belief in Christ but denies the power of that Christ we are to avoid. That is a very strong case for the one talked about in Heb. as being a true believer being they have "tasted" that power.

 

[razzelflabben]

Finally, let us continue to look at the context...notice the word return to repentance in verse 6...this returning is important to the context because one cannot return to what was never there to begin with. IOW's they had once known the richness and forgiveness of repenting of one's sins.

Now the question I asked you to keep in mind throughout this discussion...what does the regenerated believer look like? Remember...how does the true believer become regenerated? It's a reconciliation that requires the confession and repentance of our sins....
2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Psalms 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah

Psalms 41:4 As for me, I said, “O LORD, be gracious to me; heal me, for I have sinned against you!”

Psalms 69:5 O God, you know my folly; the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you.

Isaiah 55:5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you.

Isaiah 55:6-7 “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Acts 8:22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

Psalms 34:14 Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.

Psalms 38:18 I confess my iniquity; I am sorry for my sin.

Ezekiel 18:21-23 But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Revelation 3:3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

SEE, the context clarifies every single question you threw against it and tells us without question that the one falling away in Heb. 6 was a true believer. there are other passages that say the same thing but our discussion was about Heb. 6 and using common literary rules, the Lexicon (translation definitions), ley way to make you happy, context, and context of the totality of scripture there is only one possible interpretation for the person in Heb. 6 that is falling away...they were the regenerated believer that you claim they were not. There is no other way to see it in context...

 

[aiki]

I appreciate that what you have just written is, in your mind, an attempt to foster clearer, more fruitful communication. In reality it amounts to "throwing the Elephant" which is a tactic of argument designed to overwhelm the opponent with information and make a response difficult, if not impossible. Now, you may not have intended to "throw the Elephant" but, regardless, the effect on our conversation is the same: it makes a response to your comments very difficult and time-consuming. Understand then, that if/when I make a response, it is likely to be much larger than what you have just fashioned. I have to go point-by-point through your remarks and reply. It is also going to take considerable time. You will have to wait a while 'til I can write out a full response.

Selah.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This believes...is it not continual

Yes, and not only continual.
There are over FORTY OTHER CRITERIA in the NEW TESTAMENT,
and
many of those IN JESUS OWN WORDS
that
describe those who are saved. (who are NOT pretenders)

If someone pretends for most of them (like the scribes and pharisees did)
or even for all but one (like Nicodemus )
then they are not saved.

i.e. EVERY WORD of YHWH , not just one or a few pulled out as if.