Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[ToBeLoved]

Heed taken. I'll gladly stand there and take what's coming to me for opposing a works-based salvation message.

It's common for those in my "camp" to show it as works salvation, precisely because IT IS works salvation. We all know that old saying... if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it's a duck.

I've heard all the bastardized arguments for your brand of works salvation, and I know you've likely heard all the arguments against it. Does it make sense for continue to continue with you to only have truth rejected again, over and over? That's not good for you in the end. The other guy on this thread states he's been on here for five years preaching for this works salvation doctrine. That's a whole lot of blindness going on over there as well.

However, as for Hebrews 3, you'll have to prove the entirety of the recipients were actually born again, and it wasn't a mixed group of people like found in even any modern group congregation. Otherwise, you're imposing a personal assumption to interpret the text. The thing reads like a sermon for Jews, and not necessarily all converted Jews, which would explain the various areas where people are warned that if the come to "full knowledge" then walk away, then there is no hope. It's partially a strong gospel message to the lost among them.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Only when those passages are bastardized and a gospel of works are imposed on them.

Paul said salvation is by grace through faith not of works, so no man could boast. This thread turns it into salvation by grace through faith initially, then it's up to us to keep ourselves saved through our works, so we may boast how we have kept ourselves saved.

No its not thats what you try to twist it around to say.

beleivers are kept by the power of God through faith. and yes this is OUR faith in Gods work for us and in us.

If a man yeilds to the flesh as a believer and is drawn after the flesh and into sin and his heart is hardened then he can be in danger of having an evil heart of unbelief and departing from the living God (Hebrews 3;12) and as Judas did. Then the world he does are in the dead works of the flesh, even if he tries to save i himself in this unbelief it is all dead works of the flesh or the law etc. But if he has godly sorrow ( which is sorrow towards God and for breaking his law and this is shown by the true Light that lights him and exposes his sin) and this godly sorrow worth repentance unto salvation. Then he comes back into faith and God dwells in his heart then the works he does in faith are good works from god working in him. The old man can do nothing, but the new man can do all things in Christ.

If a man does not have God working in him being created in Christ jesus unto these good works then he is not in the saving faith that worketh by love.

True faith has works of God in the new man that reflect in the life he lives. These works don't save us but are evidence of what tree we are in. if a good tree we will produce good fruit if in the bad or corrupt tree of the flesh we will produce such works. God examines the hearts and sees what type of works they are.

 

[LoveofTruth]

However, as for Hebrews 3, you'll have to prove the entirety of the recipients were actually born again, and it wasn't a mixed group of people like found in even any modern group congregation. Otherwise, you're imposing a personal assumption to interpret the text. The thing reads like a sermon for Jews, and not necessarily all converted Jews, which would explain the various areas where people are warned that if the come to "full knowledge" then walk away, then there is no hope. It's partially a strong gospel message to the lost among them.

This is very easy to do just read the chapter, it speaks to Holy brethren , of Christ household and the writer includes himself ( a saved man ) in this warning. Only the totally biased person would miss that

and it is common for those who hold the heretical doctrine of Once Saved always saved to try and put the other side in the works for salvation camp This is wrong, I do not believe there is any thing a man can do to save himself. God offers the salvation and we must receive it, believe, have faith in Gods righteousness and work for us and in us. This faith is daily and we must continue in this faith. if not we can have en evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God.

Show me your faith with it your works and i will show you my faith by God working in me and the reflection n my life.
This is how we are justified by works as James speaks of. The works are from the new man, not the old man. The new man is in Christ created unto good works, and God works in the new man to make him perfect unto every good work. if a man walks in sin and not in the new man this is evidence that he is called and lost and in the flesh.

i ask you

if you commit sin are you still of God?

a simple yes or no is good then your explanation

and and when you are in sin can you claim to know God and be in the light?

 

[SeventyOne]

beleivers are kept by the power of God through faith. and yes this is OUR faith in Gods work for us and in us.

Grace through faith...

... then immediately back to our works

If a man yeilds to the flesh as a believer and is drawn afar and into sin and his heart is hardened then he can have an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God as Judas did.

No matter where you insert these caveats, or how you attempt to justify a way around them, as in "if he has godly sorrow", it's still a work of man in maintaining salvation. If this is you and you have been able to maintain your salvation, go ahead and boast about it.

 

[SeventyOne]

This is very easy to do just read the chapter, it speaks to Holy brethren , of Christ household and the writer includes himself ( a saved man ) in this warning. Only the totally biased person would miss that

So, in other words, you just assume it and only biased people disagree with that assumption. Understood.

and it is common for those who hold the heretical doctrine of Once Saved always saved to try and put the other side in the works for salvation camp This is wrong, i do not believe there is any thing a man can do to save himself. God offer the salvation and we must receive it, believe, have faith in Gods righteousness and work for us and in us. This faith is daily and we must continue in this faith. if not we can have en evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God.

I agree you've been very adamant about people not being able to save themselves... initially. I haven't argued that point with you. It's the whole keeping yourselves saved by works I'm protesting.

Show me your faith with it your works and i will show you my faith by God working in me and the reflection n my life.
This is how we are justified by works as James speaks of. The works are from the new man, not the old man. The new man is in Christ created unto good works, and God works in the new man to make him perfect unto every good work. if a man walks in sin and not in the new man this is evidence that he is called and lost and in the flesh.

i ask you

if you commit sin are you still of God?

a simple yes or no is good then your explanation

and and when you are in sin can you claim to know God and be in the light?

See, I'm going to need some clarification here. Are you asking if one was to commit one sin? Three sins? Fourteen sins? Exactly how many are we talking about here, and where is that cut-off line? Fourteen sins are ok, but fifteen sins are abominable? For example, if I were to proclaim a false works-based gospel 14 times, I'm good, but if I do it fifteen times, then I'm in trouble?

How many sins are you up to? What's your count?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Grace through faith...

... then immediately back to our works



No matter where you insert these caveats, or how you attempt to justify a way around them, as in "if he has godly sorrow", it's still a work of man in maintaining salvation. If this is you and you have been able to maintain your salvation, go ahead and boast about it.

No it is not, when i receive what God gives that is not my active work to get it. I simply receive what God has done and given. To believe is not works, as scripture teaches. if it is faith it is not works.

you are In massive confusion

and you cannot answer the fact that Judas was once saved and a sheep sent to the lost sheep and once belonged to the Father. There is no way Judas could have been successful and obtained part of the ministry unless he was in Christ and Christ in him as John 15;5 shows, no man can do anything unless they are in Christ..

and the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly righteousnly and godly in this present world. if a man does not continue in the grace of God ( If HE does not) then he is failing of the grace of God.

"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" ( Titus 2:11,12 KJV)

You misunderstand grace

Acts 13:43
Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in thegrace of God."

why would they have to be persuaded to continue in the grace of God if they could not do anything to continue. To continue stats with abiding in Christ through faith. and then to yield to the spirit and not the flesh. o sow to the spirit to reap everlasting life and not to the flesh which will only reap corruption.

Believers in faith, in the new man can obey God. The old man can do nothing, no flesh can glory or do anything spiritual. The flesh must be crucified. But the new man in Christ can act walk move do all things. But we are not robots, so we must abide in Christ and yield to the leading of God and walk with him, following the leading of the Spirit. if we do not we stifle our walk and growth. and if we yield to the flesh then the Spirit is being turned from and we will die.

You do not seem to make the distinction of the kinds of works that are done. In the old man, the sinful man in the flesh we can do nothing, and we do not save ourselves. But God gave this treasure in earthen vessels ( which is the seed, word, Christ in us, the true Light that lithteth every man) so that the excellency of the power is of God and not of us. When we receive him in our hearts by faith, God dwells there and we are a new creation. This new man is connected to Christ the head )Ephesians 4;15,16) and this new man can DO all things. So those who say we can do NOTHING are in error. it depends what man you are speaking of. The old man can do nothing but the new man that has been saved by Christ and who is being justified as he walks in this faith unto the end. (if he continues in it that is) this new man can DO all good things. being created in Christ jesus unto good works. These works are by God who works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work, working in us.

Just as the natural man gets life by the breath of air and this gives oxygen to his body, the spiritual man gets life from the Spirit of God to all his being.

"20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

can any say these WORKS are not needful?. If a man says he has faith and no works ( of God through the new man) can he say he is in faith and justified?

 

[LoveofTruth]

See, I'm going to need some clarification here. Are you asking if one was to commit one sin? Three sins? Fourteen sins? Exactly how many are we talking about here, and where is that cut-off line? Fourteen sins are ok, but fifteen sins are abominable? For example, if I were to proclaim a false works-based gospel 14 times, I'm good, but if I do it fifteen times, then I'm in trouble?

How many sins are you up to? What's your count?

I ask you a simple question

"if you commit sin are you still of God"

 

[SeventyOne]

No it is not, when i receive what God gives that is not my active work to get it. I simply receive what God has done and given. To believe is not works, as scripture teaches. if it is faith it is not works.

you are In massive confusion

and you cannot answer the fact that Judas was once saved and a sheep sent to the lost sheep and once belonged to the Father. There is no way Judas could have been successful and obtained part of the ministry unless he was in Christ and Christ in him as John 15;5 shows, no man can do anything unless they are in Christ..

and the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly righteousnly and godly in this present world. if a man does not continue in the grace of God ( If HE does not) then he is failing of the grace of God.

"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" ( Titus 2:11,12 KJV)

You misunderstand grace

Acts 13:43
Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in thegrace of God."

why would they have to be persuaded to continue in the grace of God if they could not do anything to continue. To continue stats with abiding in Christ through faith. and then to yield to the spirit and not the flesh. o sow to the spirit to reap everlasting life and not to the flesh which will only reap corruption.

Believers in faith, in the new man can obey God. The old man can do nothing, no flesh can glory or do anything spiritual. The flesh must be crucified. But the new man in Christ can act walk move do all things. But we are not robots, so we must abide in Christ and yield to the leading of God and walk with him, following the leading of the Spirit. if we do not we stifle our walk and growth. and if we yield to the flesh then the Spirit is being turned from and we will die.

You do not seem to make the distinction of the kinds of works that are done. In the old man, the sinful man in the flesh we can do nothing, and we do not save ourselves. But God gave this treasure in earthen vessels ( which is the seed, word, Christ in us, the true Light that lithteth every man) so that the excellency of the power is of God and not of us. When we receive him in our hearts by faith, God dwells there and we are a new creation. This new man is connected to Christ the head )Ephesians 4;15,16) and this new man can DO all things. So those who say we can do NOTHING ae in error. it depends what man you are speaking of. The old man can do nothing but the new man that has been saved by Christ and who is being justified as he walks in this faith unto the end. (if he continues in it that is) this new man can DO all good things. being created in Christ jesus unto good works. These works are by God who works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work, working in us.

Just as the natural man gets life by the breath of air and this gives oxygen to his body, the spiritual man gets life from the Spirit of God to all his being.

"20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

can any say these WORKS are not needful?. If a man says he has faith and no works ( of God through the new man) can he say he is in faith and justified?

I don't think you read through what you write. You keep using James incorrectly. Good works are a sign of salvation towards men. They are not a method of maintaining/reclaiming salvation before God.

As for Judas, why do you keep saying I can't answer than when I have, several times, in previous posts? Did you not read them or are you just choosing to pretend they don't exist?

I love this quote...

and the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly righteousnly and godly in this present world. if a man does not continue in the grace of God ( If HE does not) then he is failing of the grace of God

Right in the middle of all of that, you insert another works-salvation claim. At least you're consistent.

 

[Standing Up]

I ask you a simple question

"if you commit sin are you still of God"

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No its not thats what you try to twist it around to say.

beleivers are kept by the power of God through faith. and yes this is OUR faith in Gods work for us and in us.

If a man yeilds to the flesh as a believer and is drawn after the flesh and into sin and his heart is hardened then he can be in danger of having an evil heart of unbelief and departing from the living God (Hebrews 3;12) and as Judas did. Then the world he does are in the dead works of the flesh, even if he tries to save i himself in this unbelief it is all dead works of the flesh or the law etc. But if he has godly sorrow ( which is sorrow towards God and for breaking his law and this is shown by the true Light that lights him and exposes his sin) and this godly sorrow worth repentance unto salvation. Then he comes back into faith and God dwells in his heart then the works he does in faith are good works from god working in him. The old man can do nothing, but the new man can do all things in Christ.

If a man does not have God working in him being created in Christ jesus unto these good works then he is not in the saving faith that worketh by love.

True faith has works of God in the new man that reflect in the life he lives. These works don't save us but are evidence of what tree we are in. if a good tree we will produce good fruit if in the bad or corrupt tree of the flesh we will produce such works. God examines the hearts and sees what type of works they are.

Well what about the Holy Spirit? Is not the Holy Spirit the seal of the New Covenant? And since He is, does one loose the Holy Spirit each time one sins?

Because the seal must be broken to break the Covenant and that would mean that God leaves us. So please explain how God goes about breaking the New Covenant or we do or whatever you think happens, because there are a lot of things Jesus does at salvation that would need to be reversed, but we can start here with the seal of the New Covenant.

 

[SeventyOne]

I ask you a simple question

"if you commit sin are you still of God"

Again, back to my clarification point...

Are you asking if one was to commit one sin? Three sins? Fourteen sins? Exactly how many are we talking about here, and where is that cut-off line? Fourteen sins are ok, but fifteen sins are abominable? For example, if I were to proclaim a false works-based gospel 14 times, I'm good, but if I do it fifteen times, then I'm in trouble?

How many sins are you up to? What's your count?

Feel free to clarify your question a bit, because as written, it is not "simple", but rather it is a deceptive baiting question, like "Have you stopped beating your wife and kids yet?"

 

[ToBeLoved]

And can someone who believes salvation can be lost also address this verse:

Romans 11:29
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience,

 

[LoveofTruth]

So, in other words, you just assume it and only biased people disagree with that assumption. Understood.

Here is the clarity that hebrews 3 is speaking to believers in Christ. This is a common attempt by such as you to escape the consequence of this clear section. They try to say they are not speaking of believers. Bit this is not an honest interpretation. I find that when a person is shown error in their doctrine, especially if they have believed it for many years and rebuked the opposing side etc. it is very very very difficult for them to admit their error. they start to feel that they may not be saved and have been confused for so long. This is not the case in all instances. They have simply not rightly understood the text and the deeper aspects of the inner life and new man who can do all things. in Christ. They still look at the old man

also some are unwilling to eat that massive HUMBLE pie that they need to when they are shown their error.

ok so lets look at this section and the clarity of it

"3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
[Do you assume that a holy Brother is a saved man, the writer calls such people he speaks to BROTHERS and holy. These were his fellow brothers in Christ. he is not writing to lost men or he would not have called them holy or brothers, They are also "partakers of the heavenly calling", they could not partake of this unless they were saved, "partakers" in Greek means a sharer, partner. and the writer was not a sharer with unbelievers here but holy brethren. He also says "our profession" including them with him in the same profession of Christ Jesus. Obviously they are saved men, no doubt whatsoever. I marvel that you try to twist these text to avoid the rebuke to your doctrine]

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

[Here we se that the writer includes himself with the ones he is speaking to as belonging to Christ house. He then adds the conditional word "IF". If we hold fast, unto the end. This shows that some may not hold fast unto the end. he is saying thee is a possibility of falling away and departing from God and he explains how to them]
...
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[Clearly they are brethren as he says here and in verse 1. No doubt whatsoever. And he shows that they can depart from God through unbelief, ( not works, the works are the evidence that they have departed, the world of the flesh that is and sin and hardness of heart)]

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

[He explains how this can happen, very clearly. But you seem to be saying that he is not speaking to believers this is very wrong. You also seem to say that this hardening through sin cannot happen, contrary to the writer here]

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

[Here again the writer uses the word "WE" showing he also is included in this warning and he is a saved man, Unless you want to say he wasn't also, which would be absurd. He also says that word "partakers of Christ again", meaning a sharer or partner with Christ. Paul says we are fellow labourers with God. But he adds that conditional word again, which your camp and sect, seems to dislike it is the conditional word "IF we hold". This shows a condition and danger of not doing so. This must be held to the end. He that endures to the end the same shall be saved. ]

all clear to the unbiased reader and spiritual man

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hebrews three for all to se. Showing that he is writing to saved men and includes himself in the warning

ok so lets look at this section and the clarity of it

"3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
[Do you assume that a holy Brother is a saved man, the writer calls such people he speaks to BROTHERS and holy. These were his fellow brothers in Christ. he is not writing to lost men or he would not have called them holy or brothers, They are also "partakers of the heavenly calling", they could not partake of this unless they were saved, "partakers" in Greek means a sharer, partner. and the writer was not a sharer with unbelievers here but holy brethren. He also says "our profession" including them with him in the same profession of Christ Jesus. Obviously they are saved men, no doubt whatsoever. I marvel that you try to twist these text to avoid the rebuke to your doctrine]

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

[Here we se that the writer includes himself with the ones he is speaking to as belonging to Christ house. He then adds the conditional word "IF". If we hold fast, unto the end. This shows that some may not hold fast unto the end. he is saying thee is a possibility of falling away and departing from God and he explains how to them]
...
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[Clearly they are brethren as he says here and in verse 1. No doubt whatsoever. And he shows that they can depart from God through unbelief, ( not works, the works are the evidence that they have departed, the world of the flesh that is and sin and hardness of heart)]

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

[He explains how this can happen, very clearly. But you seem to be saying that he is not speaking to believers this is very wrong. You also seem to say that this hardening through sin cannot happen, contrary to the writer here]

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

[Here again the writer uses the word "WE" showing he also is included in this warning and he is a saved man, Unless you want to say he wasn't also, which would be absurd. He also says that word "partakers of Christ again", meaning a sharer or partner with Christ. Paul says we are fellow labourers with God. But he adds that conditional word again, which your camp and sect, seems to dislike it is the conditional word "IF we hold". This shows a condition and danger of not doing so. This must be held to the end. He that endures to the end the same shall be saved. ]

all clear to the unbiased reader and spiritual man

 

[ScottA]

In your case you are in error by believing that he who believes does not have life and is not saved as they abide in that life NOW.

I do not believe that those "who believe do not have life and are not saved as they abide in that life NOW" - you have not heard me correctly.

On the contrary, I do not "believe" but know, that those who believe are indeed saved. But some, as yourself, believe that any taste and knowledge of the Lord is the same as believing, and thus also means they are saved. That is not true. Thus you have misstated regarding Judas - who did not believe in the way that is required of the Lord, that is, without reservation. The many would-be believers are not known of the Lord, not One with the Lord, nor are they saved - yet you appear to be calling them saved, when they are not.

Jesus said without him believers can do nothing. This is only when he is IN us and we IN him. To be in Christ is to have salvation and to be made whole complete, to come from death t life

These are so very basic truths i marvel that you cannot see them.

If you believe this - why then do you consider those who are not "in" Christ, but have only come to test him, are saved? Do you not know that they only test themselves, and are found wanting of the Lord?

 

[LoveofTruth]

And can someone who believes salvation can be lost also address this verse:

Romans 11:29
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience,

speaking of the prophecies and calling of Israel in context. they are enemies for the gospel sake but for the fathers sake beloved. God still has purpose for Israel and he will accomplish that. Read the previous verses and the context of the chapter.

also if we try to apply this to the gift of salvation. God will always offer this to those who come to him by faith He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins if we confess and come to him. If they fall away and repent and come back , being converted again, they will always have Gods promise. But if they deny him and forsake him and hate the light and turn aside after satan and yield to the flesh they shall die and lose it.

and quote the verse right it does not say what you say

"..are without repentance" is the proper word there

 

[LoveofTruth]

Again, back to my clarification point...



Feel free to clarify your question a bit, because as written, it is not "simple", but rather it is a deceptive baiting question, like "Have you stopped beating your wife and kids yet?"

You are simply trying to avoid the obvious rebuke to yourself and the OSAS crowd from 1 John 3:6-9 as it says. And jesus used baiting questions as well to expose the false men.

"8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

I ask you if you commit sin are you still of God?

and can you commit sin?

 

[LoveofTruth]

If you believe this - why then do you consider those who are not "in" Christ, but have only come to test him, are saved? Do you not know that they only test themselves, and are found wanting of the Lord?

I don't consider any man that is not IN CHRIST to be saved.Only those in Christ are saved as jesus said in John 15, ( before the cross) and so for Judas or anyone else to do anything such as preach cast out devils heal the sick, etc they must be in Christ and he in them.

also many disciples went away from jesus who had life and had their names written in the Lambs book of life. The 70 that came back and had rejoiced that devils were subject to them jesus told to rejoice because there names were written in the lambs book of life. This means they were saved before the cross ( but not without it) unless you want to say they should not have rejoiced over such a thing because they were not saved, and that they were not in the Lambs book of life as jesus said they were

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is very easy to do just read the chapter, it speaks to Holy brethren , of Christ household and the writer includes himself ( a saved man ) in this warning. Only the totally biased person would miss that

and it is common for those who hold the heretical doctrine of Once Saved always saved to try and put the other side in the works for salvation camp This is wrong, i do not believe there is any thing a man can do to save himself. God offer the salvation and we must receive it, believe, have faith in Gods righteousness and work for us and in us. This faith is daily and we must continue in this faith. if not we can have en evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God.

Show me your faith with it your works and i will show you my faith by God working in me and the reflection n my life.
This is how we are justified by works as James speaks of. The works are from the new man, not the old man. The new man is in Christ created unto good works, and God works in the new man to make him perfect unto every good work. if a man walks in sin and not in the new man this is evidence that he is called and lost and in the flesh.

i ask you

if you commit sin are you still of God?

a simple yes or no is good then your explanation

and and when you are in sin can you claim to know God and be in the light?

What a silly question. Of course we are still of God even if we sin. Read what Jesus says, we have an Advocate in Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't consider any man that is not IN CHRIST to be saved.Only those in Christ are saved as jesus said in John 15, ( before the cross) and so for Judas or anyone else to do anything such as preach cast out devils heal the sick, etc they must be in Christ and he in them.

also many disciples went away from jesus who had life and had their names written in the Lambs book of life. The 70 that came back and had rejoiced that devils were subject to them jesus told to rejoice because there names were written in the lambs book of life. This means they were saved before the cross ( but not without it) unless you want to say they should not have rejoiced over such a thing because they were not saved, and that they were not in the Lambs book of life as jesus said they were

So how do you know WHO is IN CHRIST? Secondly, how do you know or we know that you are in Christ?

Such is the problem with this line of thinking. Only God knows.