• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟72,039.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

26 pages later the dispute rages on!

I highly recommend a more nuanced approach to the topic that focuses on all the data about perseverance in faith.

The audience that is being spoken to is Christian. The things lost are described as "crown of life."

The Christians that fall away are contrasted with "those who are saved."

Faith in Christ is what is being called to preserve.

This approach makes for a clearer path forward I think. As there is a lot less fuzziness than say the idea that Judas was a Christian, when most associate the disciples becoming saved when they were baptized in the HS on Pentecost (Acts 2). Making Judas someone who was never saved.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But the seven sons of Sceva in Acts 19 were described as "some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists."

We see accounts of Jewish exorcism in the rabbinic writings and apocryphal writings from 200 BCE to 200 CE. Many were clearly not Christian.

Clearly, every believer has the type of authority demonstrated by the 12 and 70. But why assume that it is exclusive to Christians? It seems that Priest, Rabbis, and itinerant exorcists, had some abilities to expel some demons.

If this is true, then Judas isn't necessarily an example of someone who lost his salvation.

Again, a deeper conceptual study of how well-defined or loosely-defined salvation is in the scriptures needs to occur before we try and force Judas into the "saved" category.

No you don't seem to be reading it right. These men were different than the ones that the apostles said did not follow them but cast out devils IN JESUS NAME. these group here in Acts 19 cannot be shown to be the same ones. Jesus said without him no man can do anything John 15:5, of spiritual power or life etc . Jesus gave the 12 apostles power to cast out devils that is such a powerful correction to the eternal security crowd that try to say Jesus did not give power to them and specifically to Judas. Scripture is very clear that he did.

But lets look at the story in Acts 19 again

"13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.[This shows that they were just using a formula and they did not know jesus themselves, they simply tries to imitate Paul and whom he cast devil out by. Today there are many who claim to be in connection to spiritual power and who call themselves exorcist and mediums etc, and they are not in Christ but deceivers this may be similar even them. ]

14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? [Clearly the devils did not recognize these men and they were not in the power of God in Christ. So they did not fear these so called exorcist]

16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. [this is the result of what can happen if men are not actually IN the NAME (character life power authority) of Jesus Christ and what happens if they are not in the spirit and born again.]

17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: [some were practicing curious arts perhaps as we see today mediums, exorcist diviners etc. and they realized that this was false and they were not in the truth and name of jesus Christ and reprinted and got saved]and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed."

So as you can see no man had any abilities outside of being in the name of jesus Christ. as Jesus said, "without me ye can do nothing" ( referring to spiritual power and life and ministry etc.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
26 pages later the dispute rages on!
As there is a lot less fuzziness than say the idea that Judas was a Christian, when most associate the disciples becoming saved when they were baptized in the HS on Pentecost (Acts 2). Making Judas someone who was never saved.

This is one of the chief errors for some in here to not understand salvation, what it is how we are saved and how the OT saints were saved and born again. Those who say Old testament saints were not saved or born again are not understanding the great mystery and the inward life of believers. They do not understand the seed sown in the heart which is the word of god , the true Light that lighter every man that cometh into the world which is also the mystery hid from ages and from generations which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

this is a large topic and much can be said about it.

I hope to discuss these things more in the future, all about what the new birth is and the inner life of OT saints and those today.

You might want to consider Romans 2:14,15 around there about the Gentiles who did not have the scriptures of the mosaic law specifically and how they had Gods natural way of dealing with all men ( both Jews and gentles) which is the work of the law written in their hearts and their inner conscience bearing witness, and one day God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to the gospel.

also read Acts 17 that God put all men on all the face of the earth from whatever country they come for a reason that they should seek the Lord, if happily they might feel after him and find him though he be not far from every one of us.

You may also want to read 1 Cor 10 about the OT saints eating and drinking the SAME spiritual meat and drink we eat and drink, for they and we eat of the spiritual Rock which is Christ.

etc etc etc
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
26 pages later the dispute rages on!

I highly recommend a more nuanced approach to the topic that focuses on all the data about perseverance in faith.

There is so much that can be shown from scripture showing a believer can lose salvation it would be a massive discussion. I wanted to focus on just one part of this the Judas being saved part. i could focus on many other parts of scripture but it would fill entire volumes. There is so much evidence a person can be saved and lose it way to much info for now. And many others have touched on all sorts of aspects of this in this forum already.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Thy word was found and i did eat.

The word is referred to as light, the seed, water, bread, etc. Jesus said unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no life IN US. He is the living bread..Old testament saints ate and drank of the same spiritual meat and drink we do and that was Christ, 1 Cor 10.
Ye are "gods" to whom THE WORD OF GOD HAS COME"

John 6 showed that THE WORD OF GOD (who is CHRIST) did not come to all

It remains that some do NOT recognize that HE IS THE BREAD of LIFE

Peter would not leave HIM because he had cone to understand that HE is THE CHRIST and has THE WORD of ETERNAL LIFE that a man should "eat" of HIM in order to have LIFE IN him (and be IN HIM)

For that is the will and the work of GOD that whoever sees the SON and believes in HIM has LIFE and HE will raise us up on the last day

Do all believe this?
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Please expound John 13:10 and tell me who CHRIST was referring to when HE said "Ye are clean, but not all?"

Then move on to John 13:11


Was Lucifer clean at one time before he no longer remained in the truth, that he was in before? Was lucifer created perfect in all his ways and walked with God before he fell and is he now considered unclean of fallen and will end up in the lake of fire.

The time and context of when and where things are said is important
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
*** Judas was in it for motives unaccociated imo


Judas was a sheep of jesus one if HIS disciples whom followed jesus and in the end he fell by transgression and was lost then.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Was Lucifer clean at one time before he no longer remained in the truth, that he was in before? Was lucifer created perfect in all his ways and walked with God before he fell and is he now considered unclean of fallen and will end up in the lake of fire.

The time and context of when and where things are said is important
Those who are clean are those whom THE LORD washes and declares clean
 
  • Like
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Those who are clean are those whom THE LORD washes and declares clean


and Lucifer was created ( as scriptures shows) perfect in all his ways. So if he was unclean he would not be said to have been perfect in all his ways.

Sometimes the truth is so simple and clear to the unbiased reader, there is no need to try and avoid the simple reality of the text.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
and Lucifer was created ( as scriptures shows) perfect in all his ways. So if he was unclean he would not be said to have been perfect in all his ways.

Sometimes the truth is so simple and clear to the unbiased reader, there is no need to try and avoid the simple reality of the text.
Are we talking about Lucifer or Judas

I don't want to discuss lucifer. I have no interest in discussing what is lost and will not be found

Just as GOD said:

let the dead bury their dead

For the GOSPEL is for the living and while it is still today it is still the Year of GOD's FAVOR...for the living

Lucifer will not have salvation
And Judas was declared unclean already
 
Last edited:
  • Useful
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is very clear

John 13:10 through John 13:11 is very clear

Yet I don't know what you want me to see as the connection between Satan and Judas other than Satan forfeited his true home and no place was found for him. And Judas betrayed the LORD. Something the LORD already knew which is why HE said "not all are clean"

Judas was NOT clean

No matter how perfect/clean Satan was from the beginning he is no longer perfect/clean and will not be perfected/washed
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

JCFantasy23

In a Kingdom by the Sea.
Jul 1, 2008
46,753
6,386
Lakeland, FL
✟509,627.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
MOD HAT ON

This Thread Has Been Moved from General Theology to Salvation

full


We are moving this thread to a section where it is a better fit.

Please continue the discussion here, thank you.

MOD HAT OFF
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What did Christ say to Peter when HE was about to wash him and Peter said LORD you will never wash me?

If I do not wash you you have no part with ME

Peter knew the honor and glory and worship and adoration the LORD is deserving and worthy of
 
Last edited:
  • Useful
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟72,039.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
There is so much that can be shown from scripture showing a believer can lose salvation it would be a massive discussion. I wanted to focus on just one part of this the Judas being saved part. i could focus on many other parts of scripture but it would fill entire volumes. There is so much evidence a person can be saved and lose it way to much info for now. And many others have touched on all sorts of aspects of this in this forum already.

There is a hermeneutical principle that suggests we interpret the unclear in light of the clear.

I would focus on someone considered saved by all. Something after Pentecost. Demas perhaps or Rev 2 and 3.
 
Upvote 0