Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[SeventyOne]

Also, to preach a gospel that says, "We are saved by a belief alone and not by any works thru out our life at all" is wrong because it can lead people to think they can sin and still be saved (Even if that is something you don't want them to do). For when you take away the consequences of something, people are going to naturally do that which is bad. People can fall away from the faith. Judas, Ananais, and Sapphira are just a few examples of this in Scripture. So my encouragement to believers out there is to trust that God is good (and that His people would have to be naturally good all the way up until the end of their lives, too).


...

So, you are sinless then?

 

[SeventyOne]

Another thing that is ridiculous to me is that people think Jesus chose the 12 with one of them already being a devil. So does Jesus choose devils? Does Jesus who is the Holy Son of God want evil people to represent His Kingdom or gospel? The OSAS Proponent would like us to believe this, but it is just crazy talk and totally incomprehensible. For there is a difference of false deceiving believers (i.e. the weeds) being in our world and God actively choosing to hand pick an evil person to spread the gospel as one of His holy disciples. That doesn't make any sense.


...

Yes, He would, because that's what He said He did, and His Kingdom wasn't here at the time, so that point makes no sense.

 

[Goatee]

Judas life was mapped out for him

 

[LoveofTruth]

Another thing that is ridiculous to me is that people think Jesus chose the 12 with one of them already being a devil. So does Jesus choose devils? Does Jesus who is the Holy Son of God want evil people to represent His Kingdom or gospel? The OSAS Proponent would like us to believe this, but it is just crazy talk and totally incomprehensible. For there is a difference of false deceiving believers (i.e. the weeds) being in our world and God actively choosing to hand pick an evil person to spread the gospel as one of His holy disciples. That doesn't make any sense.


...

I agree. Jesus called HIS 12 and they were apostles, ordained and sent by him and given power to cast out devil. Obviously they weren't devils themselves.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, He would, because that's what He said He did, and His Kingdom wasn't here at the time, so that point makes no sense.

The kingdom of God was there inwardly . Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you. And only those born again could see the kingdom of God. Jesus said to his apostles, but your eyes see ( the kingdom) to those without ( outside the kingdom) it is show in parables.

 

[SeventyOne]

The kingdom of God was there inwardly . Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you. And only those born again could see the kingdom of God. Jesus said to his apostles, but your eyes see ( the kingdom) to those without ( outside the kingdom) it is show in parables.

Mmmm, no. I think you are bastardizing those passages as well.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Mmmm, no. I think you are bastardizing those passages as well.

No Im
m, not and when you say the words "as well", you imply that I have bastardized other text. This is false. I haven't bastardized any text. If so show me where.

here is the verses showing the kingdom of God was there

"
Luke 17:21
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."


Mark 4:11
"And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:"

Notice here that the mysteries of the kingdom were given to the disciples, but those that are WITHOUT" that is without the kingdom, they are not given.

also

"3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3 KJV)

"15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

 

[SeventyOne]

No Im
m, not and when you say the words "as well", you imply that I have bastardized other text. This is false. I haven't bastardized any text. If so show me where.

I already have shown you, multiple times, in previous posts.

I do know why you do these things, however, because there isn't an adequate understanding of salvation involved. Any way you slice it, you are teaching salvation by works. The only difference is where arguments like this place that work. Yes, I know you keep swearing you believe we are saved by grace through faith, but am I to believe your words or your continual actions?

In your case, it's initial salvation by faith through grace, but after that one can "walk away", an act of rebellion, which is a work and a sin. In other words, saved by works, just placed in an order other than the beginning of the process. No matter where you place your salvation by works message, it's still the same thing, a false gospel.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I already have shown you, multiple times, in previous posts.

I do know why you do these things, however, because there isn't an adequate understanding of salvation involved. Any way you slice it, you are teaching salvation by works. The only difference is where arguments like this place that work. Yes, I know you keep swearing you believe we are saved by grace through faith, but am I to believe your words or your continual actions?

In your case, it's initial salvation by faith through grace, but after that one can "walk away", an act of rebellion, which is a work and a sin. In other words, saved by works, just placed in an order other than the beginning of the process. No matter where you place your salvation by works message, it's still the same thing, a false gospel.

you are false again and will be found a false witness against me one day, take heed

It is common for those in your camp to try and show anyone who disagrees with your doctrine that they are in a works salvation.

I believe that all believers are saved and justified by works. But those works are not our works. It is God's work on the cross and his work in us. If a man says he has faith and not God working in him, he is lost. Show me your faith without God working in you and Ill show you my faith with God working in me. If we abide in the work of God through faith ( not works of our flesh) then we can walk in the spirit with God and the flesh will be mortified. But if we walk in the flesh we shall die. if we sow to the spirit we shall reap everlasting life but if we sow to the flesh we shall reap corruption.

If you don't understand this read hebrews 3 :12 and on. And see that a believer does not depart from God through works, but through unbelief. This is what i teach everywhere.

I have never in all my years of being a believer heard any from the opposing side be able to avoid the rebuke to their doctrine that hebrews 3 shows.

I eagerly wait for your response to hebrews 3:12. This shows that a believer can depart from God through UNBELIEF, we didn't get saved by our own works, and we don't lose it by works, but by unbelief.

and I can ask you if you commit sin are you still of God?

 

[LoveofTruth]

I already have shown you, multiple times, in previous posts.

I do know why you do these things, however, because there isn't an adequate understanding of salvation involved. Any way you slice it, you are teaching salvation by works. The only difference is where arguments like this place that work. Yes, I know you keep swearing you believe we are saved by grace through faith, but am I to believe your words or your continual actions?

In your case, it's initial salvation by faith through grace, but after that one can "walk away", an act of rebellion, which is a work and a sin. In other words, saved by works, just placed in an order other than the beginning of the process. No matter where you place your salvation by works message, it's still the same thing, a false gospel.

as Paul said believers have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power is of God and not of us.

But men can deny God and turn away, and some can turn aside after Satan, and cast off their first faith having damnation. They can give heed to seducing spirits and even deny the Lord that bought them, they can be castaways and fall into the condemnation of the devil

 

[LoveofTruth]

for all to consider

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus...6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

 

[ToBeLoved]

you are false again and will be found a false witness against me one day, take heed

It is common for those in your camp to try and show anyone who disagrees with your doctrine that they are in a works salvation.

I believe that all believers are saved and justified by works. But those works are not our works. It is God's work on the cross and his work in us. If a man says he has faith and not God working in him, he is lost. Show me your faith without God working in you and Ill show you my faith with God working in me. If we abide in the work of God through faith ( not works of our flesh) then we can walk in the spirit with God and the flesh will be mortified. But if we walk in the flesh we shall die. if we sow to the spirit we shall reap everlasting life but if we sow to the flesh we shall reap corruption.

If you don't understand this read hebrews 3 :12 and on. And see that a believer does not depart from God through works, but through unbelief. This is what i teach everywhere.

I have never in all my years of being a believer heard any from the opposing side be able to avoid the rebuke to their doctrine that hebrews 3 shows.

I eagerly wait for your response to hebrews 3:12. This shows that a believer can depart from God through UNBELIEF, we didn't get saved by our own works, and we don't lose it by works, but by unbelief.

and I can ask you if you commit sin are you still of God?

Well maybe you need to lay out your Hebrews 3 doctrine so we can see your proof. This allows all of us to look at and evaluate the same verses.

 

[ToBeLoved]

for all to consider

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus...6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

That is impossible to read. What happened to regular black text with maybe an underline for the words emphasized

 

[aiki]

Another thing that is ridiculous to me is that people think Jesus chose the 12 with one of them already being a devil. So does Jesus choose devils? Does Jesus who is the Holy Son of God want evil people to represent His Kingdom or gospel?

Is God not omniscient? Has He not always known each of us, even before the universe existed? If He is omniscient as the Bible teaches, then He certainly always knew who Judas would be and what he would do to Christ. And yet, God chose him as one of Christ's original twelve disciples anyway. God uses all things to achieve His ends. Not even the devil is exempt from being used by God to accomplish His divine will. Why, then, is it such a strange thing to think Judas would also be a tool in God's hands to accomplish His redemption of humanity?

The OSAS Proponent would like us to believe this, but it is just crazy talk and totally incomprehensible.

Well, simply saying so doesn't make it so. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but as an unjustified assertion, that is all it is.

For there is a difference of false deceiving believers (i.e. the weeds) being in our world and God actively choosing to hand pick an evil person to spread the gospel as one of His holy disciples. That doesn't make any sense.

It may not make any sense to you but God is very clear that He doesn't act in accordance with what we would do or with what we think (See Isaiah 55:8, 9). He has used murderers, and liars, and cowards, and adulterers to accomplish His will. He used wicked, pagan nations to judge His Chosen People! I don't see, then, why choosing a wretch like Judas should seem "incomprehensible."

Selah.

 

[aiki]

I think this blog post of mine is appropo to this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/osas-god-saves-us-and-he-keeps-us.199944/

 

[LoveofTruth]

That is impossible to read. What happened to regular black text with maybe an underline for the words emphasized

I was trying to point out certain aspects of it

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus...6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

 

[LoveofTruth]

/..

 

[LoveofTruth]

Again, that is a violation of context. He speaks both to the saved and to the unsaved - therefore you cannot quote him and combine the two messages and come up with your own truth. The two are opposite and you are combining them. That is why you are getting so much of an argument out of everyone. You are not properly dividing the word.

saying they "are saved" is not violating any context. Ir is very clear to the unbiased reader.

and no one reason some in here argue against what i teach is because they are in error in their assemblies and have been taught the false Once saved always saved doctrine.

In your case you are in error by believing that he who believes does not have life and is not saved as they abide in that life NOW.

Jesus said without him believers can do nothing. This is only when he is IN us and we IN him. To be in Christ is to have salvation and to be made whole complete, to come from death t life

These are so very basic truths i marvel that you cannot see them.

your doctrine is not right and you do not rightly divide the word of truth

 

[SeventyOne]

as Paul said believers have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power is of God and not of us.

But men can deny God and turn away, and some can turn aside after Satan, and cast off their first faith having damnation. They can give heed to seducing spirits and even deny the Lord that bought them, they can be castaways and fall into the condemnation of the devil

Only when those passages are bastardized and a gospel of works are imposed on them.

Paul said salvation is by grace through faith not of works, so no man could boast. This thread turns it into salvation by grace through faith initially, then it's up to us to keep ourselves saved through our works, so we may boast how we have kept ourselves saved.

 

[SeventyOne]

you are false again and will be found a false witness against me one day, take heed

It is common for those in your camp to try and show anyone who disagrees with your doctrine that they are in a works salvation.

I believe that all believers are saved and justified by works. But those works are not our works. It is God's work on the cross and his work in us. If a man says he has faith and not God working in him, he is lost. Show me your faith without God working in you and Ill show you my faith with God working in me. If we abide in the work of God through faith ( not works of our flesh) then we can walk in the spirit with God and the flesh will be mortified. But if we walk in the flesh we shall die. if we sow to the spirit we shall reap everlasting life but if we sow to the flesh we shall reap corruption.

If you don't understand this read hebrews 3 :12 and on. And see that a believer does not depart from God through works, but through unbelief. This is what i teach everywhere.

I have never in all my years of being a believer heard any from the opposing side be able to avoid the rebuke to their doctrine that hebrews 3 shows.

I eagerly wait for your response to hebrews 3:12. This shows that a believer can depart from God through UNBELIEF, we didn't get saved by our own works, and we don't lose it by works, but by unbelief.

and I can ask you if you commit sin are you still of God?

Heed taken. I'll gladly stand there and take what's coming to me for opposing a works-based salvation message.

It's common for those in my "camp" to show it as works salvation, precisely because IT IS works salvation. We all know that old saying... if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it's a duck.

I've heard all the bastardized arguments for your brand of works salvation, and I know you've likely heard all the arguments against it. Does it make sense for continue to continue with you to only have truth rejected again, over and over? That's not good for you in the end. The other guy on this thread states he's been on here for five years preaching for this works salvation doctrine. That's a whole lot of blindness going on over there as well.

However, as for Hebrews 3, you'll have to prove the entirety of the recipients were actually born again, and it wasn't a mixed group of people like found in even any modern group congregation. Otherwise, you're imposing a personal assumption to interpret the text. The thing reads like a sermon for Jews, and not necessarily all converted Jews, which would explain the various areas where people are warned that if the come to "full knowledge" then walk away, then there is no hope. It's partially a strong gospel message to the lost among them.